On Paths Unknown discussion

Hello everyone! I was wondering if 18/20 July would be okay for most people? If we start on 18 or 19 July, then we'll have some weekend time for it. But it's up to you guys, I'm sure we can wait for people who would still like to get hold of a copy. :)

As I have said already in the notifications, one of the reasons why I would like to discuss this book, is not just because it is an interesting example of Magical Realism, but because the book appears on the surface to be pro-patriarchy in a way that has inflamed passions from certain feminist quarters, which I think would make good material for discussion.

Please feel free to start commenting on this thread right away, this is the "conveners thread" where we can make all our logistical arrangements and so forth. :)

I would love to join for this. The book description sounds interesting and I love Magic Realism.

Traveller wrote: "Hello everyone! I was wondering if 18/20 July would be okay for most people? If we start on 18 or 19 July, then we'll have some weekend time for it. But it's up to you guys, I'm sure we can wait..."

I am totally down for this and excited too. I love " Water for Chocolate" minus the patriarchy of course ;)

All works for me.

Disha wrote: " I love " Water for Chocolate" minus the patriarchy of course ;) ..."

Well... it would be interesting to discuss how we feel Esquivel treats this patriarchal society that she finds herself in - I feel she might have worked with it quite imaginatively. Let's dig into the issue in depth as we go along and find out.

Glad to have y'all aboard, Yolande, Disha and Michele! :)

PS. Warning: readers new to magical realism might feel a bit taken aback with the way that the novel starts out. It might feel a bit strange, but hang in there, you'll soon get it in your stride.

I personally adore magic realism, but then, I happened to stumble on the short stories of Gabriel Garcí­a Márquez at an early age already, so I got sold on it at a young and malleable age.

Not a big fan of magical realism, so doing it with a group would be great.

Ruth wrote: "Not a big fan of magical realism, so doing it with a group would be great."

Yes, I thought MR itself would make for another nice topic of conversation. :) It would be nice to have you aboard again, Ruth!

Thanks! :)

Now where did my copy go?

A definition of MR :
http://www.britannica.com/art/magic-r...

and some interesting articles about definitions of MR and how it was and is now defined:

http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/margin/n...

http://www.writing-world.com/sf/reali...

http://www.public.asu.edu/~aarios/mag...

Despite all the waffling about it, I think that one must realize that Magic Realism is not so much about the fantastical rather than that it is a form of Munchausenistic expressionism. It is telling tall stories to convey feelings and symbolism. There is lots of fiction nowadays that claims to be MR, but people like Esquivel, Allende and Marquez started the genre off, and so you can be sure that what we have here is "authentic" MR.

We can look at its characteristics as we progress with the novel, and indeed, one starts to see examples of it right off the bat as the novel starts off already.

Traveller wrote: "Disha wrote: " I love " Water for Chocolate" minus the patriarchy of course ;) ..."

Well... it would be interesting to discuss how we feel Esquivel treats this patriarchal society that she finds h..."

Absolutely. One of the ways feminists dismantle patriarchy is through rebel from within the system and I think you are right in saying that Esquivel might be doing that. We can discuss this more when the book discussion starts.

One of the reasons I do love the book is because of it's magical realism of course and the triumph of love against odds. That's the romantic in me! Hahah! Thanks for the introduction and links to Magical Realism, it will really help for those reading this type of literature for the first time.

It's a good time for a reread for me. Haven't read it during the current millennium. But I do remember it was a striking piece of writing.

Trinity wrote: "It's a good time for a reread for me. Haven't read it during the current millennium. But I do remember it was a striking piece of writing."

Hi Trinity, and welcome! I think this is your first post here on Paths? I took the liberty of looking at your profile, in case we'd had contact before and I'd just forgotten, and when looking at your author's list, I thought you'd fit right in here. :)

Hello everybody! I hope the extreme domesticity of the opening hasn't put you off - to me Esquivel manages to weave magic into her kitchen, but this extreme focus on the kitchen also affords an intimate view of Mexican womanhood. :)

I quote from "enotes" :

According to Laura Esquivel, the inspiration behind Como Agua Para Chocolate /Like Water for Chocolate is her own experiences growing up in Mexico, where she and her grandmother lived close enough to create a very strong bond.

In typical Latin tradition, women are mostly bonded in the kitchen. The sharing and preparation of family recipes is more than just a demonstration of love for food and cooking, but a way to solidify the bonds among female family members.

But Esquivel has yet another interesting take on food and the male/female relationship. According to her, cooking food is a way for the female to penetrate the male. (Via the food he ingests.) True, if you think about it, and an interesting way of putting things! :D Only problem with the image is that females also eat...

Also, a little factoid I had not been aware of previously:
I had always thought the title of the book means that you were expecting chocolate but got water instead. (Which can fit in with the context of the novel).

However, the title of the book appears much more feisty than I had always thought.
In Mexico, hot drinking chocolate is made with water and proper chocolate, not milk and powder. The water is brought to a boil and then slabs of chocolate are melted into it.

An alternate interpretation of the saying "like water for chocolate" is to be like water that is hot enough to receive the chocolate (when preparing boiling water for drinking chocolate).

This would fit in with the traditional Mexican saying "Como agua para chocolate". Some sources say it is a simile for describing a state of passion or sexual arousal (i.e. 'hot and ready'), but other sources say it tends to denote anger (boiling point).

Probably the best overarching explanation is that it is used to describe a very "hot" situation or problem. It could be a hot discussion, a hot relationship, anything that implies a lot of passion.

Let's discuss only chapter one and initial impressions in this opening thread, and then I will make more threads for discussion so that we can avoid spoilers to those just starting off with the book. :)

So how do you guys feel? Find it a bit overwhelming? Anybody here that's new to MR?

Sounds great to me. I'll finish chap. 1 asap.

I love the multiple meanings of like water for chocolate. I think I will start using that phrase.

It seems to me that it can have all the meanings in Spanish that "I am really hot" has in English.

Loved One Hundred Years of Solitude when I was very young so am a fan of MR.

First chapter is great. I grew up in a family obsessed with cooking and food and gardening so I really like reading about those things.

There is a lot going on in that short chapter. Very rich.

I think I have either seen this movie? or read this book before?

The onion on the head superstition is also an Italian superstition. I was cooking with an Italian friend once and she put onion on her head. When she explained why I just burst out laughing. She was just out of college and she really believed that that would prevent her from crying from the onion. Her female relatives must have done this her whole life.

It is very strange to come from my background and look up and suddenly see my cooking partner with a big chunk of onion on her head.

I guess I was laughing/crying.

That's great, Michele!
Yes, there is a film about the book, but I found it wasn't all that well acted... :P But I think that might just be me.

Regarding the onion - well, yeah, I love onions to eat but they don't smell so great, so I'd really not like to have my hair smelling of onion.. :p ...tho they make me cry as well.

I'm finding the mother very unfairly cruel to wards Tita. Maybe she connotes the death of her husband with Tita, because he died more or less when she was born?

I've read the first two chapters, and I love it so far. I love the focus on food, I love the setting, and I love that it's a love story. It really manages to transport you to another place and time, and yet the partial recipes are familiar and comfortable. Very, very nice.

Yes, the mother is horrible in the first chapter. And you could be right, Trav, that she blames Tita for the father's death.

Well... I don't mean to say that she quite blames Tita, but she did go through a very bad time when Tita was born/her husband died, to the point that her milk dried up... so maybe she simply never bonded positively with Tita...

Puddin Pointy-Toes wrote: " I love the focus on food, ..."
Glad you are enjoying it, Puddin!
I read an interesting remark on cooking yesterday: Cooking is basically a point of transition between nature and culture. We take elements from nature and we fiddle with them and sometimes even manage to turn them into works of art! :D

But also, consider how much each ethnicity and region's cooking is part of their culture - and also a defining feature; I mean, people will say "We're going to have Chinese tonight. Or: "We're going to have Mexican tonight". Statements like those sometimes conjure up views of cannibalism in my mind, with a Chinese or Mexican person merrily bubbling away in the pot! XD

Oh, and here is the thread for continuing to chapters 2, 3 and 4 : https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Traveller wrote: "However, the title of the book appears much more feisty than I had always thought.
In Mexico, hot drinking chocolate is made with water and proper chocolate, not milk and powder. The water is brought to a boil and then slabs of chocolate are melted into it.

An alternate interpretation of the saying "like water for chocolate" is to be like water that is hot enough to receive the chocolate (when preparing boiling water for drinking chocolate).
"

I have to admit, aside from being annoyed with the title because it wasn't immediately clear, I mostly ignored it. Thank you, Traveller, for the explanation. The latter makes a lot of sense.

Traveller wrote: "I'm finding the mother very unfairly cruel to wards Tita. "

I too find the mother cruel at times, and yet at times is feels so familiar. One does exactly what one is told and life is smooth and one feels that one is a part of something other families don't have. This line in particular rings true to me: In the De la Garza family, one obeyed—immediately.

And once you do, everything is fine. Unfortunately, I also had a stubborn, questioning streak.

I had to laugh with this line: "Your ma talks about being ready for marriage like she was dishing up a plate
of enchiladas! And the worse thing is, they’re completely different! You can’t just switch tacos and
enchiladas like that!”

We ate Mexican once a week, like clockwork, and it was the highlight of the week of dinners. They completely different. Personally, I can't stand tacos, but enchiladas are my second favorite Mexican dish (with chili rellenos as the first, of all food, bar none).

I find nothing familiar about Tita's mother. My mother is kind and loving and fair and rational and wants only the best for me. She is the complete opposite of this bitter, domineering, unfeeling, cruel, arbitrary, and above all selfish woman. If I had a mother like Tita's, I'm sure I would hate her to my core. I'm fortunate that instead I have the mother I do.

It is indeed curious, Traveller, how a society's food tends to define it most strongly, especially from the outside looking in. I would admit to having eaten a few Indians and Japanese and Mexicans and Italians, but that would be rather impolitic. ;)

It's curious, too, how Anglo-colonial societies don't seem to have as strong a food identity. The US has the hamburger, I suppose, but that's a commercial development, and what of (English) Canada or Australia? One does not go out for Australian food, at least not around here. Perhaps since I'm not on the outside it's harder for me to evaluate my own food culture.

Puddin Pointy-Toes wrote: "I find nothing familiar about Tita's mother. My mother is kind and loving and fair and rational and wants only the best for me. She is the complete opposite of this bitter, domineering, unfeeling, ..."

Ruth wrote: "I too find the mother cruel at times, and yet at times is feels so familiar. One does exactly what one is told and life is smooth and one feels that one is a part of something other families don't have. This line in particular rings true to me: In the De la Garza family, one obeyed—immediately. "

You're very lucky, Puddin. My father did want "the best" for us, but what HE thought what was best, and he was very autocratic, so I completely understand where you're coming from, Ruth. My father even used to crp on me for holding my knife and fork too forward when little hands were still struggling to get the hang of these big eating utensils. ..and like you, I had a rebellious streak, but my parents didn't take kindly at all to open defiance.

Hm, I suppose there are a few factors to mother's cruelty beyond the fact that she obviously never bonded well with Tita.

The ostensible reason for her forbidding Tita from marrying is "an old family tradition". I wish we had Mexican people reading this with us to give us a bit of background, but I do know from my other Latin-American reading that tradition does tend to play a very strong role in Latin-America, at least still in the previous century.

And also, maybe she is indeed so bitter at having her own husband die, that she cannot abide other people being happy in love, which doesn't make her a very nice person in my book... :(

Ruth wrote: "Personally, I can't stand tacos, but enchiladas are my second favorite Mexican dish (with chili rellenos as the first, of all food, bar none). ..."

I'm not all that much into Mexican as I generally find it too spicy too handle, but I do love enchiladas.

Hmm. Though Mama shows her inflexible adherence to "the rules" already when she makes Tita undo her perfect sewing. I can't decide if she's just generally inflexible, or if she is specifically picking on Tita... what do you guys think? Is it just with Tita, or is Mama Elena just like that generally? ..and why is she like that?

...or shall we let this question stew for a while and discuss it in a later thread? Maybe better so, so let's hang on to that thought?

Puddin Pointy-Toes wrote: "It's curious, too, how Anglo-colonial societies don't seem to have as strong a food identity. The US has the hamburger, I suppose, but that's a commercial development, and what of (English) Canada or Australia? One does not go out for Australian food, at least not around here. Perhaps since I'm not on the outside it's harder for me to evaluate my own food culture. ..."

Maybe Anglo, French and German cooking is too boring to define it as "other". XD

I happen to adore Greek food, btw.

But yeah, I suspect you're right in that we're too much inside the wood to see past the trees.

Oh, and talking about f00d, what did y'all think of:

After Nacha had been put in charge of Tita’s culinary education, she not only ate ordinary food, she also ate jumil bugs, maguey worms, crayfish, tepezcuintle pigs, armadillos, and other things.. :O

And of:
With that Tita fled from the kitchen into the room where Chencha and Gertrudis were embroidering the sheet for the wedding night. It was a white silk sheet, and they were embroidering a delicate pattern in the center of it. This opening was designed to reveal only the bride’s essential parts while allowing marital intimacy.

Interestingly, that passage is followed by a passage that sets the novel in a specific historical era: The Mexican revolution.

The revolution made it impossible to travel in safety, which is why, if it hadn’t been for a Chinaman who dealt in smuggled goods, it would have been impossible to obtain the material [...] This Chinaman was a crafty fellow: he accepted notes issued by the revolutionary army in the North as payment for the merchandise he sold in the capital,...

The Mexican revolution took place between 1910 and 1920, so now we know the novel is set somewhere in that period of time, and I guess strict adherence to tradition and rather... er.... Victorian customs and mores would not be so out of place in this time period.

Apparently armadillo tastes like chicken...

Puddin Pointy-Toes wrote: "Apparently armadillo tastes like chicken..."

Hmm, that video is pretty humorous at the start, but very interesting if you watch the whole thing and witness how monopolist corporatism strikes yet again to keep the poor poor and the rich rich. :(

Traveller wrote: "After Nacha had been put in charge of Tita’s culinary education, she not only ate ordinary food, she also ate jumil bugs, maguey worms, crayfish, tepezcuintle pigs, armadillos, and other things."

For me, it depends on how it's prepared and the atmosphere of the party. For example, next month is the time for traditional crayfish parties here in Sweden, as well 'stinky fish' banquets. We are certainly looking forward to them. ;)
No, seriously! The food is great, and of course, the company helps. I wouldn't eat it by myself.

Traveller wrote: "Puddin Pointy-Toes wrote: "Apparently armadillo tastes like chicken..."

Hmm, that video is pretty humorous at the start, but very interesting if you watch the whole thing and witness how monopolis..."
Yup, John Oliver, as usual, hits the nail on the head.

Ruth wrote: "For me, it depends on how it's prepared and the atmosphere of the party. For example, next month is the time for traditional crayfish parties here in Sweden, ..."

I absolutely adore prawns, shrimps and Crayfish, and Crayfish Thermidor is one of my fave dishes ever!

Just a reminder: The next thread is here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Traveller wrote: "Hello everybody! I hope the extreme domesticity of the opening hasn't put you off - to me Esquivel manages to weave magic into her kitchen, but this extreme focus on the kitchen also affords an i..."

I am sorry I havent been active on this discussion as I am studying for exams.
However, to your comment Traveller on the domesticity, I think what Esquivel is showing through the book is how women can rebel from within the system. How they can use patriarchal institutions like the idea of domesticity to challenge the dominant ideology. Also, the whole baking and cooking trope used throughout the book shows us how women " code" to challenge and rebel.

Disha wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Hello everybody! I hope the extreme domesticity of the opening hasn't put you off - to me Esquivel manages to weave magic into her kitchen, but this extreme focus on the kitchen..."

Ah, yes, sorry, I happened to read your post that broaches this subject in another thread first, and so I replied there basically what you're saying here.

Instead of staying with the patriarchal system and playing according to its rules, like many modern women do, and which I myself have tended to do because I simply actually like mixing the traditional male role with the traditional feminine role for myself (as in the best of both worlds, Tita shows us how a naturally very traditional femininity can also rebel and challenge.

...but to be quite honest, the roles still feel very tightly constrained to me throughout the novel. I would have liked to have seen a character that can cook AND fight; that can knit AND be authoritative, etc.

Maybe this should rather be discussed in a later thread, in case I might drop spoilers from later in the novel. :)

In any case, sorry, I read your posts from back to front, starting with the last thread and coming back to the first one last. :P

Traveller wrote: "Disha wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Hello everybody! I hope the extreme domesticity of the opening hasn't put you off - to me Esquivel manages to weave magic into her kitchen, but this extreme focus ..."

Hahahhahah. It is OK Traveller. I think I was confused as well. I just read your posts and answered them :) No problem.

What you say about Tita NOT being able to " cook and fight" again highlights the either/ or mentality that exists in our society. It can never be AND for women, it always is either/ or which of course is as grossly unfair as it is patriarchal.

I just wanted to say something about the title and since it was mentioned here this is probably
the best place to put it. I was confused when I read the title "like water for chocolate" and couldn't figure out what it meant until I saw that the book's previous title was "like water for hot chocolate". That made me finally understand that it wasn't about hard chocolate which made the role of "water" finally clear to me. I don't know if it was the translator or author that changed the English title but I wonder why it was changed?

No idea, but the "drinking vs eating chocolate" definitely makes a big difference in understanding the title, I feel.

Hi, Andy! Most of us have gone through this one already, but the threads are still (and will indefinitely remain) open to be read and posted in at your leisure. :)

We discussed chapter 1 in this thread that we are in now, and then the discussion goes on to the next 3 chapters here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

...but there are spoilers, so best wait until you have the book and have started reading!