SciFi and Fantasy eBook Club discussion

I am a high school teacher who writes novels on the side. I've always wanted to try my hand at novel writing, so I took about a year and really worked on creating something special.

My goal in writing my novel, LARP: The Battle for Verona, was to create an entertaining YA novel that also taught a lesson. As a teacher, I see lots of kids being bullied, or, they are treated poorly by their peers because of their interests. LARP addresses both of those issues without being preachy.

So, my question to everyone is...because YA novels are geared toward teens, is it important for there to be a lesson in the novel, or should the novels just be entertaining?

Entertaining first......
if there happens to be a life lesson also, that's just a bonus.
:)

Life is a lesson, so it may be inevitable in a good story anyway.

I think you should trust your audience and write the story you wish to write.

I taught the Hunger Games a few years ago, and as I was teaching it, the thought occured to me that the novel really doesn't have a purpose, other than to entertain. Because of its popularity, I really think the author missed a chance to use her art for a bigger purpose.

I think part of the method in doing it is like teaching...the best teachers can teach a lesson without the kids knowing it. It's better to use examples, character behavior in this case, than to come out and state the important life lesson.

I think a YA novel can have a lesson in it but doesn't need one. However, if one is there, it needs to be integrated into the overall flow and not stick out like an ending moral of the story ....

At present, it appears the main lesson in YA is the importance of being "hot". Leading the rebellion or defeating evil spirits is secondary to which "hottie" wins the heroines "heart".

Thinking that can be changed in literature without changing the overall culture is...well,.."not hot". :}

Books targeting teens (YA) are like pop music and tend to focus on what they think teens want. Hotties (either sex) usually male. The hottie is brooding and dangerous. The story is unfortunately secondary. My daughter is an avid reader and found Twilight and Hunger Games sadly lacking. It's also believed that young men don't read but young ladies do. Thus the flood of paranormal romances in the market.

Give the people what they want, but only if its what we want them to have. They'll like it, ask Mikey.
ROTFL

This can be changed. As I wrote, trust your audience. They're not stupid, mindless sex-addicts. Give them an alternative with substance and many will grab for it.

E.D....well then I am not hot! I really hope LARP: The Battle for Verona catches on and makes a positive change.

Thomas...one of my goals in writing LARP was to produce something that was different. There isn't a brooding hunk or babe....they're all geeks, anti-hero types...and there's no sex. What makes the attractive to teens is that they are genuine. It's impossible for a teen to be Katniss or Bella, but they could easily be the heroes in my book.

This is an excellent basis, Justin.

Have you looked at The Release by Shelbi Wescott? She's a teacher and set out to write apocalyptic fiction that her students would like to read. There's no strong message in it, it's not the typical chick and hottie story (although there is a chick and a guy she thinks is cute after all the others are dead). And it's not horrible.

Geoffrey...nope, not yet. Thanks for the suggestion!

Kenneth...thanks!

I did like that the kids in Wescott's book read like teens - they were self-absorbed and wedded to their devices and just kids .... :)

I have always despised stories that moralize. I would have torn the pages out of a book like that....

Aesop is great for moral points. The book shouldn't be forced to make the point. A good author should be able to weave the point in without waving a flag.

Justin wrote: "E.D....well then I am not hot! I really hope LARP: The Battle for Verona catches on and makes a positive change.

Thomas...one of my goals in writing LARP was to produce something that was differe..."

I truly do wish you nothing but good luck. I've always had respect for those individuals who "fight the Power". Take Sitting Bull, for instance. :}

Personally, I can't imagine spending the time and the anguish I would need to create a novel for any audience and not have it include important aspects of my world view. That doesn't mean it has to be preachy or have an Aesop-ian moral, but it does need to raise issues, put the characters in moral dilemmas, and show consequences to decisions -- not just have characters move from scene to scene killing bad guys and falling in/out of love or whatever.

In that sense, I think any novel worth my time as a reader should include something you might call "life lessons," but they should be woven in as the underlying theme, not a hit-me-over-the-head sort of thing with all black-and-white, good-or-bad definitions of how you should live.

Scifi has traditionally raised issues, often without a pulpit. They often are about future science and pose an interesting question that stays with readers long after reading the book. Some topics are AI, cloning, big brother, inter-species relationships.
An author cannot help writing with their own views and experiences flavoring the stew. These are often the books that become classics because the question raised, remains.

Good points. The Twilight Zone TV show comes to mind, in terms of a fantasy medium that has a lesson attached to it.

Chris wrote: "I have always despised stories that moralize. I would have torn the pages out of a book like that...."

Hmm... If written badly, I can relate to that! I think it's good for fiction, especially YA, to contain some deeper messages to provoke thought beyond the basic story. Tahlia Newland (of Awesome Indies) writes fantasy with an anti-bullying theme. I freely admit that I write sci-fi that aims to make readers think more about engineers and astrophysicists rather than vampires or wizards...

Steph

Themes are good. A story without one is just ramblings. There are two subsets of scifi that require a deeper meaning to be considered. Those are cyberpunk and steampunk.

Literature has to exist on its own terms, doesn't it? Literature can't be propaganda--or it can be, but it will sound like propaganda first, story second. To me, the most annoying literature, particularly in the fantasy/sci-fi realm, is the "message" story. That is, it has a message that drowns out the story, characters, and ambiguity of life itself. In fact, there is no 'life' to the story--everything props up a message that, unless we're complete idiots, we leave the book going, "ah, so we should act like this when we return to the real world..."

However, all literature of any stamp has a message and has some kind of moral lesson; to me, the best literature simply carries multiple messages and/or ambiguous ones that we can argue about. Even a classic science fiction work like The War of the Worlds can be taken so many ways; it shows the danger of evolving past our humanity, but it also shows the problems with current humanity--our urge to colonize and promote the 'survival of the fittest' (as in the Man on Putney Hill). Yet the messages can easily be ignored or fade into the background from the sheer wonder of the tale--the dynamic prose and fantastic imagination of Wells. The story has to come first, but if you create a story full of wonder with real, flesh and blood human beings who tackle the mysteries of being alive, the message will be there--all the ambitious 'morals' of contemporary life.

As an author myself, I start with the story and the characters; the more I write, the more I start to see the themes that I want to work to gravitate toward. But whenever I get too preachy or I feel it becomes too didactic, I snip away. A story should be timeless, not rooted to one moment in time/ideology.

Joshua...well said!

Joshua
When you're right you're right.
The story should stand on its own. The message should make you think not preach to you. That's what all the non fiction is for and why I read fiction.

In 1889, one probably couldn't miss the parallel to European colonization of Africa and Asia.., even the Americas.., to the Martian attempt to colonize Earth. Wells didn't need to pound the moral argument, because the topic was being debated by contemporary society. Western technologies and agricultural were being imposed on more primitive cultures right then.

That's not the point of this thread. The point here is; should adult authors try to teach teen readers "good morals", and one author is having a go at self-promotion by asking this "question".

Not that there's anything wrong with that. :}

E.D.
I see where you're coming from. You are not talking about blatant moral inclusion. You're talking about action/inaction of characters.
Children learn from examples: first family, later friends and media. These are all strong influences. As we age we've all said something and thought now I sound like my parent. I know I have.
So should we try to mold YA by the actions and thoughts of the characters YA will relate to? Yes. By our characters making the right decisions even when it's difficult then YA readers may agree and also make the right decisions when it counts.
My daughters and I used to read together when they were young. Now they are grown. We read thins like Alice in WL, treasure island, Tolkien, Gregor the over lander and others. Even today we discuss things from what we read. All of these books had young heroes who made tough calls, sometimes with bad results. Recently my youngest and I both read Dark Inside which has a dark hero that continually fights against the growing darkness in him while making right choices. We had some interesting discussions comparing him to the anti-hero in I Am Legend.
In a nutshell: I think authors (as part of popular media) can and should have YA characters making the right decision -- even when it's hard.

I disagree, Thomas. In reality, people don't always make the right decision. We make mistakes and we choose poorly from time to time. Reading about characters that are always right is not only a boring story, it's giving the reader a false impression of the world and themselves. They may question why they can't be as "right" often or as "good" as the characters, and may feel down about it. Or they will become trusting that others will always make the morally right choice and so be deceived.

Rather, I think it is better for two things to happen: Characters have, each from their own perspective, including the antagonists, good intentions or well-rationalized intentions, but still make mistakes like humans do. And write as though the book is not "YA" but for a general audience, barring the exclusion of graphic sex and overuse of expletives. In such a manner I offer to suggest that YA readers not be singled out for sheltering, but are given challenging, engaging books with realistic characters and depth of plot that adults would appreciate. That which is intentionally removed is the element of the profane which should be reserved only for adult audiences.

In this way, you'd not be 'dumbing things down' for YA readers and would still be providing strong life lessons - in the form of the interactions between these realistic characters.

I know this is getting off topic a bit, but I find it interesting, so what the heck. In a way, I find the whole YA category a little insulting to teens. well, that may be overstating it a bit, but if the genre is seen as 'dumbing down' or making something 'cleaner' or whatever because a 14 yo or a 17 yo is the audience, it is at a minimum condescending.... I tend to agree with Kenneth's statement that these books should be engaging and realistic characters and depth. And they should be about topics and issues that a teenager would find relevant and interesting.

Back when I was a kid, there was no real category like 'Young Adult' and few authors other than Judy Blume wrote for teens. I read things from Tolkien to The Omen to Piers Anthony and understood what I understood and missed where I didn't. And I stumbled into sex in Dhalgren as well as books containing drug abuse, satanic worship, violence and all sorts of dark gritty issues. I turned out OK.

Now, I don't think every book needs these things in them. I enjoy Jack L. Chalker novels that don't have all that in them and I enjoy China Mieville books that do tend to have it.

But that's just me. I don't think teenagers need to be protected from the profane. My mother kept an eye on what I read when I was a younger teen, and often read things as I did so I could ask questions, but she never prevented me from reading anything I wanted to read.

Geoffrey wrote: "I know this is getting off topic a bit, but I find it interesting, so what the heck. In a way, I find the whole YA category a little insulting to teens. well, that may be overstating it a bit, b..."

I suppose authors , when writing specifically for young teens, don't want to be accused of giving them ideas.

;)

I also read many of those authors as a teen, and turned out alright.
Heh heh.

Dangerous ideas like understanding how the world really is. ;)

Like Geoffry, I think that it's insulting to young adults that they be given a screened text with more emphasis on the young than on the adult. I think that at a maximum, the paring back of profane elements could be exercised, but it really is a border and not a given. I too read Tolkien young. I read Chalker too. When I was 14, I read Robinson's Mars Trilogy, which had several graphic sex scenes. Didn't ruin me, for all I know. In fact what I took away most from that series was the way that in the near future technology would shape politics and not the other way around.

Joshua wrote: The story has to come first, but if you create a story full of wonder with real, flesh and blood human beings who tackle the mysteries of being alive, the message will be there

Well said! This same discussion is going on in another group, and something along the same lines was brought out, that whether a book is YA or adult, a good book will leave you thinking.

Kenneth
Sorry I gave the impression that they should always make the right decision. As you said it would be boring. I should have said make decisions based on the right thing to do -- even if the results are disastrous. Sometimes it's the lesser of 2evils and I won't quote Spock here. In many books (Gregor the ... And seventh tower are examples) decisions for the right reasons lead to unexpected bad results. Simple human error. I gave up reading Sherlock Holmes books because he's alway 10 steps ahead of Watson and me -- which was boring.

Oh yes, I must have misread you.

Justin,

You've mentioned the name of your book three times in this thread. That's blatant self-promotion and I've deleted the most recent one.

Please try to have a conversation that doesn't include referencing your book by name.

Great, will do!

Try referring to other works. While yours may be good, very few of us may have read it. By referencing more read books, you strengthen your point, because we would have a common starting point.
Otherwise, it be like referring to an ARC you read, when the book isn't available to the public.
I'm sure some of us may be looking at your book as a potential read. But none us like that pushy salesperson at the store that follows you around asking if they can help.

Also, going back to your comment about your mom keeping an eye on what you read....that's why you turned out ok. It's great to give kids freedom as long as that freedom is monitored, if that makes sense. But a lot of parents just let their kids run wild, with their interests, and that's when freedom becomes dangerous. And, back to the original topic, I think that's where art has a responsibility in providing positive inspiration to kids who lack it in their lives.

I have previously said I don't understand the whole YA categorisation. As a teenager I would have been insulted to be treated like this when I wanted to be an adult. I read broadly and widely - adult books i.e. literature for adults not children's books.

As for life lessons please no moralising just good stories, that can carry a message even one I disagree with. If the story isn't any good then the message is lost if the message overwhelms the story then why read it. If the message is so one sided why not call it propaganda?

I am teaching The Godfather now to my senior class. Even though it's not a fantasy/sci if, part of the reason I am using it is because of the lessons involved. Many of my students are in gangs or have some degree of illegal involvement, so I am hoping the example of the Corleone family will steer them in the right direction.

I've also taught 1984, which is an incredible lesson/morality tale of a novel.

Thomas wrote: "Themes are good. A story without one is just ramblings. There are two subsets of scifi that require a deeper meaning to be considered. Those are cyberpunk and steampunk."

That does explain why I struggle to find a good steampunk story that doesn't fall flat. What is the life lesson in these cases, though? The Difference Engine left me thinking that 'progress' is a double-edged sword, no matter what the technology. I'm not sure what the message of Neuromancer was!

Technology as a double edged sword is very common in both steam and cyber punk and can get annoying. Because steam takes place around 1900 it often includes social commentary on class struggle, women's rights, child labor, etc. cyber often deals with the topic of being different by living in vr or having implants. When we look at the world we see similar issues.
It is hard to write in these genres if you focus on the theme. The ones that focus on the story and let the theme ride for free are better. Some in that group are Anubis Gate, Leviathon, the Girl in the Steel Corset. These were all enjoyable reads because the story came first. I know Leviathon can be considered diesel punk (steampunk subset). I might add Soulless (by Gail Carriger) though it has a strong paranormal romance flavoring to the steam. I found it refreshing, fun, and thoroughly enjoyable.

As both a reader and a writer, I'd say to go for entertainment value first. That's what draws the readers in. If you have a good, strong theme then the readers will draw life lessons from the work that speak to them.

I agree. The story must stand on its own. The books on my didn't finish shelve failed to be interesting to me. Someone else might love them.

There's a great Twilight Zone episode about the dangers of technology called A Thing About Machines. I really miss the days of my teens when the world was bigger and more mysterious. Technology kinda killed that. Technology has also eliminated intellectual curiosity among teens. My generation knew a lot more about the world than the current group, for sure.

Sherri wrote: "As both a reader and a writer, I'd say to go for entertainment value first. That's what draws the readers in..."

True, though I think a book has to deliver more than just entertainment. A while ago I read Anno Dracula, which admittedly is very entertaining, but it left no lasting impression and I haven't sought out the sequels. On the other hand, I was annoyed as hell about the ending of a recent book by Jonathan Coe, but I'll probably end up reading his latest one at some point.

My take would be that it's good for YA novels to deal with issues that people actually face, whether or not there are fantasy elements in the mix, but having lessons that a reader is meant to absorb doesn't work.

Justin mentioned the Hunger Games, and many people felt that the ending of the trilogy had something to say about life and the hardships people faced. Whether or not people approved of that message became a divisive issue. In most cases letting people draw their own conclusions from a story is the best policy.

Books are mind puzzles, and it takes some of the fun out of it to open a book and find the answers have already been filled in.

My eldest, at sixteen, stated that she found it hypocritical that teenagers and parents spent so much effort trying to not swear in front of each other. I responded: "Good f*#king point!". It was a warm, and liberating, bonding moment for us both.

You can't corrupt young minds, really. But you can sometimes open them.

Too true E.D.

As a teacher I work really hard at bridging the gap between my age and my students. Naturally the gap gets bigger every year. The easiest way to get the kids on your side is to just be yourself.