Review Group discussion
Advice
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So what is a review and how do I write one?
Although it's hard, particularly for new authors, to take criticism and a reduced amount of stars, it's also a good tool to place in one's toolbox. It just means there is a place to grow as long, of course, as the reviewer is able to control emotions with intellect. All this to say that I basically agree with you, Jay. Incidentally, I thought I had signed up with the group but was never contacted.
My understanding is that your Amazon rating goes up with every review, good or bad. Is this correct? That said, when we signed up, I too understood that we were given the choice to have ratings of 2 or lower not posted on commercial websites like Amazon. Susanne was quite polite when she asked that the commercial reviews be removed.
But I completely agree with Jay about the guidelines and am grateful for them.
Rebecca
Marie-Jo wrote: "Although it's hard, particularly for new authors, to take criticism and a reduced amount of stars, it's also a good tool to place in one's toolbox. It just means there is a place to grow as long, o..."My apologies for that, Marie-Jo. Was it on the 'register here' thread I missed you, or just the 'introduce yourself' thread? Whatever, if you have the time for reviewing now I can slot you into group 22. That will make 10 members so we can start the group a week tomorrow (provided everyone signs in on time).
BTW, I'm never averse to receiving PMs or responding to posts here on the forum about legitimate concerns - such as no contact when expected ;) I'm afraid I'm all too fallible with a very busy life and sometimes need a bit of a kick to deal with something. So kick away!
Jay wrote: "Marie-Jo wrote: "Although it's hard, particularly for new authors, to take criticism and a reduced amount of stars, it's also a good tool to place in one's toolbox. It just means there is a place t..."No problem. It was quite awhile ago. And since then, many things happened. Some good, some not so good. So I let it go. I just signed up in group 22, by the way.
The reviewer, like the customer, is always right. As someone who has received both 2 star and 5 star reviews for my work, I can attest to the value of taking it on the chin and not commenting (aside from the Amazon posting thing, which I agree with for one and two star reviews ONLY). What I do when receiving a review I don't like (for whatever reason) is to thank the reviewer and try to write better.
Rebecca wrote: "My understanding is that your Amazon rating goes up with every review, good or bad. Is this correct? That said, when we signed up, I too understood that we were given the choice to have ratings o..."
I believe that's right. Take a look at the review average for Stephanie Myers, and you'll see it's low...but she has about a million reviews. It's the number of reviews, not the number of 5 stars (which usually are from friends!) that count in this game.
Great original post, top marks to you. One question: how do authors on this group transfer their reviews to Amazon? As someone with an Author Central profile on there, it refuses to let me review other people's books. I think it's a new thing, but it must affect this group, right? Thoughts?
Amazon requires you to have purchased from them before you can post a review. Barnes & Noble, on the other hand, takes all reviews.
Ciarán wrote: "Great original post, top marks to you. One question: how do authors on this group transfer their reviews to Amazon? As someone with an Author Central profile on there, it refuses to let me review..."
I wonder if downloading a freebie would count as a qualifying purchase? I've never had this problem, but I've heard a few other people mention the problem.
Try downloading the group's anthology and see if that gives you the foot in the door - preferably with a review for the anthology ;)
If any of you are interested, the theme for the 2014 anthology is 'many nations, one world' - please send your submissions to:
owaw2013submissions@gmail.com
More details here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I don't think it matters if I've purchased or not. Their point is that I'm an author, and it's unethical for me to give reviews to competition. They have similar rules on reviewing sweeping brushes, if you happen to sell sweeping brushes yourself :-)
Actually, I've downloaded a few freebies this week, let me see if they'll let me review one. I'll report back.
Ciarán wrote: "I don't think it matters if I've purchased or not. Their point is that I'm an author, and it's unethical for me to give reviews to competition. They have similar rules on reviewing sweeping brushes..."So why don't I have a problem? Or most of our members? I've had an author profile since 2011 and posted dozens of reviews.
Okay, so far so good. They accepted it. If it appears on the site in the next hour or so, I'll know that they do let you review as long as you've bought it :-)
Jay wrote: "Ciarán wrote: "I don't think it matters if I've purchased or not. Their point is that I'm an author, and it's unethical for me to give reviews to competition. They have similar rules on reviewing s..."Dunno, Jay. It's apparently a new thing. I tried to post a few reviews last month, and it just wouldn't let me, and told me it was because I was an author. There have been lots of discussions about it on the KDP Select forums.
It's fine now, apparently. Who knows what they're up to? Crazy Amazon peeps.
I posted a bunch of book reviews two days ago and it let me do all of them with no problem, even though I have an Author Central account (I also reviewed a bunch of non-book items.) Amazon will supposedly remove reviews from authors in their own genre if the review is low (so I've been told) but I've reviewed within my own genres and none of them have been removed. Yet.
Amazon rules are certainly rather strange at times - not recognisable as consistent or fair in many circumstances. Hey ho, love 'em or loathe 'em we deal with it all as best we can. And they gave me not only a chance to publish but good tools to do it with at a time when I'd lost all hope from the traditional routes.
As someone who is brand new to the review groups, I can't tell you how glad I am that you posted this, Jay! I've reviewed plenty of books over the years and I've done critiques in fiction writing classes. So I didn't think I'd have any difficulty being part of a review group.
However, I've been completely stressed out because I overlooked one very important fact. As a reader, if I don't think a book is written well, I usual give it a few chapters and if it doesn't improve I simply stop reading it. And I never leave reviews for those books.
So this week, I realized that I may have to finish reading and write reviews for poorly written material. That's difficult for me. I hate to hurt someone's feelings. But I'd hate to mislead prospective readers, more.
Your simple formula will help me immensely. Thank you!!
And my two cents about high and low star reviews...I've gotten many good reviews, which I greatly appreciate, but one professional reviewer gave me 3 stars and picked me apart in some ways. It stung, but I learned from it. She was right and I'm now a better writer because of her review.
I read some place that Amazon reviews which do not have "amazon verified purchase" under the reviewer name hold no merit. Now, this bit of info came my way from one of those "We'll promote your book for you" mass emails, so it's hard to say if this is true or not. Of course, they want you to purchase one of their "specially priced" promo packages and how they'll go about selling your book they are pretty vague.
Jay, I really appreciate this thread. I am about to review my first book and love the pointers that you listed below.CHARACTERS:
STORY:
PACE AND STRUCTURE:
USE OF LANGUAGE:
NARRATIVE VOICE:
DIALOGUE:
SETTINGS:
THEMES:
Thank you, once again, for creating this review group. I am grateful for the opportunity to participate and improve as a reviewer as well as an author.
Rebekah and Jade - if I've helped in some way then I'm glad of that. I'm just passing on advice I was given in my early days as an indie author, so your thanks go further back than me. The real bonus of being a good reviewer is that you get people following your reviews once they trust you, and that rubs off on your reputation as an author. win/win :)Zrinka - basic rule of thumb in anything - if they want your money don't trust them. It pays to be cynical and keep hold of your cash. It's down to them to convince you to part with your money, it's down to you to do some research and find out if the payment is worth it. Most often the answer to that is no.
Hi Jay! It's been a while since we've talked. I absolutely LOVE this formula! I have read several books outside of my preferred genre and sometimes, it is very hard to review them. I like this so much, and I am going to use this for all my reviews. It is the fairest rating system that I've seen. As you pointed out, it will give a justification as to why it was rated like it was. I am still trying to knock out my queue, but I honestly don't have as much time to read as I would like. I will get there. I have been contacted by a senior editor for a small press asking if I will review two books from a series from an international author. I was surprised, but she referenced that we had talked before. I didn't remember it, but I wasn't going to say so.. :) So I told her I would. Even though my queue is so full, I will not say no to an editor's request. That is a good contact to have. I do not have a page with Amazon yet. I am still just starting out, so I have a lot of work ahead of me before I'm ready. I have written reviews for Amazon and haven't been a verified purchaser, so you don't need to buy from them to review. Most of my reviews are from the author gifting me a Kindle (mobi) version or a pdf. Or I have taken advantage of the promo freebies. By the way, those do count as verified purchases whether free or not because the access to it was downloaded through Amazon. They have allowed all of my reviews so far. Thanks again Jay. Keep in touch! :)
I have to confess that I like having the 8 aspects of a review that Jay has laid out but don't usually touch on them all. Sometimes, the pacing pulls the whole book out of whack, sometimes the voice is so strong it practically carries the story. Most of the time it is a combination of characters, language, plot, and so forth. Mistakes--typos, wrong words, bad grammar--usually are biggies for me, so I'm uncomfortable with "dialect." Somebody, please take this confession...
Why not add Grammar & Punctuation and have 9 instead of 8? The formula would work the same way. :)
Grammar and punctuation only work if you are familiar with the various styles of punctuation. Oxford vs Chicago, for example. And then there is straightforward English using quotes on the other side of the period from us Yanks.In some circles, the subjunctive mode is out-of-favor. I still love it. I've seen editors put in commas on my writing only to have another editor remove them. Then there are the writers who eschew any quotes and limit punctuation. Some of them are excellent writers.
Unless you're pretty savvy, and give writers a lot of leeway, it could be a disaster. I would be wary of anyone who isn't pretty well versed to comment on that.
As a writer, we should all know the basics. I don't worry about a typo or a stray comma..that happens. I would only grade down if it was apparent that the author did not have a grasp of basic grammar. Yes, it does happen. I review debut authors and I have seen very bad usage. For example: "This backpack must way a ton!" That is obvious and yes, I do take that into consideration. Believe me, the reader will too!
Ah--now I see what you mean. The ability to write basic english.
Rebekah wrote: "... one professional reviewer gave me 3 stars and picked me apart in some ways. It stung, but I learned from it. She was right and I'm now a better writer because of her review. ..."You are so right - I was devastated when I read my first 3* review. Surely the reviewer was wrong... I hadn't done that had I? I hadn't missed those errors had I, not after the dozens of times I'd read and proofed it? No, impossible! I grabbed my Kindle to prove to myself she was wrong...
The reviewer was spot on, I hung my head in shame - then made the necessary changes and remembered the lesson.
Rebecca wrote: "Hi Jay! It's been a while since we've talked. I absolutely LOVE this formula! I have read several books outside of my preferred genre and sometimes, it is very hard to review them. I like this so m..."Hi Rebecca, good to know you're still so busy and getting the attention you deserve - from a senior editor, no less! Well done!!
I can't claim credit for the 8 categories - I got that from a lovely guy called Malcolm who welcomed me to YouWriteOn by giving practical help in the form of my very first critique and an explanation of how he'd done it. I've tried to live up to his standards ever since. (Hope life is being good to you, Malcolm, wherever it has led you these days.)
I have sometimes thought about an entirely separate category for punctuation and formatting, but I tend use that as the final decision point about whether I round up or round down the average score. Unless, of course, it is so bad that it's severely affected my ability to even finish the book... In that case I don't care how good the story was or how vibrant the characters, it won't get more than 2 or 3 stars from me (depending how bad it is). That may seem harsh but it's an important factor in enjoyment of the experience of reading. You wouldn't accept it from a big publisher, so why should we accept it from an indie author? There are certain standards that must be maintained if we are to be taken seriously and regarded as professionals. I want to make it plain that as an indie author I, too, find such sloppiness unacceptable.
Gwen wrote: "Grammar and punctuation only work if you are familiar with the various styles of punctuation. Oxford vs Chicago, for example. And then there is straightforward English using quotes on the other sid..."Good points, Gwen, and I do try and remember to allow for differences, but it really bugs me when it's obviously just laziness. If the author is not consistent with what appears to me to be an error then it probably is an error lol! And as you say, Rebecca, some mistakes are so wrong they're funny. And sad.
I do comment on grammar and punctuation in certain circumstances; for example, missing or misplaced quote marks all through the manuscript, which I've seen more than once, or just so many errors that it's distracting. I find errors in the Big Six books as well, so a few don't bother me, but there's a limit.
The issue of typos or grammatical errors is a significant one for indies. I try to give a fair amount of leeway, but, if there are many errors then that does look unprofessional.The whole issue is one of delicate balance in my opinion. On the one hand, there is tremendous pressure on indies to produce error-free books. Certainly, this is a laudable goal and came from some indies ignoring editing/proofing and putting out horrific messes with errors on every page.
On the other hand, as indies, we do not have the budget of a big publisher. That's just a straightforward fact. I don't believe many indies can afford to spend the $5,000 to $10,000 per book for services that publishers spend. I acknowledge my difference from big publishers by charging low prices in recognition that I'm selling the "Ford Focus" book not the "Porsche" book.
It is a tough issue. One that I struggle with myself. Even books from big publishers can contain several typos per book. Should indies be held to a higher standard than big publishers? Should they be allowed some typos? For now, I am coming down on the side of being somewhat gentle on indies in this regard, while doing my best to keep reducing errors in every book of my own. I know I am not perfect. I also don't charge $9.99 per e-book.
The other thing that disturbs me is that I sometimes feel the pressure on indies to be perfect is coming from service providers who stand to benefit as we struggle to pay out more and more to produce books.
As I sell more books, I am happy to keep putting more money into them to keep making them better and better. One day, I may reach perfection, but not today.
Actually the numbers that I have seen are lower then that. Around $1000 $1500 at the upper end for minor editing. I just got a quote for editing my novel for around $350 (for a pretty tight novel of around 63,000 words). Here's a url with some numbers: http://the-efa.org/res/rates.php
Of course, it still is a bunch of money to throw at getting yourself in print.
Susanne wrote: "If this note was directed at me, then I would like to explain my response to my review. The rules of this group state that one or two star reviews are to be posted on goodreads and at the author's ..." I totally understand Suzanne. I believe an author should respond to a 2 star review. Why? Because I have seen a lot of malicious, undeserved 2 star reviews. There are some (on Amazon esp) who write a negative review without stating justifications, and often you can tell they did not read the book. Their reasons for doing this are a mystery. I have seen 2 particular such 'reviews' and they continue to argue with anyone who responds to them. So, I say to you Suzanne, a little factual reparte' is in order. Regards.
Candice wrote: "The issue of typos or grammatical errors is a significant one for indies. I try to give a fair amount of leeway, but, if there are many errors then that does look unprofessional.Candice: As a beta-reader I correct spelling and punctuation as a courtesy. I do not play editor. It is beyond me that an Indie author would not learn the punctuation and check their spelling. I read my work so many times I know it by heart practically. I do a reading for content, a reading for spelling and a reading just for punctuation. Indie authors should be as proud as any other author but typos are a part of the writing animal.
I had my self-published book edited. I still found mistakes that the editor had missed. Now I found a mistake that had resulted from an earlier edit. I've read my book so many times that I can't pick up mistakes any longer. Today I put through 80 edits because the reviewers on goodreads had stated that I'd used too many adverbs ending in "ly." I can't keep up with the mounting costs. A self-published book is a money-pit. Indie authors should be allowed some leeway. We try very hard on our own.
Self-published books don't have to be money pits. I don't pay for editors. I don't pay for proof readers or any other help. The payment I make is in time, effort and concentration. My personal standards are high. Yes, I do find mistakes that I have to correct and re-upload the files, but I don't think I leave any more errors than a mainstream publisher - and I certainly correct them faster. If there are going to be errors, and there always are for both self-published and mainstream authors, I'd rather they were my errors than those of someone I'd handed over hard-earned money to, money I can't afford to waste.
I was thinking about the reviewing process this morning. One of the differences here is that when I review a book, it is one that I have chosen and finished. I normally would not review a book that I didn't truly like. I may have thought it had flaws but usually the book still resounded with me or I would not write a review. If I didn't like it, my kindness is to not write.When I critique a book in a class, I can choose to be silent or I can select one thing that was done okay and one issue I had with the book.
With friends who ask me to beta read, I adhere to my husband's motto, "Friends don't let friends publish bull---." So then I must tell the person what is wrong and what is working. Sometimes this has been very difficult. But, it is more important that they (and me) don't merrily publish something that is not polished as much as it can be.
In this situation we are often reviewing books that we would have not picked up or would not have finished, but we have to evaluate them. So, sometimes these reviews can be challenging. Anyway, this is just my musings on the subject.
Gwen wrote: "I was thinking about the reviewing process this morning. One of the differences here is that when I review a book, it is one that I have chosen and finished. I normally would not review a book that..."It can be challenging, Gwen, both to read the book and also to review it. That's where I find my points system helpful. I keep a pad handy and jot down good/bad examples to help my ailing memory when I crawl to the end - or to my surprise find I've flown through it and thoroughly enjoyed a book I'd never have chosen in other circumstances.
Whenever I review a book my first priority is to be honest. I have to live with me and I can't abide dishonesty. Nor would it be helpful to the author or other readers to give any other than a truthful opinion. There's also the factor of one's reputation as a reviewer, which does rub off on one's reputation as an author.
As we all know, whatever the facts are, whatever your opinions are, there ways and ways of communicating those facts and opinions. Try and do it clearly and with empathy, a touch of kindness.
A very interesting article. May I add just one more thing I look for in a book other that the eight mentioned - authenticity. A reader needs to get the sense that the author has at some level lived the experiences he/ she is writing about. Having said that I had an epihany after I gave my debut novel to a couple of readers before it went to print - that the book was no longer mine. It belonged to the readers. Finally, would someone like to review my book The Shenanigans of Time? I will be happy to send you a copy.
Thanks.
That's a good idea, Michele - I'll include a link to it for the new groups.
Hi Jay,Thanks for posting your helpful formula for writing an objective book review. I'll definately use this as a review guide in the future.
I appreciate all of the time consuming work that you do for this group.
MaryJane :)
MJ wrote: "Hi Jay,Thanks for posting your helpful formula for writing an objective book review. I'll definately use this as a review guide in the future.
I appreciate all of the time consuming work that yo..."
You're very welcome, MaryJane. As I said earlier, I can't claim credit for it, just for being canny enough to take note when Malcolm suggested it might be helpful to a novice reviewer (as I was then) on YouWriteOn.
Why hello Jay,how nice to find you still available! I was worried you had taken a holiday to get away from me.
Just a tinny winy question, I have my first review written and with a quaking fear I would like to publish it. How?
Your ever admiring fan.
Douglas
Douglas wrote: "Why hello Jay,how nice to find you still available! I was worried you had taken a holiday to get away from me.
Just a tinny winy question, I have my first review written and with a quaking fear I ..."
Flattery will not get you as far as keeping me entertained - keep up the good work ;)
On GR follow the posted link to the book, mark the book as read and it will invite you to review it. Amazon is so desperate for you to review you couldn't possibly miss the link for writing a review... could you?
How have lived so long withou.......................
Sh** I can even make a typo in an unfinished sentence!
It's a sunny morning here in Paris this morning, after a couple of days of stormy weather, and as usual the first thing I did was to check out how the world was receiving by literary genius.What a delight to find the following review posted on Amazon uk.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-revie....
Jay, this was unexpected, because I had hoped never to hear of this individual again in my life, his does not gel with my ideals of civilisation. Do I assume it is best to leave things like this without comment or reply, tempting though it may be?
Sharing your wisdom on this matter would be appreciated.
Douglas
Well - that's not exactly a helpful review, Douglas, but it's a three-star, so not bad! Don't reply, ever, I would say. Leave it lie - you've got a new 3-star review on the books! Besides - what would you say?
Let’s start off by clarifying what the purpose of a review actually is out in the ‘real world’. It is written by a reader for the benefit of other readers. If, incidentally, it helps the author become a better writer, or buffs the ego a tad, that’s great, but is not why they are written. The author writes the blurb to try and sell the book; the review is a mechanism for a reader to share their opinion about what the book is really like. Bearing this in mind, it is a big mistake for an author to respond to a review, either good or bad. The author is not the target audience and has no business butting in to this readers’ arena. It marks the author down as a rank amateur to start ranting, or explaining or justifying what they have written. It is disrespectful to challenge the readers’ opinions in this way. Good or bad, the author should just accept what they get and move on.
I have used another important word there – opinion. A review is one person’s opinion about the quality of the book. Hopefully it will be an honest opinion, clearly expressed, but you can’t always bank on that. No review is wasted, though. Readers are a canny bunch and are rightly suspicious of dozens of reviews all at 5*. Also, before dismissing what they have said out of hand just because it doesn’t tally with your own opinion of your work, think about what they have said and see if there is a morsel that you would be wise to take on board.
One factor to remember is that the reader has chosen to purchase a book they believed they would enjoy ie they were predisposed to rate it highly. The majority of readers are not very objective when they are reviewing books they have handed their dosh over to purchase. If it pleases the reader the rating may well be higher than the book deserves. Conversely, if the reader is disappointed, that disappointment is all the greater because of their previous expectations and bang, there goes another star. You can’t please everyone all of the time, as the old saying has it, so there should be a cross-section of views if they are honest, independent reviews.
Now, how does all this relate to how we do reviews here on the Review Group? A review is a review is a review. All of the points I have made are still pertinent. We wear two hats in our group – we are both author and reviewer. At the time of reviewing the author becomes a reader. Your reviewer has done you, the author, the courtesy of reading your work and reviewing it. Return the courtesy by accepting that they have given their honest opinion. Just because you have closer contact with your reviewer it does not give you the right to challenge their review. You wouldn’t expect to be able to influence what is written in the review, or the star rating given, if it was on Amazon. You shouldn’t expect it just because it appeared on Amazon via the Review Group. Nor do you have the right to ask for it to be removed. So what if it doesn’t fit with what you were hoping for, doesn’t match the reviews you’ve already had? Tough: live with it.
The big difference in the Review Group is that we are not choosing the books we review so we need to be even more professional in our approach to writing reviews. Often the book will be right outside our normal genre choice, may even be outside our comfort zone when it comes to subjects covered. As this is the case it is vital that reviews are totally objective. What do I mean by that? Rate it on the quality of the writing, not the topic per se. It would be terribly unfair to chop a star or two off the rating purely because it’s not a book you would normally read. You know the deal you’re making when you sign up.
Don’t forget, the other authors in your group have made the same deal. Would you want your book downgraded because the reviewer is not from your target audience? Of course you wouldn’t, so don’t inflict that unfairness on others. Do not fire PMs at your reviewers and/or the group moderator, bleating about the rating not being to your liking, or that they didn’t understand your writing. Members will often see your work differently to how you do: that’s what happens when you put your book forward for the public to voice their opinions. There’s only one way to avoid the occasional bad review and that’s never to publish your work. You NEVER have the right to demand a reviewer change their review. You certainly don’t have the right to cast aspersions on your reviewer. If you want to be a published author you’ll have to grow a thicker skin.
If you are finding it difficult to write an objective review, try looking at the novel under these headings:
CHARACTERS:
STORY:
PACE AND STRUCTURE:
USE OF LANGUAGE:
NARRATIVE VOICE:
DIALOGUE:
SETTINGS:
THEMES:
Think long and hard about what you thought was well done, what needed more work. You may have hated one of the characters, but that must mean the character was well enough drawn for you to make that connection. A particular setting may have been so well drawn you want to visit there (or you feel your skin crawl at the thought of it). Mark each section out of 5, add up the scores and take the average (divide the sum of the scores by 8) and that, taken up or down to the nearest number, is your star rating.
In your comments, try and be positive and supportive, but above all be truthful. If some aspect particularly caught your attention, good or bad, try and find a good example to talk about. OK, this is heading more towards critique than review, but it clarifies things for you, the author and other readers of your review. If you have to give a 2* rating it’s good to see why you thought it was that bad. If you give a 5* rating the same applies. Justifications of your rating help both readers and the author. In time, with practice, it will also make you a better reviewer.
OK, enough from me. The floor is now open for discussion.