The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

The tenth week's reading assignment is:

Week Ten - November 11th - November 17th
Part Two - 7. Casablanca - "The Touch of the World," The Sinner's Concourse, and Part Three - 8. A Bits and Pieces War - "Goats Set Out to Lure a Tiger" - pages 280 - 311

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on September 9th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Christopher and Jerome.

Welcome,

~Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Rick Atkinson

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary:

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Glossary - Part One - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary - Part Two - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary - Part Three - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography:

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Rick Atkinson

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Part Two

7. Casablanca

"The Touch of the World"

FDR arrives for the conference. Eisenhower addresses the Chiefs of Staff on operation in North Africa. He reports that there have been delays, but operation SATIN looks promising.

Field Marshal Brooke opposed SATIN, saying there was little coordination with Montgomery, and Rommel had too many men. Eisenhower left the conference room.

Brooke went on to say that, in a larger sense, the Allies must defeat Germany first and Japan will fall right after. It would be best to attack Sicily rather than try to put together a cross channel invasion by September. The attacks in Sicily and then Itay would drain German manpower and equipment away from the Channel, paving the way later for Europe.

Admiral King opposed this idea. He felt the Pacific theater could not be neglected. However, America agreed to this Sicily operation, since the Americans did not have any alternatives.

After FDR endorsed the British plan, he left to meet with General Patton. The president also met with General DeGaulle and Giraud. FDR spoke out for a unconditional surrender for the Axis powers, a powerful statement that surprised Churchill. They talked about it, but Churchill did not expect a public statement just yet.

The Sinner's Concourse

There would be no cross Channel invasion, which left the Russians with little support in Europe. However, the Conference did help improve Anglo-American relations, crucial to future strategy of the war.

8. A Bits and Pieces War

"Goats Set Out to Lure a Tiger"

Operation SATIN was abandoned. Germany was looking to control passes in central and southern Tunisia. On January 18th, they attack in the Ousseltia Valley that gained about eight miles and with heavy French casualties.

General Ward proposed an attack on the town of Maknassy in southern Tunisia. General Fredendall approved, but first, he wanted to attack Sened Station. Ward warned him that this attack would tip off the Germans of the Allies attack on Maknassy.

On January 24th, the Allies easily defeat a small Italian force at Sened Station, but the Germans reinforced Maknassy, and the U.S. 1st Armored Division was split into three parts.

The German worried about Faid Pass, a key area they lost. On January 30th, the Germans attacked, routing a small French force. The French called for U.S. help. However, American response was sluggish and marked by high-level officer feuding, giving time for the German to entrench themselves. The Allies tried to counter-attack, but German anti-tank gunners finished the attack. The only good news for the Allies was that General Wolfgang Fischer was killed.

It is interesting the British thought who was this Ike guy? How did he get high command?!

Yeah, I don't envy Eisenhower. The personalities and egos he had to deal with during the war is incredible.

I love Ike's opinion of Montgomery: "Goddamnit, I can deal with anyody except that son of a bitch!"

Good one, Jerome. Yeah, it must have been brutal with all the delays, lack of supplies, miscommunications, politics, and lack of coordination.

He really got hammered by Brooke at Casablanca.

I like this quote:

"Vice President Henry Wallace had observed that Franklin Roosevelt was a great waterman who could look in one direction while rowing a straight line in another." (p. 298, paperback)

I get a sense that FDR had a modern outlook on the end of imperialism, but that viewpoint did not go very far into the U.S. government.

Seems like Tunisia is a disaster. Don't seem to be able to do anything right.

No doubt, Phillip. It is a topic I just skimmed over in my reading, never really appreciating the mess it was.

It just seems to get worse, and it does not help that the Allies did not have air superiority.

Do you agree with the European Front first idea that the British favored over the Pacific theater?

I agree with the European first strategy. Seems likely Russia would have settled separately if we had opted for Asia first.

Good point, Phillip. Russia did have quite a burden if you think about it.

You do feel for Admiral King, who is fighting in the Pacific; it must have been frustrating, and to see the Torch operation going poorly.

It is interesting, but I think the Americans are beginning to get that kill mentality. In the battle for Sened Station, a platoon leader screamed "kill them all!" (p. 315).

I get the same feeling, Bryan, that the Americans are slowing realizing that the old ways are not going to work against the Germans. The question has become just how many more lives will be sacrificed before someone will step up and begin making informed, intelligent decisions rather than continue on stubbornly.

I apologize for joining so late but I'm catching up!

No worries, Victoria, we will be around, so keep on reading. The book reads fast for some dense stuff.

I suspect there was some WWI mentality that had to be shed for this new kind of war.

Phillip wrote: "I agree with the European first strategy. Seems likely Russia would have settled separately if we had opted for Asia first."

That is an interesting thought - after the Germans made a treaty with the Russians and broke by invasion I think that the likelihood of their settling with the Germans would have been slight but they might have been much more aggressive as they eventually swept west towards the end of the war.

I do wonder at the foundations for the arrogance of some of the American leaders - McQuillan's in particular. Anyway I think that we have to remember that the Germans were not raw recruits and had, the young ones, grown up with Hitler youth and other pretty constant semi-military training.

Thanks Vince, I am not sure where the source is either: a growing power, help save WW1, don't know.

Another comment on this section which I failed to note on hfris comments (because I am so far behind maybe) was a commentary on anti-semitism in America. pg 288 para 1 Roosevelt said "the specific and understandable complaints the Germans bore towards the Jews in Germany?" - I wonder what he was thinking and what his overall position was towards Jews in general.

Good question, I can't recalled his position. I will dig around.

Bryan, have you found anything on his position?

Sorry, I can swing around to this when I have some moments

Hi Fellows - I will keep my mind open going forward like this - sometimes I "think" out loud

Hey Vince no worries (smile) - I was interested to find out what Bryan might have found. He has a lot of great sources and always posts some very interesting articles and references.

Bryan - was very interested in the conversation because of some of the other reading that we have done that comes to mind where these same issues came up - like Roosevelt's Centurions.

by Joseph E. Persico

Sorry Vince; I got sidetracked.

This is a very complex topic and I wish I could give you a easy answer, but I can't.

Apparently, FDR said some mean stuff about Jews in private:

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/...

I don't think it is uncommon, especially in that time period where anti-antisemitism was high in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Here are some more resources:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.p...
http://www.npr.org/2013/03/18/1741258...
by Richard Breitman (no photo)
by Robert L. Beir (no photo)

Thanks Bryan for the adds - for those folks who want to read more and make an assessment.

I often wonder like when we studied Woodrow Wilson that those leaders being from different times had belief systems that need to be judged against the speech and attitude standards of that era - (and not to excuse them in any way) but I think we have come a bit further than then - at least I hope we have.

Thank you so much for the resources, articles, etc.

Woodrow Wilson