Classics and the Western Canon discussion

This article about Dostoevsky is really intriguing to me in relation to _Don Quixote_, and it might give us some ideas for future reading:

http://www.penguinclassics.co.uk/nf/s...

Laurele, Could you please post that link again? I would really like to get to it but for some reason my computer will not let me.

Dianna wrote: "Laurele, Could you please post that link again? I would really like to get to it but for some reason my computer will not let me."

Try this:

http://www.penguinclassics.co.uk/nf/s...

thanks Dianna, i enjoyed that article.
twj

Lalurele posted the article, not me.

I would like to post what I got to be the central message if I may.

"Though one takes the form of comedy and the other as tragedy, both Don Quixote and The Idiot are at bottom about the same thing: the conflict between reality and the ideal.

Thank you very much for posting that link, it was a good read!

whoops, my mistake, sorry dianna; thanks laurele for posting the link. it was a good article.

Dianna wrote: I would like to post what I got to be the central message if I may.

"Though one takes the form of comedy and the other as tragedy, both Don Quixote and The Idiot are at bottom about the same thing: the conflict between reality and the ideal.

Good precis, Dianna!

I have been wondering if anyone has mentally compared Don Quixote with Henry Fielding's Tom Jones. I read it a couple of years ago and I did not like it at all. I guess it was supposed to be written as a comedy but I found it very banal; quite the opposite of Don Quixote. Would anyone care to compare and contrast their literary merit.

Dianna wrote: "I have been wondering if anyone has mentally compared Don Quixote with Henry Fielding's Tom Jones. I read it a couple of years ago and I did not like it at all. I guess it was supposed to be writ..."

I have to confess I've never made it all the way through Tom Jones. So far, Don Quixote is a lot more fun to me and not quite so tedious.

Laurele wrote: "I have to confess I've never made it all the way through Tom Jones. So far, Don Quixote is a lot more fun to me and not quite so tedious."

While I seldom watch movies, I have to admit that having watched the movie of Tom Jones, I was very disappointed in the book, and like you, didn't finish it. One of the few instances where I thought the movie was better than the book.

Here's a link to one of the romances that DQ might well have read.

Interesting. I never considered comparing Don Quixote to Tom Jones before now. They both were long reads for me, and both have a male protagonist who holds a female character as his ideal, but I think I enjoyed DQ more.

TJ seemed to have a lot of sex and violence, which diminished the title character for me -- he behaved less than honorably in a lot of situations. I saw the movie version with Albert Finney afterwards, and it had such a fun and lighthearted tone to it, which I missed entirely from the book, that it made me think I should re-read it. So glad I'm not the only one who enjoyed the movie more than the book in this case.

I haven't seen the movie version of DQ yet -- I think it's called The Man from La Mancha. I did see a clip of it on YouTube, though, after I read the book and specifically the scene where he sings "Impossible Dream." Now, I have heard the song a million times over, spoofed by countless comedians impersonating oily lounge singing acts, and it's always done at a fairly moderate pace. But the movie song was done very slow and soulfully, making such a poignant scene that I nearly cried. Like with TJ, there was a contrast there for me between the book and the movie -- except with DQ, the book was fun, while the movie scene was so moving it made the story seem more sad.

Makes me wonder how the screenwriters felt about the books before adapting them for the screen.

thanks for that link, eman.

Patrice wrote: "I would not say that Man of LaMancha is the movie version of DQ. Man of LaMancha was written by Dale Wasserman. It is the story of Cervantes imprisonment, and he uses the characters of DQ but cre..."

Good to know! I'll keep that in mind if ever I catch it on cable. Do you recommend the Orson Welles version?

I will need to re-read DQ, as it has been years, but I do remember it breaking my heart, especially near the end when the title character seemed tired and broken.

These general comments about finding DQ funny, heartbreaking, etc. are fine, and good to know, but let's be careful not to get into specifics yet since they may contain spoilers for those reading it for the first time or re-reading it after some time when the details are no longer fresh.

BTW, I agree that Man of La Mancha is not a play (film now?) of DQ. I saw it on stage and enjoyed it, but as its own work, not as an adaptation of DQ.

Apologies if I've spoiled it for anyone, but as I don't remember the specifics myself, I don't think I gave away much.

I don't have Netflix -- we don't use our DVD player much (or at all since we never reinstalled it after our last move) -- so I'll have to watch out for the Orson Welles version On Demand. I'd buy it for watching on my laptop, but good God! It's almost $23 on Amazon.

I really like that movie adaptations have been brought up. I love watching movie versions after I've read the book and seeing how the screenwriter and director saw the story -- it adds another perspective. I especially love watching Jane Austen films. I've read nearly all of her books, a few at least a dozen times, and I've seen quite a number of the movie adaptations, too, and I never get tired of comparing them all -- what scenes they kept in, what they left out, how they played certain scenes and lines. I remember passionately HATING the 1940 version of Pride and Prejudice (one of my all-time favorite books), where Laurence Olivier played Mr. Darcy, because it wasn't AT ALL close to the book, and the costumes looked like Gone with the Wind leftovers. I was so mad at the production, I nearly stopped watching the movie halfway through it.

April wrote: "Apologies if I've spoiled it for anyone, but as I don't remember the specifics myself, I don't think I gave away much. ..."

Nobody did yet. I wasn't criticizing any of the posts to date; they were all very appropriate. I just wanted to lay out a caution against possible future spoiler posts. Sorry if it sounded like a criticism of anybody's posts so far.

April wrote: "I don't have Netflix --so I'll have to watch out for the Orson Welles version On Demand. I'd buy it for watching on my laptop, but good God! It's almost $23 on Amazon."

That's what Interlibrary Loan is for!

Everyman wrote: "Sorry if it sounded like a criticism of anybody's posts so far."

Not at all! :) The word of caution was a good one, especially in my case as I do tend to spoil endings for people in general (i.e., offline as well as online). It's usually inadvertent on my part. I know of people who absolutely have to be surprised, and I know of others who skip to the ending first before reading the entire book. Me, I'm neither and both -- I like being surprised, and yet I like reading a book again after I've finished it and know the ending, so I can focus on where the author puts in the foreshadowing of events -- so I forget sometimes that people might not be on the same wavelength.

Everyman wrote: "That's what Interlibrary Loan is for!"

Good suggestion, thanks! I always forget that the library loans out movies, too. I think the one in my area charges an annual fee to those who want to borrow media, but it should be a fairly low cost. I'll definitely look into it.

Wow, thanks for the info.

Patrice wrote: "...1572- battle of Lepanto (Spain vs Turks) Cervantes wounded, sold into slavery"

From what I've read, your prof may have taken a shortcut here. I've read that he spent four years after the battle of Lepanto sailing around (as part of the navy? Some other reason??) before being captured by Barbary pirates.

According to the online Columbia Encyclopedia:

In 1570 he enlisted in the army and fought in the naval battle of Lepanto (1571), receiving a wound that permanently crippled his left arm. While returning to Spain in 1575 he was captured by Barbary pirates and was sold as a slave; he eventually became the property of the viceroy of Algiers. After many attempted escapes, he was ransomed in 1580, at a cost that brought financial ruin to himself and to his family.

thewanderingjew wrote: "Wow, thanks for the info.
"

Since you all bring up Shakespeare I just want to throw this out; I know it may sound crazy, but sometimes I am. Yesterday the thought crossed my mind that maybe Don Quixote and Shakespeare were the same person...

I should say Cervantes and Shakespeare...

ENJOY!
http://www.britishtheatreguide.info/a...

WOW!

If only I could figure out how to post The Idiot and The Trial, for future reads, on the bookshelf...then I might agree! LOL

thewanderingjew wrote: "If only I could figure out how to post The Idiot and The Trial, for future reads, on the bookshelf...then I might agree! LOL

"
'Tis done.

thewanderingjew wrote: "ENJOY!
http://www.britishtheatreguide.info/a..."

GACK! This stuff makes me crazy. Why can't people just believe that Shakespeare wrote what Shakespeare wrote? (Or that Cervantes wrote what he wrote?) I don't mind this sort of idea as a thought experiment, but I get hot under the collar when they insist it's true.

I don't want to rant or start a big argument here, but I couldn't let this go by without saying something... otherwise I would explode (and that would be messy). :)

Kit wrote:
GACK! This stuff makes me crazy. Why can't people just believe that Shakespeare wrote what Shakespeare wro..."

I just roll my eyes and ignore it. But did I ever tell you about the time I was abducted by some funny little bipeds?

I guess people just like controversy...maybe it makes life more interesting...if you don't take it too seriously, but still, can anyone tell me how to add the books The Trial and The Idiot to the bookshelf for future reads?

thewanderingjew wrote: "... but still, can anyone tell me how to add the books The Trial and The Idiot to the b..."

You mean Kafka's The Trial and Dostoevsky's The Idiot? because I just did an "add books" search and found both of them easily...

i can find them but they keep getting added to the wrong bookshelf thread, not the future reads thread but the to read or read thread. i don't know what i am doing wrong. i thought i had added the trial last week but it was on the wrong thread so i deleted it and tried to add both of them today several times but had to delete them because they kept coming up in the wrong place. maybe it is my browser having issues. i use mozilla. i could try it in explorer.
thanks for trying to help me.

Laurele, thank you from the bottom of my heart. now, another favor, how did you do it???
personally, i think i am having software issues but before i bring the computer back to where it was reloaded, i want to make sure.
thanks again.

thewanderingjew wrote: "Laurele, thank you from the bottom of my heart. now, another favor, how did you do it???
personally, i think i am having software issues but before i bring the computer back to where it was reloade..."

Hmmm. I clicked 'Add Books' at the bottom of the page, then searched by title, and then clicked 'Add to group' and then 'Save group book.'

are you talking about the suggested future readings on the bookshelf page? i don't have anything on the bottom of the page that says add books. interesting...i do have it on the top of the page, but when i used that, it added it to the wrong shelf. it has to be an error in the way my page is loading. thanks for everything.

thewanderingjew wrote: "are you talking about the suggested future readings on the bookshelf page? i don't have anything on the bottom of the page that says add books. interesting...i do have it on the top of the page, bu..."

Down at the very bottom of my Classics and the Western Canon main page there's a bookshelf showing five of seven books members have added as want-to-reads. Then below that, on the right, it says 'add books/more books.'

i just looked, and i found what you are referring to which is on the bottom of the main page. the 5 books listed are not on the future reads shelf. there are actually 6 on the future reads shelf.
four of the books shown are on the future reads. bleak house is not on the future reads. the republic and crime and punishment are but they aren't pictured. i know it worked for you but i need more time to explore this website because i want to understand it too.
again, i owe you a debt of gratitude for your patience as well as your help.

On adding books: When you add a book anywhere, I think it tends to add it to the read shelf. You can change that when you are adding it with the not very obvious "shelf" selection. But you can also wait until a book is on the bookshelf, then on the very right is a selection for "edit." As moderator I can edit any book; I don't know whether others can, or can only edit ones they put up. Anyhow, when you select the edit option, on the page you get is a line saying Shelves. Unfortunately you HAVE to choose either "read", "to read", or "currently reading." So we need to choose "to read" for most books posted here. Then you can also check on the "suggested future readings" shelf.

Save your way out, and it's there.

I think also when you add a book here and it's a book you have marked on your shelves, your selection carries over, but I'm not sure.

Anyhow, I've cleaned up the bookshelf for the time being so nothing is read (I put in an end date of June 30 for Oedipus Rex; will be interesting to see whether Goodreads automatically moves it to the "read" shelf then or not. If not, I'll do it.)

muchos gracias

Sometimes when I am having browser issues I can't accomplish the things i want to accomplish and then I just stop and try again later and usually that works for me. My computer is not optimum.

I don't know why it bothers some people so much for unusual and non-traditional ideas to be explored. I wasn't saying it was a fact, I was just thinking about the possibliities. I don't think it was really necessary to get so worked up about it. You have to understand about me that I am not a traditional thinker so if something I suggest doesn't make sense to you then you can just ignore it, please.

I guess I could just leave my thoughts to myself but then what fun would that be?

You are more patient than I am. Usually, I just want to pick up the computer and throw it across the room. You are right, however, sometimes the problem even corrects itself because it is a problem in cyberspace having nothing at all to do with my recalcitrant computer.
BTW, I hope none of my comments offended you. I like unusual, thinking people. Actually, I like people!

I, personally, am not very easily offended. I think, however, that I offend others too easily because I am too blunt and that is not my intention. You have not offended me at all.

Thank you Patrice :)

I certainly agree with those who support unconventional and original thinking -- I've been accused of it often enough myself, and used to encourage it in my students.

However, as I also warned my students, when I express such ideas myself I expect to be prepared for skepticism or even dismay, which I think comes with the territory of unconventional thinking and has done so since man developed speech (and perhaps before). Fortunately we don't any longer require those who think unconventionally to drink hemlock (Socrates) or burned to death (Giordano Bruno, who a decade or two before Galileo also claimed that the earth moved around the sun; Galileo was merely (merely!) threatened with torture and sentenced to lifetime imprisonment, served under a sort of house arrest.

So yes, definitely, think unconventionally.

But also, equally definitely, expect to be challenged!

Everyman wrote: "Patrice wrote: "...1572- battle of Lepanto (Spain vs Turks) Cervantes wounded, sold into slavery"

From what I've read, your prof may have taken a shortcut here. I've read that he spent four years..."

I read a book about the Christian slaves/ hostages that were captured by the 'Moors' (who originated from different Muslim states around the Mediterannean) called White Gold by Giles Milton. Apparently hostages were not only captured in wars, like Cervantes, but also captured during peace time on open seas, or even abducted from their coastal villages. The hostages (and their ransoms) were a huge industry. Some became 'renegades' (converts to Islam) and gained high govermental positions in their adopted countries.

I suppose so. The interesting thing is that many of these slave-taking expeditions were sponsored, or at least supported, by the rulers of those countries. I was suprised to learn that many of the great palaces erected by Moulay Ismail, a !7th century Moroccan sultan, were built using the labor of thousands of Christian captives from Europe. It's a pity that Cervantes never wrote an account of his captivity in Algiers, but I guess that the closest we will ever get to it is the story of the captive in DQ.

Sandybanks wrote: "I read a book about the Christian slaves/ hostages that were captured by the 'Moors' (who originated from different Muslim states around the Mediterannean) called White Gold by Giles Milton. Apparently hostages were not only captured in wars, like Cervantes, but also captured during peace time on open seas, or even abducted from their coastal villages. The hostages (and their ransoms) were a huge industry."

The more things change ...

Isn't this exactly what's happening off Somalia today? Capturing ships and crews for ransom?

Edit -- ah, after rssponding to the post, I see Patrice beat me to the same idea!

Laljit wrote: "This is meant to be a repository of reference material regarding the book, the author, and the context of the novel.

Don Quixote's Diagnosis: An Historical Approach

http://www.fictionethics.org/aps/Pape...

I'll soon be on my way to Ashland, Oregon, for the Oregon Shakespeare Festival. I'll be seeing nine of these plays, all the plays that are still playing:

http://www.osfashland.org/

Don Quixote will be Tuesday night. I'll let you know if the production gives me any new insights into the book.

http://www.osfashland.org/browse/prod...

Last night I watched Orson Welles's unfinished film of Don Quixote. Don't tell Everyman, but there was a motorcycle in it.