North & South discussion

I recently came across this article/blog post (found at: http://www.westofmilton.com) and found it extremely interesting.

"So who is George Thornton? If you have not had the opportunity to read the book yet, you might not know. George is Hannah’s husband and father to both John and Fanny. The father Thornton speaks of in both the book and the adaptation as falling prey to his failure and taking his own life. For as long as I have been a fan of the story, over and over I’ve heard/read assumptions or guesses into the type of character that George was. Many assume that he was weak and more flighty like his daughter Fanny. Yet is that a fair assumption?

These assumptions are largely based on his last act here on earth. Yet they may not be an accurate depiction of the man. Gaskell does not give us a direct description of George, except for this last act of desperation. My own view changed a few years ago when I researched a bit more deeply, what might have driven, even a strong man, to such lengths. One element that lead me to research this more deeply was Hannah’s worry concerning her son when the mill fails at the end of the story. Even though she knew her son was strong, she still feared what the failure of the mill might do to him. This got me to wondering, was this fear unfounded or based on experience? If George had truly been a more weak-minded man, wouldn’t she have reasoned that John was not his father and had more confidence in his strength?

Still worry is worry, it rarely operates under the rules of reason. So it is still possible that though John was different from his father that she still would fear for how he might react. Yet, the question still was piqued in my mind. Had George been stronger than we give him credit? Could it be the failure, shame and impending large debt was the element that had pushed a strong man to the edge? That pressed me further.. what exactly was George facing when he made the horrible decision?

A few things are easy to identify. Deep shame brought upon his family. The reputation of being a man who took advantage of friends and fellow business associates. The reputation of being a bad business man and therefore a risk. Then there is the question of whether he was duped himself? Was he carrying the shame of being a fool? All of these things I am sure plagued his mind. Yet there is still more. What future did he face? The reality is debtor’s prison or the workhouse. In our modern times we don’t truly understand what this entailed, at least I will admit that I had no idea.

One of the possible futures for George was the Workhouse. Wikipedia states that this institution had been created to “deal” with growing population of the poor. The idea was to create a place where the poor could live and work for their keep. The living conditions of such places were described as horrid and debilitating. This was designed to discourage the poor from just remaining there. Families were often housed separately, even separating mother’s from their children.

Another strong possibility would be Debtor’s Prison. If any one of George’s debtors brought charges against him and he was found to be unable to pay, he would be sent to prison. Again, Wikipedia describes this place as having deplorable living conditions. If you read specifically the information pertaining to Britain in the Victorian age, the inmates were forced to pay for their keep. Inmates were either forced to work for the state or the responsibility was left to the family members on the outside to fulfil this need.

Though these places were technically different, in reality, they carried much the same punishment and shame. In some of my research, it is said that the line between these two institutions became blurred and hard to distinguish. Whether this was fact or not, they both were prisons by all senses of the word.

The shame associated with both of these institutions was immense and could follow a man to his grave, even if he did manage to pay off his debts. It was a spot that would affect him, his wife and children. We know that John was only able to redeem his family name by repaying this debt, long after his father’s death.

Placing this all into perspective, it is much more conceivable to allow the idea that George may not have been weak-minded through the bulk of his life. All we know for sure is the impending future and strife that he had brought down upon himself and his wife and young children was more than he could face."

What are your thoughts on George Thornton? Have you spent any time considering this mysterious man? What thoughts does this post inspire? Please discuss. :)

I suspect it was the failure of business which got to Mr. Thorton Sr. His son faced almost the save predicament, fortunately for him, he had someone to relieve him from that debt but his father was not so fortunate.

Do you think Mr John Thornton would have acted the same way as his father, upon the failing of the business? I personally think (with a few tiny doubts) that John would have fought on. I mean, he had shown he was strong enough to lift his family from debt once. I suppose the question is whether the responsibility of having to do that again would have weighed too heavily on him.

With his defiant mother, she would fight "tooth and nails" to see to it that John did not end up like his father. She was hard on him, so he could be better both in business and as a man. John had his mother spunk.

Hahahahaha "mother spunk". :D Nice way to phrase it. But in essence I think you are right. With his mothers support and his own strong character, John Thornton would have pulled through. There is also the consideration that this time he would only have had two people to look after - Fanny was properly taken care of from her entering into a good marriage.

true.

In The Count of Monte Cristo, one of the Count's friends is planning to commit suicide when his business fails and he can't pay his debts. He states very strongly to his son that his honor requires him to do this. This was set in France, not England, but it was also written in the 1800s, and Thornton's father (and perhaps Elizabeth Gaskell) may have had a similar view, that suicide is honorable in this situation.

You might be right about that, Tadiana! I can't say I agree with that view, though - surely it would be more honourable to work at regaining your position and then pay back your debts, as John Thornton did? And surely the creditors would find being repaid a lot later than expected rather better than not being paid at all...

Suicide was considered honourable if their continued existence would result in shame and scandal in the upper classes, I wouldn't have considered it an acceptable way out in this situation.

I'm not saying it's right or it makes sense, just that that was a prevailing view at the time, at least in some parts of upper crust society. Kind of like dueling--guys thought honor required it, in situations where we think it's foolish.

Do you think Thorntons were upper class before his father lost all his money? I got the impression that they were fairly genteel.

I don't think there are many of us who would say it was right or it made sense, to be honest, but I suppose we do just have to consider the time period, and the enormous pressure that John's father would have been under. Just saying, I prefer John's method of dealing with hardship, i.e. dealing with it. :)

In answer to your question, Tadiana, yes - I did get the impression that the Thornton's were relatively high up in society before the speculation went badly wrong. At the very least we know that John was at school, so we can assume that they were well off.

I wished we knew exactly what George's business had been and the relative wealth of the family. Hannah has that black lace that Maria knows must be an heirloom. Hannah and George had exquisite Damask table linens - the kind you can't get anymore. There are hints that they were well off.
John wasn't in the same situation as his father when the mill closed. He knew the business was sliding and made sure everything was paid off before closing the doors forever. He had no debts. He just had no business to earn any income. He had to look for work, but had obviously some money to do so at his leisure as he turned down the offer to work with Hamper's son.

It would be so great to know for certain, wouldn't it? There are clues, as you pointed out - but a more exact explanation would be brilliant.

See, that is one of the things I love about John Thornton - even when his business was failing, he refused to speculate, and ensured that he had no debts before going to look for work himself. In the face of the way John deals with his financial problems, I find it hard to respect the actions of his father. But in a way, I suppose in part John knew how to deal with such a situation because he learned from the hardship he experienced upon his fathers death.

Exactly. His father had been an example of what NOT to do.
I still think George must have had his fine points. Hannah would never have been attracted to him otherwise. I think there's one line in the book that hints that John believes his father was led into speculation by unscrupulous minds.

Well, yay for Thornton senior, I guess - whatever else he may have done, he was a perfect example to John of how not to deal with things like that.

Yes, I do too! It would take a remarkable man to attract Hannah, and I'm sure there were many circumstances that we don't know about which would make his situation even more tragic than it already seems to the reader. Despite his manifold possible finer points, however, I do find it hard to respect a decision to kill yourself, leaving a wife and two young children behind you.

Agreed, it's difficult to respect. It's always a selfish decision in the end - leaving tremendous pain for those left behind. But I do sympathize with those who get to the point where they feel they cannot cope - we've all reached certain levels of that kind of desperation.
The debtor's options back then were rather heinous. And shame and honor were a much bigger deal.

Completely agree with you on all points. :)

Wow, we are a blessed group of ladies...we agree on everything even when we agree to disagree. ;) I know I'm being a smart ass but I'm really loving this group :D

I know, I so love this group! None of us are ever irritated at each other. We're all intelligent and sensible ladies and we can always reach some sort of agreement. :) It's great that you're having such a good time here, Samanta.

Well, I'm constantly here and I have to finish my Master Thesis. Enough said! :D

Aw no, you still have to finish it? :( If it helps, it's almost one in the morning, and I'm still here...

Writing a Thesis is a process...an especially hard one when you have to write it in a hurry after a long time of working and procrastinating on free days :D Go to sleep, woman! :D

Well, I knew it was a long process... poor you. :(

Haha, yes ma'am! :D I am going, now that it's two in the morning... oh dear... that's what I get for turning on Lord of the Rings Extended Edition commentaries relatively late at night. *facepalm*