Book Nook Cafe discussion

What's this? Our November 2013 Group Read & Movie discussion !


Book: Catch-22

Author: Joseph Heller

Movie:
Catch-22 (1970)
man is trying desperately to be certified insane during World War II, so he can stop flying missions.

Director:
Mike Nichols

Writers:
Joseph Heller (novel), Buck Henry (screenplay)

Stars:
Alan Arkin, Martin Balsam, Richard Benjamin


When: The discussion will begin on November 1, 2013.

Spoiler etiquette: Please put a spoiler warning at the top of your post if discussing a major plot element. Include the chapter #

Synopsis: Fifty years after its original publication, Catch-22 remains a cornerstone of American literature and one of the funniest—and most celebrated—books of all time. In recent years it has been named to “best novels” lists by Time, Newsweek, the Modern Library, and the London Observer.

Set in Italy during World War II, this is the story of the incomparable, malingering bombardier, Yossarian, a hero who is furious because thousands of people he has never met are trying to kill him. But his real problem is not the enemy—it is his own army, which keeps increasing the number of missions the men must fly to complete their service. Yet if Yossarian makes any attempt to excuse himself from the perilous missions he’s assigned, he’ll be in violation of Catch-22, a hilariously sinister bureaucratic rule: a man is considered insane if he willingly continues to fly dangerous combat missions, but if he makes a formal request to be removed from duty, he is proven sane and therefore ineligible to be relieved.

This fiftieth-anniversary edition commemorates Joseph Heller’s masterpiece with a new introduction by Christopher Buckley; a wealth of critical essays and reviews by Norman Mailer, Alfred Kazin, Anthony Burgess, and others; rare papers and photos from Joseph Heller’s personal archive; and much more. Here, at last, is the definitive edition of a classic of world literature.

Discussion questions --May contain spoilers

Catch-22 Questions

Bring on the tough stuff - there’s not just one right answer.


1.One of the most challenging aspects of this novel is piecing together the order in which events occur. How does Heller manipulate time, fragment the action and confuse cause and effect? More importantly, how does this confusing form fit the function? In other words, how does the way in which this story is told fit with what is actually happening in the story?


2.How is insanity defined in Catch-22? What characteristics do "crazy" characters have? Is madness the norm or an exception during wartime?


3.Does there seem to be any system of justice in the novel? Are "good" characters rewarded while "evil" ones punished? Can we clearly say who is "good" or "evil"? If not, is there such thing as justice at all?


4.Define the logic of Catch-22. What part does this logic play in the story being told?


5.Catch-22 is an allegory of the common man vs. the bureaucracy of modern-day America. In Catch-22, how does the administration of the Air Force abuse its power? How does it keep its men enlisted and active? If it doesn't care for the well-being of its men, what are its goals?


6.Are there any purely "good" characters in the book? If so, who are they and how is their goodness expressed? On the other hand, how do the more flawed characters demonstrate their cynicism, deceit, blindness, or lust for power?


7.Few of the characters ever form lasting friendships with fellow soldiers. How is the individual kept isolated from his peers? In what ways do they cope with their loneliness?


8.Why is Yossarian so obsessed with death? Is he correct in assuming everyone is out to kill him? How do the deaths of Nately and Snowden change him?


9.How does Yossarian keep his personal integrity amidst all the corruption and apathy in Pianosa? What particular characteristics does he value? And what moral lines does he refuse to cross?


10.Do you consider the ending of Catch-22 a happy or sad one? How might it be construed as a triumph for Yossarian? A defeat? Is it the only way out of the mad system of Catch-22?

I am waiting for my library to find a copy of this book. They have got hold of the movie for me, so I'm half organised...

I have an audio copy, I hope it is well done.

Glad to have you two on board, Lesley and Jane !

Work has been crazy, as I've been finishing up a project - and then catching up with all the stuff I've been neglecting while working.

I will be joining in with this one - looking forward to knocking one more off my Determination List!

Glad to have you join in, Susan. :)

I requested the DVD from my library and should get it sometime this coming week.

My library now has the book in so will be picking it up on Tuesday.

Hopefully, I will begin reading next week. (I own a copy.)

I am trying to finish reading these which are due by the end of the week.

I just started today and did not get very far. Hopefully tomorrow will be.better.

I started, but also need to read another book at the same time which I will have to finish before the library due date comes up. So far I think I like the very beginning of the book the best when he is in the hospital. (I think I read the first 5 chapters).

Hope you're all enjoying it so far! I have had the busiest week and haven't been around much but I hope to get to the questions in due course :)

For some context, here is a famous interview Joseph Heller did with Playboy in the 1970s about Catch-22. It is a really good read and shows the author's insight into his own story. Obviously it is FULL OF SPOILERS so don't read it until you've finished!

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Fh...

Actually the link is a little dodgy because it's not showing the full interview. I have looked for another online copy and can't find one :(

I'm about half-way through the book. It's an interesting read and is often very funny, but the structure (via vignettes/characterizations) is not my favorite so I'm working my way through. I feel like I don't get to know the characters as well this way. Also, there are a few places where it is more serious or there is a subtext about the broader war, but I guess I would like to see a little more of that.

I sort of feel like I'm reading an episode synopsis or script for a sitcom. In fact, in the chapter with the two "battling" CID men, I thought - wait, this was an episode of M*A*S*H! I remember this one! When I started reading the book, it felt like a cross between The Things They Carried and M*A*S*H (the TV show - I've never seen the movie all the way through), even though I know Catch-22 predates and perhaps inspired them.

It was a slow start, but I feel like I'm making progress now!

Susan wrote:
It was a slow start, but I feel like I'm making progress now!
.."

I'm glad to hear that, Susan. I've never been able to get into the book or movie.

I'm still waiting on the DVD from the library. Should be here any day.

I watched the movie this evening. Wow ! What an all star cast.

The movie was very bizarre. I found it alternatively very grim and sometimes funny.

For me, the best part was seeing the various stars in the movie.

I thought this info on the author was interesting.

Wiki
The idea for Catch-22 was based on Joseph Heller's personal experience in World War II. The feelings that Yossarian and the other bomber pilots felt were taken directly from problems he suffered while on duty. Heller flew 60 bombing missions from May to October in 1944. Heller mentions that he should have been killed three times over, since the average death rate was 5% per mission. Heller was able to make it out of the war, but the experience tortured him and it took until 1953 before he could start writing about it. The war experience turned Heller into a "tortured, funny, deeply peculiar human being".[20]

After publication in 1961, Catch-22 became very popular among teenagers at the time. Catch-22 seemed to embody the feelings that young people had toward the Vietnam War. It was joked around that every student who went off to college at the time took along a copy of Catch-22. The popularity of the book created a cult following, which led to over eight million copies being sold in the United States. There are many[who?][not in citation given] who feel that "the comic fable that ends in horror has become more and more clearly a reflection of the altogether uncomic and horrifying realities of the world in which we live and hope to survive."[

Jane(Pixie) wrote: "I have an audio copy, I hope it is well done."

I am interested in your experience with the audio. Since the story told in a non-linear time line, I would think it would be difficult to follow on audio.

Wiki
"Although the novel won no awards upon release, it has remained in print and is seen as one of the most significant American novels of the 20th century.[3] Scholar and fellow World War II veteran Hugh Nibley said it was the most accurate book he ever read about the military.[26] Since its release in 1961, the book has sold 10 million copies."


That thought that is even a tiny bit accurate is scary as heck.

wiki
The Modern Library ranked Catch-22 as the 7th (by review panel) and 12th (by public) greatest English language novel of the 20th century.

The Radcliffe Publishing Course rank Catch-22 as number 15 of the 20th century's top 100 novels.

The Observer listed Catch-22 as one of the 100 greatest novels of all time.

TIME puts Catch-22 in the top 100 English language modern novels (1923 onwards, unranked).

The Big Read by the BBC ranked Catch-22 as number 11 on a web poll of the UK's best-loved book.

Where would you rank it ?

Susan wrote: " I feel like I don't get to know the characters as well this way...."

I can't even keep half of them straight because it keeps jumping around. I only read 5 chapters so far.
Out of my two books I am reading, I probably only read 4 pages since monday. :-(

My father-in-law was a pilot in WWII, served in Korea & Vietnam. He felt this book & M*A*S*H* both accurately portrayed the sense of confusion and lack of coordination he experienced. During those latter two wars he served in the medical divisions, so felt those events were better depicted. I haven't read this book & am unable to do so this time, so am avoiding the discussions. Thanks for the extra info, Alias.

I wonder if the big difference is between an army that uses the draft versus a volunteer army.

Some of the characters in Catch-22 are downright crazy.

Julie wrote: "Susan wrote: " I feel like I don't get to know the characters as well this way...."

I can't even keep half of them straight because it keeps jumping around. I only read 5 chapters so far.
Out of m..."

Here is a link for the character list. There is also a chapter summary.

Perhaps watching the movie first would also help keep some of the characters straight.

SparkPeople character list -
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/catch22...

Alias Reader wrote: "wiki
The Modern Library ranked Catch-22 as the 7th (by review panel) and 12th (by public) greatest English language novel of the 20th century.

The Radcliffe Publishing Course rank Catch-22 as numb..."

I would definitely rank it in my Top 10 Books Ever Read, maybe even Top 5. Of my personal favourite books, it is probably in the Top 10 also. So I am a bit biased but I think it's a masterpiece. I find it hysterically funny and dreadfully sad all at the same time.

Soph have you read Good as Gold---Joseph Heller ?

I read it decades ago but recall I enjoyed it a lot and found it lol funny. That is the only Heller book I've read. Have you or anyone else read any of his other books?

Susan wrote: "I'm about half-way through the book. It's an interesting read and is often very funny, but the structure (via vignettes/characterizations) is not my favorite so I'm working my way through. I feel l..."

I found the structure odd at first too Susan, even on a re-read. It felt like nothing was really connecting. It starts to work better the further you get, then by the end the 'layering up' of events made complete sense and acted as something quite powerful for me.

Finding it hard to talk about the bones of the book whilst everyone is still getting into it! I am being so cautious about not spoiler-ing anything!

Alias Reader wrote: "I watched the movie this evening. Wow ! What an all star cast.

The movie was very bizarre. I found it alternatively very grim and sometimes funny.

For me, the best part was seeing the va..."

I'm going to try and find the film tonight to watch on my day off. I can't really imagine how it translates into a movie, which usually have to be quite linear, when the structure of the book leaps around so much! How would you rate it out of 5, Alias?

With the caveat that I have not read the book,I would give the cast 5 stars. The story 4 stars for originality. Overall I would give the "plot" such as it is maybe 3. I prefer linear stories so for that reason I wouldn't say I was a huge fan of the structure of the story.

I'm about 2/3 finished and hope to be done today or tomorrow. So far, I am enjoying it (maybe 4/5 stars), but there are times where it just goes a little too far for my taste. Maybe I'll change my mind by the end, but it's not even in my top 20 at this point.

I can see how things would play out like this in a war. Between the confusion of the situation, the fiefdoms created by the command structure and the general fear/uncertainty/stress, it's not hard to imagine that attitudes and behaviors tend to the extreme. It is funny and it is sad at the same time.

If I were to compare it to the other war movie that it is often mentioned with, MASH, I would say I liked MASH a lot more. Again for the more linear story line and it is not so far out of the realm of possibility.

Thanks for the link to the Spark notes, Alias. I really need them! Am at chapter 4 and struggling.

It's a confusing book. I've tried to read it in the past and couldn't do it.

That is why I opted for the movie.

Good timing on our part ! :)

November 10

On this date in 1961, the satirical anti-war novel Catch-22 by Joseph Heller (books by this author) was published. Catch-22 is about a World War II bomber pilot named Yossarian who tries to get himself declared insane so he can stop flying bombing missions. Unfortunately, there is a regulation called Catch-22, which says that if you want out of combat duty you can't be crazy.

Heller wrote: "[A pilot] would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to." He also wrote: "But that was war. Just about all he could find in its favor was that it paid well and liberated children from the pernicious influence of their parents."

Catch-22 got mixed reviews, but it became a cult favorite. And by 1963, it had become the best-selling book in America. Vietnam War protesters began wearing pins that said, "Yossarian Lives!" The phrase "Catch-22" became a part of the American lexicon, defined by one edition of the Oxford English Dictionary as "a condition or consequence that precludes success, a dilemma where the victim cannot win."

This is the first I heard of the Yossarian Lives! button.

If you google Images Yosarian Lives it appears it's quite the popular saying.

I finished tonight, so thought I'd answer some questions. My comments on the book are in my Determination List thread. These are just partial answers, so happy to discuss with others!

Note: there will likely be spoilers here!

1.One of the most challenging aspects of this novel is piecing together the order in which events occur. How does Heller manipulate time, fragment the action and confuse cause and effect? More importantly, how does this confusing form fit the function? In other words, how does the way in which this story is told fit with what is actually happening in the story?

Because each chapter highlights a character or vignette, there is a jumpy quality to the story. This contributes to the feeling of confusion - lots of people, places, bombing runs and incidents. There are times when some activities discussed early on are amplified or referred to in later sections, so it does (to some extent) weave the story together.

2.How is insanity defined in Catch-22? What characteristics do "crazy" characters have? Is madness the norm or an exception during wartime?

In a specific and overly simplified sense, insanity is wanting to fly the missions; sanity is not wanting to. However, there are other aspects of insanity presented in the story via the "crazy" characters.

The "crazy" characters express extreme interpretations of rules, fixation on particular aspects of their duties, and confidence in their own beliefs and in the correctness of their actions. Most of the military hierarchy are presented in this way - blindly ambitious and having an inflated sense of their own importance.

Some of the "crazy" characters among the bombers and pilots have a certain amount of paranoia and fear that they would be killed or injured on missions. They were also sometimes distrustful of others.

3.Does there seem to be any system of justice in the novel? Are "good" characters rewarded while "evil" ones punished? Can we clearly say who is "good" or "evil"? If not, is there such thing as justice at all?

Justice is fairly lacking in the story! I'm not sure who I would consider "good" versus "evil". Will need to consider.

Although madness is not necessarily the norm during war, it is more prevalent. From "shell shocked" to PTSD, those in battle often experience greater stress than they can bear.

5.Catch-22 is an allegory of the common man vs. the bureaucracy of modern-day America. In Catch-22, how does the administration of the Air Force abuse its power? How does it keep its men enlisted and active? If it doesn't care for the well-being of its men, what are its goals?

The goals are personal and professional advancement for those in charge. The abuse of power is seen in forcing the men to fly more and more missions, exposing them to greater physical and mental damage.

6.Are there any purely "good" characters in the book? If so, who are they and how is their goodness expressed? On the other hand, how do the more flawed characters demonstrate their cynicism, deceit, blindness, or lust for power?

One of the challenges with the book is that the generally good characters were frequently weak in some way - i.e., the Chaplain allowed his own fear to prevent him from standing up for himself and the men. Most of the more sympathetic characters were conflicted. Many of the less sympathetic characters were more strident. The lust for power and money lured many in the hierarchy to the dark side.

7.Few of the characters ever form lasting friendships with fellow soldiers. How is the individual kept isolated from his peers? In what ways do they cope with their loneliness?

They are pitted against each other, lied to, and were isolated by their reluctance to express their fears and concerns with others.

8.Why is Yossarian so obsessed with death? Is he correct in assuming everyone is out to kill him? How do the deaths of Nately and Snowden change him?

In some ways, he is correct that everyone is out to kill him! Between the enemy during the missions, the leadership of his own unit was unconcerned with his (or anyone's) risk of injury or death. The increasing number of missions needed to go home and seeing more and more of his comrades die (esp. Nately and Snowden) are two key factors in his growing concerns for his own safety. They were particularly difficult for him because he felt a greater connection to the deaths - putting Nately in touch with Milo, who got him more missions after his required number was reached, and being on the plane when Snowden was hit and trying to save him.

10.Do you consider the ending of Catch-22 a happy or sad one? How might it be construed as a triumph for Yossarian? A defeat? Is it the only way out of the mad system of Catch-22?

The bad guys had so rigged the system that there were few options to get out. Yossarian got out without compromising his principles (so, in a sense, a victory), but he had to let go of everything and run (so, in a sense, a defeat).

1.One of the most challenging aspects of this novel is piecing together the order in which events occur. How does Heller manipulate time, fragment the action and confuse cause and effect? More importantly, how does this confusing form fit the function? In other words, how does the way in which this story is told fit with what is actually happening in the story?
------
Susan
Because each chapter highlights a character or vignette, there is a jumpy quality to the story. This contributes to the feeling of confusion - lots of people, places, bombing runs and incidents. There are times when some activities discussed early on are amplified or referred to in later sections, so it does (to some extent) weave the story together.
------------

I think he structured it this way to mimic the confusion of the war. He was putting the reader in the same position as the characters.

This can be a pain for readers and viewers of the movie, but I do understand the reason behind it all. Anyway, I think that is the reason, lol.

6.Are there any purely "good" characters in the book? If so, who are they and how is their goodness expressed? On the other hand, how do the more flawed characters demonstrate their cynicism, deceit, blindness, or lust for power?
------------
Susan--
One of the challenges with the book is that the generally good characters were frequently weak in some way - i.e., the Chaplain allowed his own fear to prevent him from standing up for himself and the men. Most of the more sympathetic characters were conflicted. Many of the less sympathetic characters were more strident. The lust for power and money lured many in the hierarchy to the dark side.
--------------
I agree all the characters were flawed in some manner. However, I think Yossarian is the hero of the book. He tries to do the right thing. And he also sees the war for the crazy situation it is.

3.Does there seem to be any system of justice in the novel? Are "good" characters rewarded while "evil" ones punished? Can we clearly say who is "good" or "evil"? If not, is there such thing as justice at all?
--------
Susan
Justice is fairly lacking in the story!
--------
Agree ! I think it has to be that way to prove Joseph Heller's anti-war point.

Thanks for trying your hand at the questions, Susan. I enjoyed reading your responses. After seeing the movie, I would agree with all your answers.

The book, despite it's convoluted plot and structure, is still fairly straight forward in its message.

I agree - that's what I was getting at but didn't express very well! It was late and I was tired when I was posting.

I think the structure also mimics the somewhat uneven pace of life for the men who were flying the missions - intense flashes of action, followed by boredom and waiting until the next mission. The chapters varied in intensity - some were low-key (e.g., at their tents), some absurdly silly/crazy (e.g., adventures in Rome or the hospital), some were frustrating and stressful (e.g. dealing with the generals, colonels, majors, etc.), and some intense and frightening (e.g., on missions).

I think you expressed yourself well. :)

I think he used various characters to show how each dealt with the horrors of war. They all seem to go off the rails into crazy land. Each in their own way.

You mentioned the character Milo in your review. I guess this character is similar to the Radar O'Reilly character in M*A*S*H. He also was always able to get things. Though his character never stepped over the line like Milo.

You say you didn't like the move M*A*S*H. Did you enjoy the TV series? It's been so long since I saw the movie, but I did enjoy it. I also like the series a lot.

Yes, I grew up on the TV series! I was about 8 when it started and it was one of my favorite shows when I was a kid. I saw the movie later, so part of my dislike of the movie may be because it and the actors differed from the series.

I wouldn't say Milo was like Radar because Radar had an innocence and lack of sophistication about him. he focused on getting what the camp/hospital needed and tended to trade with his counterparts in other camps rather than outmaneuver others. Milo was a wheeler-dealer - on an international scale - and was focused on profit at all costs. I'm not sure there is a correlate for Milo among the M*A*S*H characters, though some of the "entrepreneurs" visiting the camp who were cashing in on the war effort may be similar.

I have decided to leave Catch 22 unfinished. I really expected to like it, but found myself avoiding it instead. I am enjoying reading this thread all the same. I hope to watch the movie this week then tackle the discussion questions.

Sorry to hear that, Lesley. I understand completely, though, as this was not the easiest of books.

I will probably get the movie sometime in the next few weeks, so hopefully we can compare notes!

I hope our next 3 Book and a Movie get us back on track with books/movies we all will enjoy.

We have a short story for December than January start up again with books.

1776~David McCullough
The Cider House Rules~John Irving
An American Tragedy~Theodore Dreiser

I was just going to post that our books seem to be going off-track a bit somehow!

Hopefully, Carol and Julie are enjoying Catch-22?? And Soph has read it before. It would be nice to have a broader discussion.

Hopefully the next group of books will be a bit more popular and it will be a more convenient time for people to read them!

Susan wrote: "I was just going to post that our books seem to be going off-track a bit somehow!

Hopefully, Carol and Julie are enjoying Catch-22?? And Soph has read it before. It would be nice to have a broade..."

Just popping in to say I will be joining the discussion and looking at the questions in my lunch break today. I was just waiting for somebody to finish it so I didn't accidentally spoil or be talking about things and nobody knew what I was on about! :)

Yay! Looking forward to hearing your comments, particularly since you really seem to love the book. Sorry if I sounded pissy - I've been tired lately so things tend to come out harsher than I mean them to.