Miévillians discussion

The prologue and first five chapters had me worrying a bit that this wasn't set in new Crobuzon after all, but chapter 6 soon set that right.

Those of you who had read Perdido Street Station, might have recognized Yagharek.

Well, the stage is set! I wanted to make our first thread for a reasonably small part of the book, so that readers can post their first impressions right away.

So, we still have the same creatures that we've seen in Bas-lag before--do you guys still remember the handlingers from PSS?--but now we have a mysterious man on a clay man, and we have this whispering and mind-reading which we haven't seen in any of the Bas-lag novels before.

As for chapter six, remember how Jack Half-a-Prayer had skulked around the place in PSS, and then helped Isaac's party in their big fight against the moths and the militia?

Btw, the New Quillers remind me of the that ultra rightwing group in The City and the City

Please feel free to give your impressions, people, but for this thread, let's keep it for the bits before we get to chapter 7.

To remind those of you who have already read the book, chapter 6 features the play with the puppets portraying the Jack Half-a-Prayer legend, which is then subsequently mobbed by the New Quillers and broken up by the government censors.

So, the New Crobuzon government has become more sinister than it had been in PSS, being now pretty much openly a military regime.

Hurray for authoritarianism! I've often wondered about the structure of the New Crobuzon government. The mayor (how very deceptively mundane a title!) acts as executive and if I recall he does have a cabinet of ministers, but we didn't get much more than that in Perdido Street Staton. Reference to the (presumably thoroughly rigged) suffrage lottery leads to the question of who has suffrage as a matter of course, what percentage of the population do they make up, etc. Unless I'm mistaken xenians are not included, so how much of the city's population does that disenfranchise?

I'm sure I won't find out: things are boring when they're explained in detail, after all. It has me curious all the same, though.

I didn't recognize Yagharek, by the way. Did you mean as a character in the play (the scarred man?), or a character in the book proper, Traveller?

Yes, the pock-marked man hiding his face behind a scarf, of course. Just in case there are people here who have not PSS, we'll not go into too much detail, but since you did read it IIRC, you will of course know why and will know his connection to Jack Half-a-prayer.

In later chapters other characters from PSS, like Benjamin Flex is mentioned. But let me leave that for a later thread.

Talking of which, it looks like I'm going to have to create a new thread just for you, since the suffrage lottery is mentioned in chapter 7 for the first time. :)

Shall we wait a bit for the others to catch up? ..and then discuss that in the next thread?

Didn't you have any thoughts on the first 6 chapters? (Besides that you felt we should have been told the name of the man who rides on the clay man?) Have you thought of the possibility that perhaps his name is obscured for a reason?

What did you think of the wide range of scenery in the first 5 chapters, did it work for you?

I found it a bit jumbled. One moment we're in jungle, the next in sandy soil or savannah-like grassland, and then in marshy wetlands, and then on the sea, and then in the mountains, and then in an Africa-like setting.... did CM do this to create a feeling of distance, I wonder?

...and what do you think of the "whispering" the subliminal suggestions made via telepathy? Quite an interesting way to describe sorcery, maybe?

There's actually quite a lot of packed into the first five chapters. Conspiracy, ambush, flight (the running kind), more flight (the in-the-air kind), piracy, death, lots of locales, more fighting, more running, yet more fighting, caves, golems and finally a reunion. Whew.

Speaking only for myself I found the pace of events too quick and too many details glossed over, which paradoxcially made the events themselves seem a bit boring. I wasn't sufficiently invested in the characters to really care what was going on.

The sheer number of different plot points introduced (rebels! militia! look, it's Myrshock! stealing a boat! hostile vodyanoi! friendly giants! killing militia! telepathy! handlingers! traps!) left me reeling a little. I get dizzy just thinking about it.

I'm not sure Miéville gave enough time to adequately convey either the distance or the time covered, but I have to admit I don't know what his plan is. It's easy to say "Slow down!" when you don't know how much more is coming...

I find, too, that the handlingers were a little too convenient and perhaps too powerful an enemy to be tracking our heroes. Maybe my memory fails me, but I got the impression that a) there were not many handlingers in the employ of the city and b) they were very powerful creatures, the nearest thing to a match to the slake-moths in Perdido Street Station. This would suggest that our rebels are much, much greater threat than they seem...

Really, the whole escape/adventure of the whole thing seems more fitting for the mid-point of a novel than its start. Perhaps I'm crazy, but that impression is what hits me, suddenly...

J. wrote: "There's actually quite a lot of packed into the first five chapters. Conspiracy, ambush, flight (the running kind), more flight (the in-the-air kind), piracy, death, lots of locales, more fighting..."

Yes, I think I agree with your assessment of "too much!". I'd like to add to it that I think he focuses too much on changing the landscape so much (though I guess I'd already made my feelings about that clear several times). With so much happening, which as you say, he glosses over too much, we really don't need to try and digest all that extra landscape info as well.

..which is also why I've been trying to urge the other participants on to just push on until they get to chapter 6. I suspect they are experiencing the same difficulties with the first 5 chapters... :(

Traveller wrote: "J. wrote: "There's actually quite a lot of packed into the first five chapters. Conspiracy, ambush, flight (the running kind), more flight (the in-the-air kind), piracy, death, lots of locales, mo..."
yes and yes and yes

BUT Trav,and everyone, don't you remember that whisperer from the Scar?
This whole book for me has the feel of that character
(is it the brindilow)

Brindilow? Do you mean the Grindylow, Magdelanye? Ah yes, they did whisper telepathically, I seem to remember, but they are not human... okay, but it would be too early on to discuss the identity of the "cowboy" whispersmith, Drogon, in this thread, I'd say, since it is not fully revealed to us in the first five chapters.

I meant whispering in general, as a skill. CM mentions that suggestions are made to the subliminal part of the brain, so that the whispersmith or sussurator can actually control people this way. I thought this was more interesting than having a "sorcerer" who can control someone with a "magic spell", like one tends to find in conventional fantasy.

I'm going get the next thread up soon, I promise.

I'd forgotten about the Grindylow's telepathy, their subtle influence. I wonder if it's a matter of genetics, whether this man is not quite a man. Has there been examples of true xenian hybrids?

I feel like this is starting the way most Mievilles books start - with a plunge into the deep end :-D He throws us in with hardly any air in our lungs, sink or swim. Things will only later clear up. I did enjoy the first part even though I didn't fully grasp it.

'True' xenian hybrids? Is that a trick question, J? ;)

Jeanette, I think you've got the right attitude there, one needs to hang in there at the start of most Mieville novels and just soldier on until it becomes clearer. I think The Scar and The City & The City started off easiest for me.

I got a bit caught up with RL, I apologise. Will post the next thread late tonight or early morning.

I'm feeling a bit bad that we rushed through the first five chapters so quickly. Let's recap what happened in the very first few chapters: We meet Cutter, who with a group of about five friends sets off in search of a mysterious man who has with him a Clay Man. ( We find out later that the Clay Man is a golem. )

We find out that a war is raging with Tesh, and that the militia are out in force. We hear of a Council (The titular Iron Council) and Caucus, and I don't think we have quite enough information yet to figure out how they fit in, except that our heroes are searching for the Iron Council.

Btw, those of us who are new to Bas-Lag or needed a reminder of how some of the creatures look, Derek posted a few pics for us here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

We meet some new creatures as well, the hotchi, which I still need to figure out properly for myself. Have we met these before in Bas-lag?

Three of Cutter's friends die in skirmishes with the militia and other enemies; in the first skirmish Drey is wounded and eventually succumbs to his wounds while they are in an air balloon. They are forced to eject his body which falls to a pulp far below.

Ihona is drowned by hostile vodyanoi, and Fejh, their vodyanoi friend, dies in a shoot-out with militia involving some huge overgrown cactus-people.

Traveller wrote: "I'm going to have to create a new thread just for you, since the suffrage lottery is mentioned in chapter 7 for the first time. :)"

Well, I don't think you can call anything that was mentioned in Perdido a spoiler. And I'm fairly sure it was. Didn't the journalist do a story about it?

As for why we aren't told the name of the person they're seeking—I thought that was a pretty clear indication that if you've read PSS and The Scar, you'll know him from one or both (I'm not actually sure there are any male humans who appear in both).

Traveller wrote: "'True' xenian hybrids? Is that a trick question, J? ;)"

I didn't intend it as one. I meant, rather, an actual hybrid via sexual reproduction as opposed to a Remade grafting.

arent hotchi the cactus race?

regarding whispered compulsions, (and yes thanks for correcting me, the grindylow) and that creep,that kissed the stone artifact and compelled others to do his bidding

"The Hotchi, squat and tough hedgehog man…"

I'm sure that's pretty literal. The cactus people are just Cactacae.

Some info re suffrage in NC as per Wikipedia:

Suffrage in New Crobuzon is not universal. Those who pay sufficient tax (this is not a Poll tax, rather an automatic qualification) gain suffrage automatically. Anyone else seeking the vote must enter their name into a "Suffrage Lottery", the winners of which are permitted to cast their ballot. Left-wing groups and seditionist cells believe this system is highly corrupt.

So their system of suffrage is quite similar to the Classical Greek meritocracy, and not based on race, but on wealth. A bit like the US system of "buy a politician" ? ;)

By the way, I saw in CM's dedication at the front of the book, that he mentions Zane Grey as one of his influences for this book. My older brother used to be a fan of Zane Grey's Westerns, and I'd read and enjoyed a few as a kid. I think the Western influence is already noticable in Part One of the novel, which felt a bit incongruent next to the distinct African setting.

The whispersmith somehow also reminded me of Stephen King's The Gunslinger

China also listed Jane Gaskell as an influence. He is attributed elsewhere with listing her debut novel Strange Evil as one of the top 10 examples of weird fiction.

Let's recap a bit more of the story: while all of the above-mentioned is going on, Cutter keeps hearing a strange whispering, and he and other characters are forced into certain actions at times by the whispering voice.

Later they meet up with the source of the whispering; a strange cowboy-like person who can communicate telepathically? and make suggestions to one's subconscious to force you into action.

Prior to Fejh being killed, the group finds a village of slaughtered cactus-people who had been killed by the militia. The village is then avenged by a group of cactus giants, who convene for this reason upon Cutter's instigation. Fejh dies in the shoot-out between our group and the militia, after the giant cactus-people attack the militia.

I do hope there's going to be some explanation for that bit of casual xenocide. There's no reason for the militia to have slaughtered all those cactacae, and every reason not to: after all, if they'd just gone straight past the cactacae villages, the ge'ain wouldn't have ended up slaughtering them. And there's one for the glossary: I can't find any evidence of a word "ge'ain" anywhere but in Miéville.

Yes, there is an explanation for it in Part 3, when we get back to our friends who are searching for the Iron Council. I must admit that I don't quite see the reason for the extent of the violence, it does appear as if the militia are being pretty heavy-handed, and that is one of my criticisms of this novel.

The militia are portrayed as simply black-and-white bad, and no greys, they don't seem like people. I know the Nazi's seemed like that as well, it his hard to see them as humans, but in the case of the Nazi's, it was actually a relative few that did the mass killings in the concentration camps.

Maybe the militia aren't real people, who knows, since they do appear to wear masks all the time, although the few left alive after the shooting between Cutter's gang and the militia when the ge'ain were involved, does seem to suggest that they are mostly humans.

But there's more ample opportunity to discuss this particular topic in Part 3.

Btw, when you guys are ready to move on from Part 1 in the book, the thread for part 2 is here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Let's just follow the book naturally and make that thread for Part 2: chapters 6 to 9.

I realise my mistake in wanting to cram chapter 6 in with this thread, leaving no space for the first 5 chapters.

I saw the slaughter as more of a parallel of the Vietnam war. Young men far from home, twitchy and imagining the enemy behind every tree and bush, some perhaps already mentally unstable. All it takes is one misstep and whole villages end up dead.

The war with Tesh seems to have been going on many years, so it's perhaps not a stretch to think that a regional commander, without the benefit of instant communication, would feel justified in securing his back by making sure no one lay behind him...

J. wrote: "I saw the slaughter as more of a parallel of the Vietnam war. Young men far from home, twitchy and imagining the enemy behind every tree and bush, some perhaps already mentally unstable. All it tak..."

J, if you go back to the situation early-ish in Part 3 that Judah and his gang have with the wineherds, it is explicitly explained why the cactus village was destroyed. For obviously spoilerific reasons, I don't want to go into too much detail, but I could open a thread for Part 3 though I'm not quite done with the section yet.

I haven't started the reread of 'Iron Council' - life has been very busy lately, so I just have to rely on my memory of this book.

To me, the beginning of this book was lacking something - maybe that sense of connection to a specific place that was so prominent in both 'Perdido Street Station' with New Crobuzon and 'The Scar' with eventual connection to Armada. I have noted that Miéville excels at creating extremely memorable locations that are full of life. In the early chapters of 'Iron Council', we don't have much time to connect to any of the places we wee - and we don't have much chance to connect to the characters, either (and creating strong connections between readers and characters has never been CM's forte).

But then we reenter New Crobuzon, a place on the edge, on the brink of something huge happening, where the tensions are so high that we know something is about to snap. It's like Russia a couple of decades before the Socialist revolution, like France on the brink of the French revolution. The social tensions, the politics, the stifling oppression - the atmosphere Miéville creates is filled with tense anger. And that's when I knew that I would love this book despite the earlier Western/adventure quest theme.

And the mention of Yagharek - to me, it somehow was really special. Yagharek was the only character that I felt I really connected with in 'Perdido Street Station', and the reveal of his crime and abandonment by his friends and his ultimate act that made the ending of the book so powerful (and have rise to one of my all-time favorite closing lines of a book). His mention here is so subtle - and can be easily missed if it's been a while after reading PSS or if you are not paying close attention to the book - and yet his act is so powerful, given what we know about Yagharek and what we know about the elite of New Crobuzon that lived in fear of Jack. It was a sly and tantalizing nod to the fans of PSS, and just a reminder to me of Miéville's ability to create a promise of a story with just a few lines - a story you'd love to read so much but it's only a tease.

Nataliya wrote: "I haven't started the reread of 'Iron Council' - life has been very busy lately, so I just have to rely on my memory of this book.

To me, the beginning of this book was lacking something - maybe t..."

What a wonderful post, and how nice to see you here, Nataliya! I admit that I haven't been giving very good intro's for this discussion, because we started reading in somewhat of a hurry, and there wasn't really enough time to prepare, which I deeply apologize for.

I'm very grateful to see all the thoughtful posts made nevertheless by the wonderful members of the Mievillians group. Thank you.

What a good summary you've given. The helter-skelter of the first few chapters, and then the more sombre return to NC, where the atmosphere is indeed tense and even quite desperate. I love the references you give to the French and Russian environment pre-revolution.

I must admit that although I had found Yagjharek a very poignant figure in Perdido SS, I had had a soft spot for Isaac, Lin and Dherkan as well. Although I'd found Isaac arrogant and callous at first, I liked him enough toward the end to feel very sorry for him. I never bonded quite as deeply with any of the characters from The Scar, I must say.

there really should be like options,or better yet a continuum so we could grade our agreements and dis-
agreements.I really liked a lot of Dereks comments and Nataliya's, and Traveller you do such a good job of summerizing,but please stop making me feel guilty for the rush job,which actually seems perfectly fine to me.

that said, I was shocked just now to read Nataliya's rather offhand remark that CM does not do bonding the reader with character all that well. While I would agree that his characters are often not that lovable,they often quite grow on you as you understand more how they tick. They are always,even when making only a brief appearance,even when they are mainly symbolic or archetypal, unique characters, not just variations on a mold.His insightand his brilliant analysis,are somewhat like a watermark on fine linen papyrus;and his carictures are so representative,in the end, of us.Such is his skill that I have even bonded with ant people and cactii and read pages of disgustingly violent encounters with slime.
But maybe some of us have more potential to be weird:-)

And of course,well Traveller you may remember,I identified wildly with Bellis and was deeply humiliated when she got caught up in a compulsion to spy on the lovers. She took her punishment so bravely though,I forgave her everything.
I want more of Bellis,actually,the london underground is getting moldy

Oh, yes I remember, Mags! You commented on identifying with Bellis while you were reading The Scar. I wouldn't say that I didn't identify with Bellis, just that I identified with the characters in PSS more, and quite a bit with Lin and Dherkan, I must say, even with Isaac, despite his flaws.

Not so much with Shekel and Doul, though a bit with Tanner in addition to Bellis. Do you know who I actually felt sorry for in the Scar? For The Brucolac... :P

Maybe Nataliya had meant in comparison to other fiction she had been reading, and in comparison to the places CM creates. :)

Okay, I'm going to stop worrying about having started this discussion so suddenly. We do at least have more participation than we had on The Scar, so it's okay. :)

Magdelanye wrote: "that said, I was shocked just now to read Nataliya's rather offhand remark that CM does not do bonding the reader with character all that well."

Let me explain. Just like Traveller said, it's really in comparison to the places CM creates, and in comparison to the storylines he develops. To me, most of his books have been about the stories, the plot, and the amazing character-like surroundings that become so much more than just backdrops for the story development. New Crobuzon, for instance, is a real living breathing character of PSS and IC, as is Armada in 'The Scar' or Embassytown itself, or ab-London in 'Un Lun Dun.' To me it seems that it is never the characterization the drives the story in CM's works; rather, characters exist as means to advance the plot, which is excellent if you have stories of such strength as CM writes. It just seems to me that CM spends more on creating the surroundings than focusing just on characters, on creating a larger story/bigger picture over focusing on 'small stories'.

Ok, and now gotta run to work!

Thanks for the clarification, Nataliya!

Yeah, from my perspective, it's not that CM doesn't do characterisation well (and I don't think Nataliya meant to say that), but that, more than you tend to find in most other books, (with perhaps the exception of Tolkien's Middle-earth?) the world-building is foregrounded almost to the point that the world and places in it becomes part of the cast of characters.

Also, his plotlines are quite large and overarcing and tend to span many characters. I'm reminded of George Eliot's Middlemarch

I think perhaps this explains my own dislike of The Scar. No matter how awesome Armada was, it didn't make up for the fact that I couldn't care less about any of the characters. Until you all started mentioning names, I couldn't remember one of them.

But I remember the characters from PSS, and I will remember the characters here. Judah is still pretty much a cipher at this point, but will become as fully-fleshed a character as Miéville has ever written by the end. Cutter (as far as I've got) never becomes more than an incredible drive for no more than unrequited love: but I find him admirable for such singleminded pursuit of a dream he knows is unachievable. Ori (who appears first in the next section) is like a teenager going through his adolescence at the same time as New Crobuzon is in great upheaval.

I was starting my review yesterday, and was thinking that as someone who always takes plot over character (another reason I didn't like The Scar: it barely had one), I'm stunned at how this book has dragged me in by the scruff of the neck, because of characters.

Traveller wrote: I wouldn't say that I didn't identify with Bellis, just that I identified with the characters i..."

are we enveloped in semantics here?
when I say I identify with a character, I mean that I am aware not only of an affinity,but that I believe we share similar characteristics (warts and all)I can admire or even love a character without identifying in the least.

For instance, I really did admire Lin and Yag and even (why are we reluctant to admit this Trav)developed some affection for Isaac,but I never could say that I identified with them,even as I could resonate with the situation.

And Sheckel and Tanner...hard to identify with but oddly easy to fall in love with. The Brucolic,oh,ugh.As much as CM did manage to arouse my sense of compassion,finally,reluctantly,perversely I never was comfortable with him.


Sure, Nataliya has a point about the landcapes being as vivid and essential to the books as the storylines,but not to the point where I see these elements surpassing the character development. I think his characters are awesome,never stagnant,always in the process of some transformation.

Iron Council however,as far as I am concerned,fell rather short here. Don't hold your breathe Derek,Judah never becomes much more than a cipher,Cutter is mostly redundant and Ori actually seems to change too fast to get a handle on. The only really interesting character,in my opinion, is Ann-Hari who really goes through some major changes. But we never get to know her much from inside,however much we might admire her tenacious loyalty to the IC.

The Stiltspears were fascinating,but there is no one of them in particular that engages the reader.

Magdelanye wrote: "Don't hold your breathe Derek,Judah never becomes much more than a cipher…."

I'm not—I actually think he becomes a truly fascinating character. Obviously, I disagree with you about Judah.

Magdelanye wrote: "Traveller wrote: I wouldn't say that I didn't identify with Bellis, just that I identified with the characters i..."

are we enveloped in semantics here?
when I say I identify with a character, ..."

Phew, guys, maybe we shld discuss these characters in a later thread? I'll do a fifth thread tomorrow, but thread four would also be good for now.

Magdelanye, when I say that I identified with Isaac, Lin and to a lesser extent Dherkan, I meant that I saw aspects of myself in them. I identified with many aspects of Isaac. I'm a bit of an idiot socially speaking, (I was a real dork as an early teen, and I've probably gone back to being one lately) and I think think there's a bit of a scientist's soul in me--I love to explore and experiment. I also used to care what people thought of me; though I see the fallacy of it now later in my life--as I do think Isaac also came to see eventually.

So yeah, a lot of why I liked PSS is because I saw a lot of myself in Isaac (which doesn't necessarily mean that I liked him, mind you, I know he was a jerk especially at the start) .

I identified with the artist in Lin since I'm a bit of an arty type too.

Also, I really liked Dherkan, and probably identified with her on some level too.

Funny how we all identify and feel attached to different characters. I guess CM has something for all of us.

Late to the party, but have to say I was taken aback by the swiftness and the breakneck run through the jungle and across ocean and frontiers. Yes, China is fond of dumping us in the deep end and I love that. I want to learn for myself not be told, but wow a six chapter chase was wild.

I missed the prologue, but now that I read about his mention of Zane Grey it makes perfect sense. And I do like the cowboy style sussurator. One thing I also found interesting is Cutter's party. All very different and really he's not a leader. A leader by happenstance maybe but there is no trying to make decisions together or anything. He seems like a prophet, or an elder disciple to throw in a biblical reference. Which after the New Crobuzon Wikipedia link (thanks) I'm beginning to see something more meaningful will be made of this cultish band. I also hated to see the vodyanoi die. I think their fascinating characters, like the khepri, and who wouldn't want a water sculpture.

Those of you who are farther ahead, or done, feel free to shoot holes in any of this with your blunderbusses and pepper pots :)

I think most of us felt that it started off fast though not all of us liked so much fast-moving input and so many new names to remember all at once. :P

But yeah, the 'Western' feel becomes even stronger a few chapters later, though to me, the parts that take place in New Crobuzon later on, felt more like Victorian London than anywhere around the Wild West -- than any American town really. Which is not to say that where Cutter and crew is going can't be based on the Wild West, of course.

About Cutter not being a strong leader-- I think you are right there. This impression might even become stronger much later on, so well spotted.

Cutter never wanted to be a leader. He left New Crobuzon on his own and, while he thought others would want to come with him, he wasn't sure until they actually showed up. I'd say "elder disciple" is a very good way of putting it.

There's certainly a lot of Western in this—another checkbox for China in his list of genres written.