North & South discussion

What are your thoughts and ideas about this character?

Our opinions will follow :)

I wish Frederick were more interesting to me. Even though he stood up to a bad captain, I don't find him as strong a character as Margaret, and I don't feel like Gaskell spends enough time developing him.
I don't know if it's some weird bias in me or in the book, but I feel like Frederick has given up by deciding to settle in Spain with his Dolores. Maybe Margaret feels that way too - a man who could settle for that is not the same man she thought he was.

I can't remember- is Fred younger than Margaret? That would make him very young indeed to be settling down.

Also - is it meaningful that Mr.Hale leaves the clergy because of an obscure doctrinal (historical even for him!) issue and Frederick is going to convert to Catholicism?

Fred is several years older than Margaret. In another group read it was pointed out that Frederick and this captain seemed to personally dislike each other. And if you read carefully, you can see that Gaskell is casting Fredrick as rather impetuous. So although the mutiny has some moral credibility, there might have been room to doubt Frederick's judgment here.
I really like Gaskell's constant challenge, though, to blandly following authority in various aspects. She seems to be making the reader ponder when and where it is important or wise to follow individual conviction as opposed to obeying/following the regular rules/authority.

I agree on all counts, Trudy. Frederick is impetuous - much of what he does is poorly thought out, from the mutiny to returning to England to shoving Leonards. He doesn't behave wrongly - all his actions are the result of strong emotion and an inner compass and most are the moral course - but he doesn't seem to act because of the moral rightness but because of his emotion.

I agree too that Gaskell is leading the reader to think about obedience and authority. It always startles me because her characters seem so very modern to me, that her themes are so Victorian.

I think Frederick is an interesting character, but as you say, not that exciting or well explored/developed. I always wished that he would have made more of an effort as it does seem as though he has just given up - it is great that he comes back to his mothers aid. but then he goes back over to Spain and settles in Spain, and we hear nothing more from him, even after Mr Hale has died, leaving Margaret family-less in England. Though, I suppose if he was discovered in England he would have hung for mutiny. But, I never warmed greatly to Fred.

I agree on all counts with the points on Fredericks impetuosity - though I should like to think that his morality plays a greater part than some of you seem to believe.

I must ask though (this being more specifically aimed at Soph); is it really fair to condemn Frederick for returning to and settling in Spain? I mean, he had a good position and a woman he loved, so I never found any fault with him staying in Spain. Especially as all that would welcome him in England would have been the hangman's noose. Hopefully not for a while, but it would have happened.

Does the book ever clarify whether Margaret and Henry were able to help Fredericks case? To enable him to return to England safely?

Well I understand why he returned to Spain, it just felt strange that we hear like nothing from him when he goes back, even after him fathers death. I know he couldn't settle in England again, but why not ask Margaret to join him?

I do not quite remember if the book says about the results but I seem to remember Frederick pretty much being out of the picture when he returns after his mothers death.

I know the reader/audience hears almost nothing from him again after he returns to Spain, but you would hope that Margaret would receive letters or something like that. And this was probably just in the series, but didn't he suggest at one point that Margaret come to Spain?

Ah, well, that kinda sucks. :(

I think he did but that was before their father died.
He completely vanishes in the series and, as I said, I am not entirely sure about the exact details of the book...

He sends letters to Margaret. Dolores even writes and sends a gift. She hears from him.
I never seriously considered why or why not she might move to Spain, as that wouldn't have worked in the plot! ;) The fact that it was a Catholic country would've been a huge deal. Dixon was even afraid to visit! Lol.
Margaret was hoping to visit someday, but I don't think it was ever mentioned that she considered moving there.
And yes, there's a section near the end where Henry has to tell her that every hope in trying to get Fred back is dead.
Gaskell is effectively eliminating her friendly/family ties one by one...so that her longing for love and home is heightened. It makes it all the more powerful to have Thornton fill that need. (They're both so terribly lonely! - another theme of this story that pulls at my heartstrings.)

Thank you Trudy - it is nice to know that Fred and Dolores at least stay in touch.
To me, Margaret - though she can be a little adventurous - never really seemed the type to go gallivanting off to live in a completely new country. I mean, to move to the North of your own country is one thing... to move to Spain would be quite another! Still, I rather think she would have visited at some point. :)

Oh, that's sad they couldn't get Fred back. :(

It was terribly sad, the amount of people that Margaret lost over the course of a very short space of time. You're right though, of course it made her long for decent companionship, and Thornton would at first have been such an unlikely candidate to provide it! Honestly though, I was so happy at the end of the story to see their loneliness fade away in each others company, it was so awful to see them both suffering inside themselves with no-one to hold them up.

Okay here is an element of Fred's character that never sat well with me. Now before I say it.. I need to say that I do understand that this was common in these days.

Yet.. I've never liked how the family, living on reduced income had to send Fred money. I think it also played into the idea of Fred being idealistic (hmmm someone else we know was rather idealistic could it run in the family?) and as Trudy points out, impetuous. For me, there is also this edge of being "spoiled" to him. I don't dislike his character, in fact, when he leaves Milton after his mother's death, I was pleased to see him regret not being able to 'be there' for his sister. I think he truly loved and cherished his family!

Good points LoriBear! :) I'm sure after the mutiny Fred couldn't really help the fact that his family had to send him money - they're a very loving family, would they ever do otherwise? But you are very right, I always felt that 'spoiled edge' with Fred as well. Not that he was inherently selfish or anything, just that he sometimes had a tendency to vaguely childish resentment when he came across something he didn't like.

As to being idealistic, I think it probably does run in the family! Though I think we could all agree that the children got it from their father, and not their mother.