SciFi and Fantasy eBook Club discussion

I've been a member of the group since February of 2013 and have refrained from comment to get a feel for the group before opening up. I have to say finally that I've seen a certain avoidance within the group of Indie or Self-pub works and it troubles me that this group would do that.

The big publishers have huge budgets compared to Indie and self-pubs for generating buzz around their books. Why would a group in a 'free-to-belong' organization like Goodreads feel the need to help them out exclusively?

I will not stay here if this is what this group is about so I invite you to prove to me that this group is not unfairly biased.

Weekly I'm invited to participate in voting on lists of books and awards and routinely I'm alerted that the next book for discussion is imminent. When I go to the listing for that book I find that it is indeed of the big 5 and agency priced.

I think it's a product of the big budgeting you mention. They're more readily advertised and so more apt to be chosen because they are so prominent.

My suggestion is to put forward alternatives, because that's the only way to combat the trend.

I tend not to vote too often because I end up reading my own selections more often than not.

Well, all I can say is not all our books are published by the big five - nor are all are nominations big five. In fact, the nominations made this month for our February fantasy selection are all from smaller houses. Last month's fantasy runner up was from a small house.

All our books are nominated by members and seconded by members. If you want to see more indie books, then nominate them. Participate. I'm glad you started this conversation as it's a first step.

I read indie authors, I read small, mid-sized and big five publishers as well. I read well written books regardless of source. I don't buy into anti- indie biases nor do I buy into anti-traditional publishing biases.

Now, as for the bit about agency pricing, that's disappearing fast so it's a bit of an out-dated argument. But I can't control what members are and are not willing to spend on a book.

I'm not much of one for club reading- I read slowly, and have a really exhausting schedule, so I can't usually read on other peoples time, or keep pace with a club.

That said, let's do this. Name a few of your favorite Indie novels, or most thought provoking indie novels. Here's a few that my wife or I have read in the past several months, and thought had standout elements.

Scifi
Upload
The Loved, The Lost, The Dreaming
The Burning of Cherry Hill
Hour of the Wolf

Fantasy

The Song of Andiene
Maggie for Hire
The Captain's Door
Division of the Marked

Kenneth wrote: "I think it's a product of the big budgeting you mention. They're more readily advertised and so more apt to be chosen because they are so prominent.

My suggestion is to put forward alternatives, ..."

Thank you

Nicolas wrote: "I'm not much of one for club reading- I read slowly, and have a really exhausting schedule, so I can't usually read on other peoples time, or keep pace with a club.

That said, let's do this. Name ..."

I also do not read on the schedule of others but this week's book caught my attention...Taliesin...and I was almost willing to bite until I saw the pricing. I think my favorite Indie SciFi works I have read so far this year were the first two books in the Sisterhood of the Sun series by Martin Schiller.

Thanks for responding.

Geoffrey wrote: "Well, all I can say is not all our books are published by the big five - nor are all are nominations big five. In fact, the nominations made this month for our February fantasy selection are all f..."

Not trying to put you on the defensive here Geoffrey but as a chemist and author I have a TBR pile that stays above two hundred volumes and the pricing I see attached to most of the suggested reads is just ridiculous especially when looking at the kindle versions. It screams agency pricing. You may be right about having some Indies buried in here but I don't see them in the noise.

Again I'm not trying to get people hackles up I'm just trying to determine if this is a place I want to be.

I can sympathize with the TBR pile. For me as a lover of physical hardbacks, it carries the added weight and price of additional bookshelves too.

It's a price I pay. I do also however sympathize with you as well about keeping costs down and not giving in to gouging when possible.

Nicolas wrote: "I'm not much of one for club reading- I read slowly, and have a really exhausting schedule, so I can't usually read on other peoples time, or keep pace with a club.

That said, let's do this. Name ..."

I checked on several of the titles you suggested. I will consider them.

Thanks

Well...no one's opened the can of worms yet but (and I hate to admit it, as I am a self-publisher as well) I have yet to find a self-published SF novel that passes the LookInside test as far as writing quality goes. I have rarely been able to make it all the way through a LookInside preview without finding poor sentence structure, or an obvious naiveté in writing style. (And I live in fear of others finding the same in my work.) So, I have to thank Nicolas for suggestions. I'll look at those as well.

So of course I'm not surprised with the lack of self-pub works in the monthly read lists. Though, I'm also one of those not in a position to read on a schedule. I read very slowly--at speaking pace--and typically only read while I'm out for coffee or meals by myself. And some of that time I use on my own writing. So I don't pay a huge amount of attention to the monthly lists.

This group has no restrictions based on price or publishing house. People nominate whatever they want and vote for books that look interesting to them. I personally don't even look at who published the book when I'm deciding what to read.

I actually find it laughable to think that there is any sort of group consensus to avoid indie books going on here. Trying to get everyone in this, or any, online group to agree on something has got to be a case of trying to herd cats if there ever was one.

Angus wrote: "... but as a chemist and author I have a TBR pile that stays above two hundred volumes and the pricing I see attached to most of the suggested reads is just ridiculous especially when looking at the kindle versions. It screams agency pricing. You may be right about having some Indies buried in here but I don't see them in the noise."

I don't know what you consider 'ridiculous' but Taliesin, on Amazon at least, is $6.83. Now, that may be out of someone's budget, but I think that's a great price and within mine - But then I tend to watch my book purchasing costs as a trend vs. individual book prices. My current 6-month rolling average for per book cost is $3.35 which I think is incredibly low.

I'm not really certain what your complaint is - that we read books that are traditionally published? That we read books priced higher than you are comfortable with? That you're projecting your anger at the Big Five Publishing Houses onto us?

As I said, if you want to see more independent authors in the nominations, then volunteer for a month and nominate 4 or 5 for your month. Nominate and/or second independent authors when nomination rounds come up. February Theme nominations will be open later this month ....

Nicolas wrote: "That said, let's do this. Name a few of your favorite Indie novels, or most thought provoking indie novels."

The best independently published novel I've read this year isn't science fiction of fantasy. It's God Plays Favorites by Charlie Carillo. It's fantastic.

Within our more traditional realms, then better things I've read recently include

Towards Yesterday by Paul Antony Jones
How to Succeed in Evil by Patrick E. McLean
The Breakers Series by Edward W. Robertson

and I just picked and pretty interested in reading

The Man Who Crossed Worlds by Chris Strange

The best I've read this year is Freedom Club by Saul Garnell. It's from a small publisher. It had twist that caught me off guard. I'm jaded, I hate when I can figure out where a book is going in the first quarter of the book.

Thank you Thomas. I find Saul Garnell produces excellent works also.

Geoffrey, I'm not angry. Thanks for the label though. In your response you indicated that the kindle price for Taliesin is reasonable in your mind. The pricing is a very small part of the issue and seems to be a sore spot with you in particular. My questions have already been answered I think so I'm ready to move on.

While I don't mind a less strenuous book when I listen in the car. J. D. Robb is good for that. I prefer something that makes me think while reading it. Saul got me when I was still thinking about it a week later.
That put it on my favorites shelf which is a very small shelf.

$7 for an ebook is more than I would pay. But I've discussed that in another topic. :)

I feel that the ebook sale is worth $0.99 at best, because of the need for the server you download from, the service it provides, and the associated tracking and royalty percentages. I do not mean to slight either publishers or authors. I simply consider an infinitely-reproducible product as (next to) valueless.

On the other hand, I can and do frequently spend $15-25 on physical books. So to the question of support, I am there. Just less so in the digital format. I like Amazon's new proposal of bundling freebie or nearly freebie ebook copies with physical purchases. I think that's how it should always have been from the start.

On the other hand, I have to side with independent booksellers in their anger at "The River" for offering a cut to indie shops to sell Kindle devices. It's truly the Trojan Horse and they're right to be indignant about it.

Back on topic, all of that is largely irrelevant to the discussion of choice. I've not seen favoritism here.

Angus wrote: "Geoffrey, I'm not angry. Thanks for the label though. In your response you indicated that the kindle price for Taliesin is reasonable in your mind. The pricing is a very small part of the issue and seems to be a sore spot with you in particular. My questions have already been answered I think so I'm ready to move on."

Wait. I wasn't angry when this conversation started but I'm getting there. You start by making some comments about how this group avoids indies, plays favorites with the Big Five publishers and general unfounded comments about agency pricing and other blah blah blah....

Then you make comments about a book price being 'ridiculous'.

Now you're done with the conversation and I'm the one with a sore spot? Who are you to come here grinding an ax then walking away?

It's not an either/or situation for me, and I don't think I've ever consciously made a book-buying decision on the basis of who published it, but I'll freely admit I read many more e-books from traditional publishers than from self-publishers. Why? Because they tend to be the ones that make it past my initial filters and the acid test of a Kindle sample. As a not very fast reader, if I'm going to commit a week or more to a book, it needs something to hook my interest, and then it needs to deliver the goods in terms of all the things good writers do with that writing stuff to make it all work. Funnily enough, the best books in those regards tend to be the ones that make it past the slush piles and get picked up by the big publishers, and even get some editing by professional editors.

That being said, I do think that the increase in e-book sales and print-on-demand may open up a market for true indie publishing houses -- not simply self-published authors, but small, agile businesses with a few editors, proofreaders, marketeers, etc. who can efficiently and economically take the work of promising and established authors, get it published quickly, pay better royalties than the big traditional houses, while making a bit of money for themselves. Time will tell. Authors will still have to get past those new slush piles, but there would be more of them, so a chance for a larger percentage of the cream along with the half-and-half to rise to the top and get noticed, reaping the benefits of working with a professional publisher.

Or I could be completely wrong.

Strikes me that this group has a pretty fair and open way of choosing books, so if it is 'biased' against indies it's because the members don't come across enough indie writing to feel they want to put it forward.
This is fair enough, perhaps a little sad, but is hardly the fault of the group.

Jim
You make some good points, as does everyone else. There was a time that you submitted your manuscript to a big publisher and hoped it fit their plan. If if didn't, it died-- even if it was great. If it did you got the package: proofreaders, editors, artists. This did have one advantage for the reader, trash went we're it should -- most of the time.
Today that still exists. However, indie and self punishing has arrived. Authors can self publish or go though a small publishing house. They rarely get proof reading, editing, or graphics support. What does the reader get: a market flooded with the good the bad and the ugly.
As with anything, you will always pay more for name brand. Does that mean the others are bad? Far from it. Unfortunately you now have to look for the needle. It's tough for the reader.
It's worse for the author. How do you get that support? How do you market it? How do you get people to read it?
What these forums provide is a place for readers and authors to discuss books -- specific and general topics.
There's a place for self promotion, but I think that what's best here is when readers say I just read a cool book, it you liked book X you might enjoy this one. Personally I trust the reviews from my GR friends (and from groups like this) over anything else. When someone says book X was incredible, i compare how they rated books we both read. If we rate similarly, then their opinion may move me to look at the book.

I think I may submit some books next month for consideration by the group.

Thomas wrote: "I think I may submit some books next month for consideration by the group. "

The monthly nomination spots are filled for the next three months ... however, April's Fantasy nomination spot, which will be voted on in January, is mine. I'll give that spot up if someone wants it. I enjoy making the nominations but I like seeing what others come up with as well .... just sayin'

I think there is a big difference between restricting authors and people connected with publishing from spamming the forums and being "against" indi books.

I do feel that there is scope for much more discussion around what good indi books are out there. The only authors that I have read and enjoyed who publish indi are authors who have had seperate or subsequent publishing deals.

I have read the first 2-3 paragraphs of about 50 other indi books and all but 2 were terrible and those two were not sufficiently my scene to carry on reading. I am open to reading indi books but do not wish to trawl through masses of trash to discover something worth reading - just as I rely on reviews and recommendations before reading a traditionally published book. If multiple people with interesting opinions start buzzing about an indi book I will be very happy to give it a try at least

Kenneth wrote: "I feel that the ebook sale is worth $0.99 at best ..."

Whereas I do agree that $7 for a eBook is too high, I think you may not quite understand the economics of eBooks for authors with no help from publishers and no established following.

Self-published authors bear all the costs of producing product. The most expensive costs involved in making an eBook (ignoring time) are the book cover, editing and the eBook formatting.

Obviously one can forego all of those costs, but doing your own editing is risky and largely responsible for the overall poor quality of self-published works. Doing the formatting yourself isn't all that hard if you're HTML/XML savvy or are willing to let automated tools format your work from word processing or pdf files--risking a final output that is faulty. Doing your own cover is possible if you're artistically savvy (not just doing image creation or manipulation via Photoshop, but also typography and design, all endeavors that people spend years to master), AND computer savvy in working with the tools to put all that together--risking an amateurish book cover that will turn off readers before they even read your blurb.

A good book cover, about $200 - $700. eBook formatting, about $100 - $200. Editing (copy editing only), about $300.

So, just assume you handle some of that yourself and you end up spending a total of $400 on your book. On amazon.com, selling your eBook at $0.99 means you'll have to sell in excess of 1,300 copies just to break even. Whereas, at $3.99 you'll have to sell a little over 143 copies (the big difference not just being price, but the percent of the sale price that amazon will pay at different price points).

Considering that $3.99 is less than many people pay for milky whipped cream drinks slightly flavored with espresso at Starbucks, I don't think that price point is so bad. However, when a paperback selling for $8 has an eBook version selling at over $6...seems a bit too much to me.

In terms of pricing for books ultimately the idea that ebooks have no "costs" attached to them is almost too silly to respond to. Authors need to make a living, Amazon and other intermediaries need their cut, then there are marketing costs (author time if nothing else), editing costs, formatting costs, design costs etc. etc. The actual cost of a book being printed are actually a pretty small fraction of the total cost of most books.

True there are not many costs involved in getting the copy you might read but there are additional costs linked to ebooks such as sometimes higher tax rates, server costs and steps to minimise piracy.

As for what a book is worth? - Well it depends on the book. If you will only pay 99cents for a book then dont be surprised if what you read is a mixture of trash and stuff that is very populist and can sell enough volume for all these costs to be met.

My own tastes are not mainstream and I will happily pay what it costs to read interesting literature on subjects that are not all necessarily of interest to many people.

I have paid 50$ for an ebook before (non-fiction academic work) but felt it was pretty good value considering what i got from it.

The worth of an ebook is best judged on what you get from it and if it is a really good book then it is worth paying far more than 6$ potentially.

I've seen that argument before - that ebook 'manufacturing' is so close to free that they shouldn't cost much. It's an old argument made many places, including on other threads in this group.

I don't buy it. It values the intellectual property and the time an author puts into a book at 0 and assumes, even for a newly released book from a traditional publisher, that the editing process comes with a negligible price tag. Finally, it seems to assume that publishing is or should be a non-profit business.

It would, however, be interesting to throw a theme into the monthly theme pool that has more to do with price than book content and see if it's selected. Like 'Books under $5'. It would have to be heavily cateated since prices change across time, space and vendors, but it could be fun.

One of the challenges though with books under... is that so often books have their prices brought down for limited periods and what is a good price in US is not necessarily good in UK etc. but it might be worth a try.

I do also think having "independent" as a theme might be interesting but would need to exclude authors who have since got a publishing deal as otherwise we would just end up reading Michael Sullivan, Kathryn Rusch or Hugh Howey.

I've not said that ebook manufacturing costs nothing. I've said that distribution is potentially limitless. For the publisher, the cost of selling 1 book vs. the cost of selling 5000 books is merely the cost of running the server and processing purchases. The commodity itself is just 1's and 0's.

I feel that therefore, since it is a product that can be infinitely reproduced, it has little to no intrinsic value.

Of course there will be significant cost to the author and publisher to create the first pressing. You have to design the cover, typeset and proofread, etc. Once this is done however, it becomes an act of taking credit cards and copy & paste. Yes, it's the same with physical publishing and LP records for example. But the difference is those are made of a finite quantity of material, exist in the physical world, and become part of a determinately finite set. Even if a book or record is reissued indefinitely, there will always only be so many copies of a particular edition and they have intrinsic value - both for collect-ability and for the value of the paper or vinyl used up in the process.

There's nothing wrong with that model. It is a great way to reach an audience which is ever more connected to devices. For me though, it is not where I'd want to put my money because of my position on the intrinsic value of the product and its limitations.

Note also that because I said I would not pay more than a dollar for an ebook, does not mean I only read ebooks costing less than a dollar. I read physical books, costing many times the price because I prefer physical books, be they independently or majorly published.

Kenneth wrote: "since it is a product that can be infinitely reproduced, it has little to no intrinsic value. ..."

I agree with you statistically (and when looking at eBooks from major publishers/best selling authors), but in order for that equation to be true for self-publishers and authors not selling gazillions of copies, you have to assume the author is prepared to wait an infinite amount of time to recoup their costs (or somehow manage to sell products fast enough to recoup their costs in a reasonable time).

If I knew I'd be able to sell in excess of $1,300 books in a year, then I'd be more inclined to set the cost at $0.99. But at this point in my career that ain't happening. I don't have the leisure of being able to plop down $400 - $2,000 knowing I may not recoup costs for 10 - 20 years.

And since eBooks is the only way I'm publishing now, I can't see that the price of a luxury cup of coffee is too high.

Self-publishing online is indeed another breed, and on those points I agree with you.

Naturally, if the only means of obtaining a story is the self-published ebook, and I want to read that story, I'll buy it.

If there's an option for a physical copy though, I would opt for that by preference and would disregard any ebook copy unless it were the only format available.

OP appears to have left the group. If you look at his profile, you will see that he is an indie author and belongs to a lot of indie promoting groups. Evidently he was trying to influence this group to suit himself, and having failed to do so, has left.

Good riddance, say I. I am starting to feel that on GR, indie author all too often = gate-crasher and self-seeking manipulator.

;)
I feel a bit like ..... a stirred pot of soup.

I agree there seems to be an Indie Author Syndrome where suddenly everything has to be about Indie Authors. (Not all of them by any means, just an afflicted percentage. I know several indie authors through online presence and they are wonderful people)

What average person would really expect a book club to primarily focus on indie books?

"No Azimov or Clarke or Cherryh on this club, we only read indie published books!!"

I think a book no matter it's source can be good or great. I just finished a fantasy novel (debut and ebook only). It ko'd me. However I'm waiting on several big name books, both scifi and fantasy. Just because an author can or cannot get the attention of a big 5 publisher, doesn't determine the quality and value of the book. It only shows the view of the publishing house.

I've found in these groups several books, Big and small, that were discussed and I plan to read.

I like to download samples of nominated books and read those I like. I'm currently reading 'The Manual of Detection', a really good dreamlike book from the January fantasy poll. I see now it's from Penguin but really who cares? The author may have caught the eye of a major publishing house but he was new to me.

How about 'The Martian', a great hard SciFi book by Andy Weir that was indie and now bought up by some major house, it's still a great book.

This group has nominated and read three or maybe four indie books in the past. They were all duds, IMHO, though some people liked some of them.

For me indie books are a hard sell. Outside of this group I've read around a dozen and non were much better than meh, poor, or horrible. I think there are 10,000 indie books self-published in a year. There is bond to be a good one in there somewhere, but I don't have the time to comb though sample after sample of amateur authors.

If you think you've got a good indie book, get it nominated and see if it can get the votes. Just be sure the book is ready for prime time reading.

Hehehe...I guess you've been a debut author magnet lately Thomas.

It seems fairly obvious that a large amount of people in this group are worried about investing the time necessary to try out an indie book. That is perfectly understandable. There are a lot of poorly polished indie novels out there. I think I might have a suggestion. It might be a bad suggestion, but I thought I would throw it out there anyway.

Have an "Indie Suggestion" thread. Obviously indie authors would not be able to suggest their own works or it would end up being flooded like the self promotion thread. This could end up serving as a kind of minor league for the monthly read nominations. Books that do particularly well in the "Indie Suggestion" thread would go into a pool that could be pulled from to vote for the monthly read. It's just an idea, but I thought I would throw my two cents into the conversation.

Greg wrote: "If you think you've got a good indie book, get it nominated and see if it can get the votes..."

**wags finger** Authors can't do that without violating the rules of this group. That's self-promotion! ];P

Joe wrote: "Hehehe...I guess you've been a debut author magnet lately Thomas.

It seems fairly obvious that a large amount of people in this group are worried about investing the time necessary to try out an i..."

Not a bad idea. The benefit of traditional publishers to me is they have already gone through the slush pile (undoubtedly throwing out a lot of good with the bad)resulting in a good chance the book is at least fair.

The indie world to me is a giant slush pile equivalent to a needle in a haystack. If I want a needle I'm going to go the store and buy a box, even though some of them may be duds, I'm not going to go digging through a haystack.

This could be an interesting way of filtering the hay...

Joe,
Chad,

I have to agree on the slush pile anology. The big publishers at least screen out the below average books (usually). I don't think it's a haystack, it's more of a bin of very sharp needles and you're looking for the one without the poison that will make you sick. (LOL)

Having a place were people can say I just finished this new indie book and it was great. You should read it. might be nice.

Of course, never nominate yourself.

Ok, here's my preliminary idea for the thread. If there is an indie book that somebody thinks should be considered then they could post it on the "Indie Suggestion" thread. I think there should be a requirement that you can only suggest a book that has at least 5 reviews and that it can not be a book that you have written or are involved with in any way. I don't think a 5 review minimum is too much to ask. It would also give people a general idea of what other people think about the book.

Once a suggestion has been made, the book would be added to the suggestion list. Then the obvious idea would be that some people would, maybe?, start to read some of the books on the suggested list. Once you have read the book, you could reply to the thread one of three ways. You could do the book title and -1 for a book you don't like, +1 for a book you like, and +2 for a book you really like. There would be a running total of points and once a book received a certain point level then it would go in a pool to be pulled from for possible monthly reads. Also, on the inverse, if a book reached a certain negative number then it would be pulled from the suggestion list.

What do you guys think? Do you think this would be something that would be doable?

Joe wrote: "Ok, here's my preliminary idea for the thread. If there is an indie book that somebody thinks should be considered then they could post it on the "Indie Suggestion" thread. I think there should be ..."

I fear a thread heading of "Indie Suggestions" will degenerate into self-promoters trying to game the rules, negating Joe's good intentions and creating even more distaste for Indies in general. Sad, but true.

Keep it simple.., if you find a great Indie share it with the group. Special attention is equivalent to "short busing" the writers and will draw flies. :}

Well, you can nominate indie books so long as they're not your own. I've nominated a couple but I'll admit I nominate more from small houses than true indies ....