SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Does anyone else get annoyed that bookstores and libraries (and even this group!) group Sci-Fi and fantasy together? I have found that people that like Sci-Fi rarely like Fantasy and vice-versa. Why do book stores and libraries group them together?

There should be a Sci-Fi section and a Fantasy section. The Urban Fantasy genre is really taking off (and I myself read my share of it) but it is TOTALLY taking over the sci-fi section at bookstores. ARRGHH! It is nothing like Sci-Fi and so should not be in the Sci-Fi section!

Bookstores and libraries, please separate Sci-Fi, Fantasy, and Urban Fantasy into 3 separate sections!

Rant over:-)

This was discussed on some group here, last year I think. I agree with you, Michael, though most thought it made sense to lump them. The usual reasons for lumping was that many books have features of both or the genre is debatable. Like the Pern series. McCaffrey said they were SF, but to me most of the series is pure Fantasy and I put them all in Fantasy. Other examples were given. I don't have any trouble putting the large majority of books in one category or another.

What really bothers me is Amazon. They use the Science Fiction and Fantasy category, but many pure SF or Fan are categorized as Literature and Fiction or even Horror, so one cannot use the category in a search and expect to get everything, even from 1 author. Also, my database downloads data from Amazon based on ISBN# and I always have to change the genre. Not a big problem, unless I am doing multiple books at once.

I don't do physical bookstores, as the nearest is an hours drive and I tend to read authors or long series in toto, so haunt the online used bookstores. I don't much like Urban Fantasy, Dystopian SF or Alternative History. I like to get away from the Earth and usually the Solar System.

I beleive it is because of the speculative fiction aspect.

Some Scifi Like Startrek is so advanced that the Tech Is just like magic. The difference being that we pretend that it is Technology.

The Fringe TV show is a great example of this it is pure fantacy because of how bad the science it.

Hense speculative fiction. What if this were possible.
Magic/high tech Which is it.

I find the Sci/Fi / Fantasy section frustrating as well - however, I think it's inevitable. There are simply too many books that can't be put solely in one or the other. I find it more frustrating how many people don't think there is any difference between SciFi and Fantasy. They are distinct genres with multiple subgenres even though they overlap. It would be nice to see the bookstores make a bit more effort but it's unlikely to happen

Your question brings up one of the reasons I like GoodReads so much. It can be hard to find just what I'm in the mood for when browsing the shelves at a library or bookstore. And very time-consuming. But here I can read reviews or see the "people who have read this book also read these books" feature and then go looking for specific books. I've been in the mood for either urban fantasy or pure sci-fi lately, but not otherwordly fantasy, not sci-fi based on wars and battles, etc, etc. Knowing what I'm looking for (and reserving it in advance) has really removed the guesswork and helped me come home with books I know I will enjoy. And some books I never would have found just by browsing.

I must be in the minority then that think there is no ambiguity between a Sci-Fi book and a Fantasy book. It is either sci-fi or fantasy.

Just because a very minor number of books could conceivably be considered sci-fi or fantasy doesn't mean ALL sci-fi/fantasy books should be lumped into a single section.

I guess it is possible that the kind of sci-fi I like is so far into the realm of sci-fi that I don't see the books that sort of span both genres. (I also read urban fantasy but that doesn't mean I want it in the sci-fi section).
Furthermore, no matter how you feel about lumping sci-fi/fantasy into a single section surely we can all agree that Urban Fantasy should NOT be in the sci-fi/fantasy section.

I was deeply disappointed when I went to Borders the other day to find that I couldn't just browse Science Fiction books and maybe find a new author I hadn't read (or just something that looked interesting) because the entire section was taken over by Urban Fantasy and regular Fantasy.

Michael, I think the problem you had at Borders isn't because the two genres are in the same section. The problem is that stores just aren't carrying as much science fiction. Fantasy is king right now and finding good, new SF in the stores is extremely difficult. Thanks to Twilight, vampires have overtaken the entire bookstore.

surely we can all agree that Urban Fantasy should NOT be in the sci-fi/fantasy section.

That is certainly an odd assertion. I can think of no other place to put Charles de Lint, Emma Bull, and Terri Windling.

Whether Science Fiction and Fantasy should be lumped or not, I think the following statement

I have found that people that like Sci-Fi rarely like Fantasy and vice-versa.

does not hold very well. The vast majority of people I've known who were fans of one, tended to be fans of the other. There are certainly those who only like one or the other, but there tends to be a lot of overlap in taste.

I think the reasons they tend to be lumped together is partly historical (both started out heavily as part of the non-mainstream "pulp" area) and because there were a number of early authors who wrote both and stores like to lump books by the same author together. Hell, Isaac Asimov mysteries are often found in the Science Fiction section, even if they have no SF in them, because that's where readers expect to find Asimov. George R.R. Martin wrote primarily science fiction and horror for many years; his big writing now is all fantasy. Sellers want people to be able to find all of his work in one place and not have to bounce around from spot to spot in the store, because it's less likely the average browsing patron will discover (and buy) his other works if they're not all next to each other.

One could ask why some stores have a "horror" section while others mix them into "fiction" and others into the "scifi/fantasy" section.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I think there's some reasonable explanations as to why it's been that way historically. Online booksellers, at least, *should* (which doesn't mean they do) be able to cross-reference everything across multiple narrower categories, allowing for much more specific searching (just the way you can with GoodReads shelves). How well they do this depends on the quality of the data and who is doing the categorization.

Hmmm.. How to start - first - Sherri. I am an author - PLEASE never lump me in with a publisher again. NO ONE i know that is also a published writer likes the publisher, or agrees with many decisions made by publishers.

Why do we get lumpage? Easy. Branding. Publishers want to spend as few dollars as possible on marketing books, so they rely on lumping as large a group of books together as possible to tone down marketing on single authors/books.

If sci-fi and fantasy weren't together, a reader would have to go to two sections instead of one, and that would cut down impulse buys.

It might seem like I'm a bit jaded, but its the truth. I've had publishers throw my script out because my writing plan has me jumping genres :) I was told 'We'll publish you, once you stick to a genre.' Luckily I didn't listen to them :p

Micheal - New Authors aren't getting picked up. Thats why :p One house, (bantam?) can't remember who it was at the moment, flat out said that they aren't signing any new authors for the next several years. Most other houses refuse to put a single marketing dollar behind the few newbies they do sign.

Seriously though - the categories? Its about 'walk by branding' which is why at a video store you usually find 'sci-fi / horror', while fantasy is usually mixed in with action, drama, or comedy, depending on the movie.

It's been so long since I've seriously shopped in a bookstore. I usually go when I just have to get out of the house or have a craving for cheesecake. It shows how much online shopping has taken over my life in the last decade.

That is one thing I like about Amazon, since the shelves are all virtual, the books can be tagged with whatever you want. There are plenty of books that are considered romance novels by traditional bookstores, but have enough of a regular fantasy storyline to be put on that shelf. (But hey the protagonist is a girl and falls in love, so guess where traditional bookstores put it.)

I'm one of the people who cross genres and read authors that wander back and forth across them. Where would you put Sheri S. Tepper? Her books have strong fantasy elements (fantastical creatures), but also sci-fi elements (set in the future/interplanetary travel) and deal with some deep philosophical issues (a hallmark of some sci-fi), but some people would lump her books strictly into fantasy because, hey, no laser battles or 15 page descriptions of how the engine works.

There are also some troglodytes wandering this earth who think sci-fi is for boys and fantasy for girls.

I really don't see them as separate genres, they are really both speculative fiction. Sci-fi frequently focuses on the future and technology as the source of problems & answers, Fantasy can focus on the past and magic as the source & answer. But the really good stuff is asking the same questions and both use alternate creatures to get away with asking the uncomfortable questions. It's just when the book uses androids to talk about racism it's considered sci-fi but when it's elves we stick it in fantasy. But if it's elves with guns, we're playing Shadowrun. :)

Lara Amber

I get tired of them lumping horror with all of the above.

It's all Speculative Fiction though, and many stories either cross genre or at least have mixed elements. Horror is not usually a stand alone category and often has fantasy elements, if only in the choice of supernatural or mythological bad guys. Either that or it's serial killer/cop action story, alternate reality/history(like Jack the Ripper stories) or survival horror.

Like I said: mixed elements. A story is so hard to place in only one category. It can be done with high fantasy, but by then sellers are lumping high fantasy with other types of fantasy, and there you have the cross genres again, so it all blends.

I just wish sellers would start with one category: Speculative Fiction, and then list books and other media under subcategories of Spec Fic. They prolly don't to save time, money ect.

I'm still laughing at Sherri's "genre ghetto" comment, what a great phrase. So, to sum up a little, it would be cool if bookstores could have a section for every kind of book we like and have a copy of books that cross genres in each section, but since it's impossible, they do the best they can to direct people to where they think they will find books they want to purchase. And understanding that doesn't make it less frustrating. Especially for people who prefer books that aren't being published or publicized as much ("pure" sci-fi) who have a hard time finding what they want. And as much as I'm an online shopper now, it's not the same as picking up a book and flipping through it, so I get the frustration. I just don't think there is an easy, or evidently money-making, answer.

Peter, many of the published authors I know do like the publisher. Some of them are publishers, especially in the small press. My publisher,Janrae Frank, for example. Janrae started out in publishing thirty years ago with a sale to Amazons, the DAW anthology edited by Jessica Amanda Salmonson, which went on to win the 1980 World Fantasy Award for best anthology.

Morrigan Books, Creative Guy Publishing, to name a few.

I have no problem with scifi and fantasy being grouped together, since so many do cross the line. As several of the above posts state they are all speculative fiction, the big What if.

Sandi wrote: "Thanks to Twilight, vampires have overtaken the entire bookstore."

Vampires were big in paranormal romance long before Twilight. Not that I would call the creatures in Twilight 'vampires' either. In the name of 'creativity' and 'innovation' and 'originality' some authors get so far from the original model that they may as well have created a new type of alien/creature. They only call it 'vampire' because that's a neat conceptual niche for the lazy reader.

Like Susie and many other authors, I also like my publisher. They've been wonderful to me so here's a big shout-out to Anthony Verrechia et al. at Avari Press.

My Griffin's Daughter trilogy is an example of the cross-genre dilemma.
The books definitely contain familiar fantasy tropes--magic, good vs.evil, etc.--but they are also classic romances, especially the first one of the series. Where to put them? The publisher classifies them as fantasy/romance, which is how I think of them and how I promote them, but when I do a search on Amazon, they are classified as fantasy. If my series ever gets purchased by any of the major chains--which may not happen given the fact that big stores virtually ignore anything put out by small, indie presses, but that's a subject for another thread--then they will almost certainly be placed in the Fantasy catagory, despite their strong romantic elements.

In all honesty, I'd rather see bookstores get rid of genre divisions instead of creating more. Sometimes it gets ridiculous and I'm walking back and forth between Horror, SF/F, Mystery, and regular fiction while looking for a specific book. And it's always confusing when a bookstore separates out Horror or Mystery and I don't realize it because the previous bookstore I was in didn't. And then there was the time that I didn't buy the The Amber Spyglass for weeks because I kept checking the YA section of various bookstores, which is where the first two books in the trilogy were. Ends up being that book 3 was shelved with adult SF/F books.

Line 'em all up by alpha-author and forget the distinctions, I say! (half in jest, half in all seriousness).

I've never heard the term "urban fantasy" before (I'm an engineer, shoot me), but it seems like the science fiction genre gets intentionally blurred--particularly with western, mystery, and adventure themes (for example, stargate seems to owe more than a passing nod to H Rider Haggard). The idea of genre is clearly a construct, and so it's understandably weak. I'm pretty new to genre fiction anyway, and I've only had the briefest tastes outside what I would call science fiction.

So what is the essence of fantasy? For me, the ambience always seems vaguely medieval (of the books that I recognize as fantasy, I’ve only read Tolkein, LeGuin’s Earthsea books, one Jack Vance novella that was passed to me by a student, and the Tigana book last month). It seems to me that fantasy ignores the reader’s current reality, except for an occasional, implicit reference through the veil of time (mukashi mukashi; once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away).

For me, the most obvious distinction between science fiction and fantasy is that in science fiction, the source of power has to be plausible and prosthetic, whereas the source of power in fantasy is less sharply defined and more internal.

susie wrote: "I just wish sellers would start with one category: Speculative Fiction, and then list books and other media under subcategories of Spec Fic. They prolly don't to save time, money ect."

I've thought the same for quite a while. There is so much cross and blur between Speculative Fiction's sub genres that it would make a lot of sense to me.

Peter wrote: "If sci-fi and fantasy weren't together, a reader would have to go to two sections instead of one, and that would cut down impulse buys."

I think there is a lot of truth to this observation. While I rarely impulse buy when on-line, I often impulse buy when in the store. I'll be looking for one book and then have another catch my eye because it happens to be shelved in the same section.

I have to say that I quite like the idea of a large Speculative Fiction section. It would bring all Scifi / Fantasy etc. in under the one umbrella while still providing a distinction from General Literary Fiction.

Initially, I thought I would enjoy more genre breakdown in bookstores but having thought on it a bit, I realized that the more genres / sections there are the harder it is to find the book I’m looking for! So I’d rather a few large, broadly divided sections then multiple sections where I’m traipsing all over the store looking for one book that fits in multiple genres

Libby wrote: "Peter wrote: "Initially, I thought I would enjoy more genre breakdown in bookstores but having thought on it a bit, I realized that the more genres / sections there are the harder it is to find the book I’m looking for!"

Not only that, but you're also more likely to see and try things you'd usually never run across.

I personally have never understood the tight I'll only consider such and such kind of books. I have a friend who will only read a handful of horror authors and what I call vampire romances. I've read a number of books I think she would like but she'll never even consider them.

I've another who says she despises Fantasy/Science fiction. She's never actually tried them before. She did love and read Harry Potter after having seen the first movie, but she still insists she hates and will not enjoy anything fantasy.

I guess I got into this ramble because I was thinking about people saying they'll read one sub genre of speculative fiction but not others. Refusing fantasy because its all elves and magic or refusing science fiction because its all big space ship battles.

Oh, I should add, most people I know (in person) who like one sub genre of speculative fiction like the other sub genres as well. I do know some who don't, but they are very rare in my experience.

I often shop in acutally bookstores--used bookstores. I hate paying full price if I do no t have to.

Almost all used bookstores in this city put fantasy and sf and horror together, alphabetically by author.

I just brownse until I find something that I like. I often discovered older authors I missed first time around. I live trying anew author in a used bookstore first. If I like them, I can look for more of that authors books. If not, I've spent $2 to find I did not like an author, not $7.

I surely do agree with Sandi though--I'd like to see some new sf beside vampires!!

I've discussed this topic often in various forums. I personally am one of the people who "hate" them being combined. For the most part I don't like sci-fi (a few exceptions for Asimov.

I find it annoying to "hunt" through both together and would really like them separated.

I'm probably the odd duck out the bunch here but I think that they should eliminate all the useless labels they put on Fiction. Since most books blur the borders anyway and trying to define a pure Sci-Fi/Fantasy/Horror could be debated forever. With modern technology I don't see the need to keep arranging books with broad sweeping genre labels that do no justice to the reader or the author trying to sell the book in the first place.

Interesting Jerrod....I'm going to have to noodle on that a bit - So only organize on author? What if you want to find a "new author" - how would you for instance find a fantasy author if ALL categories were eliminated?

The amazon model?

If you like author X, author Y & Z show up on your page because a high percentage of people who liked author X also like Y & Z?

Search by keyword tags? That would be fun to see what are the weirdest keyword searches you can do.

Lara Amber

For a while over here Libraries used a system of icons to indicate genre. They were all the usual catergories, but as they were just small square labels placed on the spine, it was common to have multiple labels (up to 5 or more) giving at a glance a pretty good picture of the book's place in things.

I don't know what the system was called, or why it disappeared, but I found it to be one of the best indicators of a book's content. I miss it (although it was, as always, dependent on the person evaluating the book)

Pat Whitaker.

I like the tag model, since it broadens the scope of what can be included and excluded depending on what you are looking for. You can still have sections, like New Releases, heck make one for new authors or have a tag of first time authors published in the last year or so.

I only bring up the no labels because I've been able to get many of my reading friends into 'my' genre's of books because I don't have my personal library labeled or organized in a genre type fashion. Now they are getting exposed to possibilities they might not have considered because they held some type of prejudice or assumption about a certain genre. But I'm just as guilty of doing that as any other person.

Oohhhh I'm on board the tagging model definitely sounds like a good approach.

I'm going to share a humorous anecdote now, related to the topic.

The Ultimate Bookstore Schizophrenia....

I was hunting for a particular author (Jeff Long) and couldn't find many of his books. Upon asking for help, and looking him up in the store's computer, we discovered him in...

Sci-fi/fantasy, Horror, Literature, and Fiction. 4 sections to hunt down all of his books... Yet all of his books are basically Micheal Chriton with mysticism thrown in (and slightly better writing quality).

Jerrod wrote: "I'm probably the odd duck out the bunch here but I think that they should eliminate all the useless labels they put on Fiction. Since most books blur the borders anyway and trying to define a pure..."

I agree with you. I gave up trying to separate my library into more than 'Fact' or 'Fiction' years ago. I even have books that I feel blur that line; philosophy, religion & mythology along with the better historical novels.

I have created a bookshelf for my daughter & I that is vampire/paranormal/romance/urban fantasy stuff. We've argued about some of it. She doesn't think P.N. Elrod's vampire books belong there along with the Sookie Stackhouse, Anita Blake & Mercy Thompson books.

Jerrod wrote: "I'm probably the odd duck out the bunch here but I think that they should eliminate all the useless labels they put on Fiction. Since most books blur the borders anyway and trying to define a pure..."

I have always thought this! Modern tech has allowed us to search and sub-search and group based on a lot of other things than a shelf location. As mentioned in a few above, it is a marketing tool. The ideas has worked - as this discussion is proof of that!

I walk around bookstores , when I go, because I find interesting things. Usually a new release or remainders table are not arranged by genre (never seen it), heck they usually aren't arranged by any order! And the "stumble upon" factor is great. I mean where do you put a Jonathan Lethem - time travel and interplanetary jumps but in a more "literary fiction" writing style.

I do think the horror section should be combined into the fantasy section. It's just too small and too arbitrary.

Truthfully, although I used to love wandering the stores and picking up a new stack of books to savor, nowadays I pretty much only use the stores for seeing what's on the newly-released shelves and maybe a little bit of browsing to see what catches my eye. I write it down, or enter it into GoodReads via my mobile now, and then read reviews, maybe the author's wesite, etc. If I decide I want to read a book I order it from Amazon or the library. If I need a last-second gift or something and can't wait the 2 days it takes to get it from Amazon, I'll check the store's website first, reserve the book, and go right to the counter to pick it up. I very seldom actually "shop" at bookstores anymore. They have the end product, but not the information I want before I buy. I get that here!

Random wrote: "Not only that, but you're also more likely to see and try things you'd usually never run across.

I personally have never understood the tight I'll only consider such and such kind of books. I have a friend who will only read a handful of horror authors and what I call vampire romances. I've read a number of books I think she would like but she'll never even consider them.

I've another who says she despises Fantasy/Science fiction. She's never actually tried them before. She did love and read Harry Potter after having seen the first movie, but she still insists she hates and will not enjoy anything fantasy."

I think that there is an element of "genre-ism" in society as a whole. I remember in high school that one of my friends was always reading these books about dragons and such. I thought she was a bit strange, but she took it to the wearing fantasy-themed jewelry and all that, too. Then I picked up my first true fantasy in college, and then it all went downhill.

I think that in many circles, sci fi and fantasy are bad words (see the "strangest place to read a book" thread), and people make assumptions about people based on what they read. People that liked Harry Potter but won't touch any other fantasy work is what I would call a "genre-ist" and wouldn't be caught dead without something from the bestseller list, a la Twilight. How Twilight is cool but Salvatore or Goodkind is not is way beyond me.

Think about it. Would you be openly be reading your non-mainstream book of choice when waiting for an interview, on a business trip, or anywhere that it is "professionally unacceptable?" I think that aside from the money thing, strict genres and how much they get promoted by the bookstores/publishers is a direct result of preconceptions in society. Supply and demand. Cheesy romance novels, self-help books, half-baked ideas like Twilight. THIS is how people see society, and in a way, it is the way society sees itself.

Thanks for my insightful ranting about this. Thoughts?

Michael does a lot of book clubs (some fantasy related and some not) and it seems as though the people who are "non fantasy" readers are completely floored by his books - I think because they are "lighter" than many fantasy readings. On the same token some "hard core" fantasy readers are not as thrilled again because it is "too light". I think what makes a lot of people shy away from fantasy is historically it has A LOT of information - history, religion, social systems, and I think it requires an investment to "learn the world" that puts some people off. They just want a story. While others LOVE this aspect.

As to reading a non-mainstream when waiting for an interview or on a business trip - I would and have and I'm in a pretty high paid profession - Heck if I was hiring someone I would like to see them readinging "anything" while waiting as it shows they make good use of all their time.

-- Robin The Crown Conspiracy | Avempartha | Nyphron Rising (Oct 2009)

Kathy wrote: "Think about it. Would you be openly be reading your non-mainstream book of choice when waiting for an interview, on a business trip, or anywhere that it is "professionally unacceptable?""

I must be an odd one since I have done this multiple times already. I've certainly never cared what people thought about the books I read. As far as I've been able to tell, no one has really cared the other way. Well there was a history teacher in high school, but I think he just used it as an excuse to pick on me. We were not fond of each other. :)

Robin, interesting thought about why people shy away from fantasy. I know I have run into with my Mother in the past. I suspect it may be similar with some areas of Sci-Fi as well. I wonder if it is maybe a type of laziness or a difficultly accepting worlds/environments that differ from their own frame of reference. I wonder if this might be why Urban Fantasy has become so popular lately. It starts with a known environment and then adds the fantasy elements onto it.

Personally I enjoy all of the different forms of Speculative Fiction. Each has it's own special qualities that can be so very enjoyable. Which I go for at any specific time depends upon my current mood.

Okay so I only read Michael's original post here so forgive me if I'm repeating anything.

Some of the Chapters-Indigo stores separate Fantasy and Science Fiction and it drives me insane. Mostly because they often have books in the wrong section and you can't find them. A lot of fantasy can also be science fiction and vice versa, so they're really not easy to separate.

Not to mention, we all disagree on particular books and what genre and sub-genre they fit into, so keeping them together eliminates that arguments.

While I'm browsing fantasy (my favourite), it's nice if sci-fi is mixed in with them also because a sci-fi book can catch my eye and I would never have noticed it otherwise.

Then there's the problem with horror - a lot of it I would call urban fantasy, like Kelley Armstrong, but the fantasy section as Chapters just keeps on shrinking (while the romance gets bigger and bigger).

Shannon, I hate that "horror" seems to mean to some booksellers "anything that contains vampires and other creatures of the night" rather than something that's actually horrific or scary. Kelley Armstrong and her genre colleagues aren't trying to be scary.

The classification of scary and horrific labeled as horror is a joke to me. I prefer the classification Dark Fiction since it seems to help keep the term horror in the mind of the reader. Also I think 'horror' gets short changed more than the other genre's as well, not that Fantasy or Sci-Fi are ahead by much.

Overall I think the generic theme label is too individualistic to be really practical [or do stories and authors any justice:], much prefer all organized by author with a database of tags to describe or help find different books/authors.