Foucault's Pendulum discussion

Thread for discussion of Foucault's Pendulum from start of Chapter 28 to end of Chapter 38.

Agliè makes his appearance in this section and I couldn't help but wonder where all his knowledge on occultism came from. He seems the sort of beguiling type with all his sweet talk and good manners that so much charms Amparo and then that reference linking him to the Compte de Saint-Germain...mmmm, suspicious.

Eco seems to be doing the rounds of confidence tricksters in this section what with the Comte de Saint-Germain and Cagliostro...

As Agliè says: That's why the conquering god of that era was Hermes, inventor of all trickery, god of crossroads and thieves. He was also the creator of writing, which is the art of evasion and dissimulation and a navigation that carries us to the end of all boundaries, where everything dissolves into the horizon, where cranes lift stones from the ground and weapons transform life into death, and water pumps make heavy matter float, and philosophy deludes and deceives.... And do you know where Hermes is today? Right here. You passed him when you came through the door. ' They call him Exu, messenger of the gods, go-between, trader, who is ignorant of the difference between good and evil."

Something I've been wondering, is why Eco decided to take the narrative specifically to Brazil. There must be a reason, but it's not striking me in the face...

I'd assumed he just liked Brazil. One can sometimes have a passion for a country not their own, and what better way to express it than to set a story there?

I haven't read in a while, so I'll need to catch up some, it seems. So much to do! So little time!

I've also thought that its probably because Brazil has such a strong occult leaning. But besides that, Eco is bringing in some politics too. He is for example, bringing in the whole question of whether its better to remain undeveloped and 'natural', or to become industrialized and lose your link with nature.

I must admit the whole idea has me in a quandary. I like the cushy benefits of modern technology, but what we're doing to nature and our ecosystems kills me inside.

In any case, I've just realized yet again how very ignorant I am re the Spanish civil war (something which I aim to remedy this year.)

I hadn't before realized that ¡No Pasarán! comes from a speech by Dolores Ibárruri, given in regard of the Spanish Civil War, being her 'battlecry appeal for the defense of the Second Spanish Republic, given before press microphones in the Government Ministry Building in Madrid, representing the position of the Spanish Communist Party, which was then a part of the Popular Front Government, on 19 July 1936.'


Workers! Farmers! Anti-fascists! Spanish Patriots! Confronted with the fascist military uprising, all must rise to their feet, to defend the Republic, to defend the people's freedoms as well as their achievements towards democracy! Through the statements by the government and the Popular Front (parties), the people understand the graveness of the moment.

In Morroco, as well as in the Canary Islands, the workers are battling, united with the forces still loyal to the Republic, against the uprising militants and fascists. Under the battlecry 'Fascism shall not pass; the hangmen of October shall not pass!' workers and farmers from all Spanish provinces are joining in the struggle against the enemies of the Republic that have arisen in arms. Communists, Socialists, Anarchists, and Republican Democrats, soldiers and (other) forces remaining loyal to the Republic combined have inflicted the first defeats upon the fascist foe, who drag through the mud the very same honourable military tradition that they have boasted to possess so many times. The whole country cringes in indignation at these heartless barbarians that would hurl our democratic Spain back down into an abyss of terror and death.

However, THEY SHALL NOT PASS!

For all of Spain presents itself for battle. In Madrid, the people are out in the streets in support of the Government and encouraging its decision and fighting spirit so that it shall reach its conclusion in the smashing of the militant and fascist insurrection.

Ha!
"And the Rosicrucians themselves?"
"Deathly silence. Post CXX annos patebo, my ass. They watched, from the vacuum of their palace. I believe it was their silence that agitated everyone so much. The fact that they didn't answer was taken as proof of their existence.

Isn't that typical?

I loved (and love) that last line!

Yes, those few chapters are so ironical, aren't they? You can just see Eco's cheek bulging with the big tongue-in-cheek that he wrote it with. All those contradictions makes a person's head spin!

What is very interesting to me in this section, is the dominance of 'magic' in the syncretized religious practices of South America, and how well all these different belief systems have melded.

I liked the 'definition' of Hermes, including "the creator of writing, which is the art of evasion an dissimulation."

Ruth wrote: "I liked the 'definition' of Hermes, including "the creator of writing, which is the art of evasion an dissimulation.""

Nice! I was probably a bit dozy there and missed that at the time, so thanks for lifting it out. Eco drops these witty little jewels of humor all over the show and one has to be awake to catch them, but they're so enjoyable if you do.

Btw, I love the way he discusses texts with us, by making it a discussion between Casaubon and Amaparo, with Amparo throwing in a bunch of barbed asides.

Yeah, there are times I think I like her better than him, even if (or because?) she is a bit sharp.

Here's a job I always wanted to have: I would set up a cultural investigation agency, be a kind of private eye of learning.

Hmm, so exactly what happened in Brazil with Casaubon after Amparo's er... mystic experience? I had initially thought he'd actually liked that she was, you know, Brazilian deep down in her spirit, or, as they would say 'in her womb', in spite of having a Western education.

I feel like I'm missing something there.

This 'job' was after Casaubon returned to Europe.

On the page before Gevurah, and the morning after Amparo's experience, she announces she is visiting a girlfriend in Petropolis. Two month later she did the 'I need time' letter. Casaubon left Brazil after another year.

Yes, but that's what I mean. Wha..? How come their experiences at the umbanda had broken them up? I mean what had happened to them in an emotional sense?

Did Amparo imagine she could shake off her deep cultural roots and become "European"? ..and then, via the experiences at the umbanda, both she and Casaubon realized that her culture was too deeply ingrained in her for her to ever completely break it off? Did she then avoid C. because he knew this and it would always be a wedge between them bec. she knew he knew, and besides, his presence would be a reminder of her 'failure'? (in her eyes).

Oh golly, ROFL!!! This Umberto Eco person is funny funny, geniunely, sidesplittingly funny!

Are you saying, I asked, that a person has a breakdown not because he is divorced but on account of the divorce, which may or may not happen, of the third party, that is, of the one who created the crisis for the couple of which he is a member?

Wagner looked at me with the puzzlement of a layman who encounters a mentally disturbed person for the first time. He asked me what I meant. To tell the truth, whatever I meant, I had expressed it badly. I tried to be more concrete. I took a spoon from the table and put it next to a fork. Here, this is me, Spoon, married to her, Fork. And here is another couple: she's Fruit Knife, married to Steak Knife, alias Mackie Messer.

Now I, Spoon, believe I'm suffering because I have to leave Fork and I don't want to; I love Fruit Knife, but it's all right with me if she stays with Steak Knife. And now you're telling me, Dr. Wagner, that the real reason I'm suffering is that Fruit Knife won't leave Steak Knife. Is that it?

Hilarious, while at the same time eloquently describing the semiotic relationship between the signifier, referent and signified. :D Brilliant!

Just a quick aside: This->> Come and let the boss touch you; the boss's touch heals scrofula refers to the belief in the middle ages that the touch of a monarch could cure TB. (One of the names for TB was 'scrofula'.)

Thank you! I was just now rereading that bit and thinking once again...What is that?

Ugh, GR just swallowed my comment and I'm not going to retype..

In any case, please feel free to populate this thread a bit more, there's so much going on that it would take ages if I were to comment on everything, so I'm just commenting on snippets that interest me, but I'd like to see what you guys all find interesting. :)

In any case, thread 5 continues here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Traveller wrote: "I've also thought that its probably because Brazil has such a strong occult leaning. But besides that, Eco is bringing in some politics too. He is for example, bringing in the whole question of wh..."

Trav, nice post and I think that very fitting reference to why Eco might have wanted to include Brazil and that mystifying experience as the trigger of an "obsession" to find meaning and analogies everywhere. So vast was Casaubon's fixation that he even found parallels between Brazilian voodoo beliefs and European tradition (with the help of suspicious Agliè).

What most struck me about this part is this need to find meaning in symbols and signs, to find meaning everywhere. Even words are presented as nothing more than physical marks on a piece of paper. The importance of signs is their ability to convey meaning and meaning is ultimately located in the mind of the individual rather than in the signs themselves. So might there be meaning after all or just the need to find meaning?

Traveller wrote: "Hmm, so exactly what happened in Brazil with Casaubon after Amparo's er... mystic experience? I had initially thought he'd actually liked that she was, you know, Brazilian deep down in her spirit,..."

My intake of it was that Amparo, having considered herself an European at heart (a materialistic Marxist) and being an sceptic of her Brazilian heritage, she felt ashamed after becoming possessed in the ceremony and that's why she left Casaubon. I guess she had to struggle against an inner conflict: imposed reason or natural mysticism.
I could understand her conflicted reaction but I didn't understand Casaubon's lack of interest in keeping her. I guess he had other things, like the meaning of existence, in his mind! ;P

Dolors wrote: "What most struck me about this part is this need to find meaning in symbols and signs, to find meaning everywhere. Even words are presented as nothing more than physical marks on a piece of paper. The importance of signs is their ability to convey meaning and meaning is ultimately located in the mind of the individual rather than in the signs themselves."

Wonderful to see you posting here, Dolors, welcome back!

You seem to have Eco himself down to a 'T' there, as well as the definition of semiotics. (The study of signs, symbols and how humans process 'meaning'.) As we had said in our background thread, Eco's studies started off in Medieval aesthetics, through which I think at some point he started becoming fascinated with heresies and heretics and focused on societies like the Templars - one sees a similar focus on heretics in his first novel, The Name of the Rose. ..and then later in his life, his focus moved to semiotics, so much so, that he is more well-known as a semiotician than for his work in aesthetic theory.

Dolors wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Hmm, so exactly what happened in Brazil with Casaubon after Amparo's er... mystic experience? I had initially thought he'd actually liked that she was, you know, Brazilian deep d..."

Yeah, I agree about Amparo. She had always spoken about her culture with derision, and here it turns out that she's a part of it whether she wants to be or not.

But rather, Casaubon's reaction is the one that puzzled me. I'd been wondering if he perhaps was waiting for her to get over it and make contact again, and after floating around for about a year, he realized it wasn't going to happen, so he gave up waiting and floated back to Italy again.

Traveller wrote: "Dolors wrote: "What most struck me about this part is this need to find meaning in symbols and signs, to find meaning everywhere. Even words are presented as nothing more than physical marks on a p..."

I have been re-reading Pessoa's The Book of Disquiet these past days and I was astonished to detect the use of semiotics and aphorisms in his novel. I did a bit of research and it seems Pessoa was very interested in secret societies and occultism and that he had an esoteric approach to existence with was mostly unknown at the time. The influences of symbols and signs in language and literature amazes me because I had never given it a second thought - not until reading FP- and it seems it has had a significant impact in the history of thought.

http://www.nthposition.com/themagical...

http://faena.com/en/content/fernando-...

Traveller wrote: "Dolors wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Hmm, so exactly what happened in Brazil with Casaubon after Amparo's er... mystic experience? I had initially thought he'd actually liked that she was, you know, B..."

Yes, Amparo is overwhelmed by the power of her unconscious mind which turns out to be pretty opposite to how she has constructed herself consciously. One way of dealing with Causaubon having witnessed that was not to have contact with him again I suppose!

I don't know what Causaubon could have done really, you can't force someone to want to be with you.

Dolors wrote: "The influences of symbols and signs in language and literature amazes me because I had never given it a second thought - not until reading FP- and it seems it has had a significant impact in the history of thought."

Oh, yes, it has quite a significance especially if you're primed to look out for it. It's something I find very interesting, and something that keeps revealing itself the more you look for it. That's why I love discussing books so much, because other people often see things that I hadn't spotted myself. :)

Thanks for the links!

Jan-Maat wrote: "I don't know what Causaubon could have done really, you can't force someone to want to be with you."

He could perhaps have tried to re-assure her that a similar thing could have happened to anyone under the circumstances, but maybe he wasn't convinced enough of that himself... *shrug*

Dolors wrote: "My intake of it was that Amparo, having considered herself an European at heart (a materialistic Marxist) and being an sceptic of her Brazilian heritage, she felt ashamed after becoming possessed in the ceremony and that's why she left Casaubon. I guess she had to struggle against an inner conflict: imposed reason or natural mysticism."

I'm cheating a bit because I'm just getting to that point, but I'll point out that her shame actually begins before the ceremony when she says to Aglié "I forgot my own country and my own race…"

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I'm cheating a bit because I'm just getting to that point, but I'll point out that her shame actually begins before the ceremony when she says to Aglié "I forgot my own country and my own race…"..."

Good catch, Derek. I guess the experiences at the various rituals gave her a lot of food for soul-searching.

Btw! I though I'd mention that I've started a separate 'plot' thread, to make it easier for us to track the threads of the various plotlines, but in particular the main plotline concerning Casaubon, here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

You guys are welcome to help out and add or point out omissions.

Casaubon's relationship with Amparo seems to be just like the rest of his life. He follows her to Brazil, not because he's in love (I don't think he ever said that), but just because he'd graduated and had nothing better to do. When she takes off, he's slightly unsettled by the actual experience at the umbando, but he's not at all concerned about her leaving. It reminds me of one of my own early romantic experiences. I got Dear Johned while working a few thousand kilometers from her, and while I was slightly hurt my major feelings were along the lines of "I was just waiting for that, I never understood what she saw in me anyway…." I actually found Amparo's actions less understandable—but then we aren't given any insight at all into her after the umbando.
"Are you with me?"
"To the end of time."
And then she wasn't.

Then he goes back to Italy, and seems almost unconcerned with making a living. Setting up as a "cultural investigator" seems just typical Casaubon: a profession that would have had very little demand even then, and absolutely none now that we have the Internet. Of course, he was putting bread on the table by writing theses for students, which is apparently still profitable today even with the Internet. "But nowadays all you needed was information: everybody was greedy for information…" Plus ça change!

Hmmmmm, I can quote a few instances where Casaubon mentions being in love with Amparo: Just before the end of Chapter 16, he says:
I fell in love with Amparo and stopped going to Pilade's

and then again just before the end of chapter 22, he says:
" I was short on ideals, but for that I had an alibi, because loving Amparo was like being in love with the Third World. Amparo was beautiful, Marxist, Brazilian, enthusiastic, disenchanted. She had a fellowship and splendidly mixed blood. All at the same time. "

and then at the start of Chapter 23: " I went to Brazil out of love for Amparo, I stayed out of love for the country. I never did understand how it was that Amparo, a descendant of Dutch settlers in Recife who intermarried with Indians and Sudanese blacks—with her Jamaican face and Parisian culture—had wound up with a Spanish name.

But yeah, I guess he wasn't too much in love, I suppose it depends what you mean by "in love". Obviously he was just so-so in love, not madly in love, heh.

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Setting up as a "cultural investigator" seems just typical Casaubon: a profession that would have had very little demand even then, and absolutely none now that we have the Internet. "

It is the parallel with Causabon from Middlemarch! Their working energy going into something that is defunct, our Causabon building a card-index version of an encyclopaedia when there is already a computer on Belbo's desk.

Jan-Maat wrote: "It is the parallel with Causabon from Middlemarch! Their working energy going into something that is defunct, our Causabon building a card-index version of an encyclopaedia when there is already a computer on Belbo's desk.
"

Brilliant catch! I knew that whole scenario was bothering me on some level...

Traveller wrote: "I've also thought that its probably because Brazil has such a strong occult leaning. But besides that, Eco is bringing in some politics too. He is for example, bringing in the whole question of wh..."

Puddin Pointy-Toes wrote: "I'd assumed he just liked Brazil. One can sometimes have a passion for a country not their own, and what better way to express it than to set a story there?

I haven't read in a while, so I'll n..."

Once again Traveler you enlighten !

Ya know there was a GoodRead discussion group on F.P.
O this must have been about 10 years ago.
Unfortunately that discussion doesn't seem to exist anymore on Good Reads.
I guess they delete old archives?
A real shame if that the case!

Anyway in that discussion I asked the meaning of
¡No Pasarán!
No one knew & I never did get an answer.
Until NOW!

I too wondered why Brazil?
I still have my old files
If I can only remember the password?
Maybe it'll something simple like NO.
Ha Ha

I'm trying to read all the posts.
In my quick perusal- there is so much good discussion.
I truly regret that I wasn't an active participant.

Ed, about ¡No Pasarán! (They shall not pass) : it was used before that actually, Wikipedia says in World War I, but I have a memory scratching at the back of my mind that it might even have been before that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_sha...

Of course, copying the famous phrase, Gandalf also said it in the film version of Lord of the Rings, ha ha.

Traveller wrote: "Of course, copying the famous phrase, Gandalf also said it in the film version of Lord of the Rings, ha ha."

No, no! Gandalf said it first! Tolkien said The Lord of the Rings was history :-)

Ya know... I've always heard there was a connection between
Bilbo & Belbo.
That connection was something I read somewhere-long ago
Unfortunately, I'm really ignorant of the Tolkien's work.

Is there a character similarity between Bilbo & Belbo?
I mean... does Bilbo come off as skeptical & longing for his moment?

Thanks
ED

Okay, you win! Gandalf lived long ago, so it must have been him. :)

Ed, no, I think we are mainly kidding.

Although, they both went on a quest, now you mention it...

I'm glad were back !
Let the Pendulum
swing! Ha Ha

Hi Ed, still reading, or are you done - oh, I see you gave it 5 stars?

well I've read F.P at least 8 times.
I’m shooting for 36 reads!
Ha Ha

I'm not the one to be determine if a novel is a classic. But I consider it to rate like a Finnegan Wake. Sort of obscure but necessary in a literary sense. I enjoy re-reading it. Always get a new perspective from it.

Beyond that I’m not sure why this novel draws me? But I really like Eco writings and his other novels. One of the fascination is that I have family heritage from the Piedmont area. So that peaks my interest.

Anyway I find it thought provoking, cleverly funny, historically insightful and full of hard truths.

You did a really fine job on the thread and added some great stuff, Traveller
Obviously you like the novel.

Do you think it’ll be read & relevant 120 years from now?

Ed wrote: "well I've read F.P at least 8 times.
I’m shooting for 36 reads!
Ha Ha

I'm not the one to be determine if a novel is a classic. But I consider it to rate like a Finnegan Wake. Sort of obscure bu..."

Oh wow, you're being serious? So many times? ..and here I felt tired after reading it only once! :D

I am a fan of Umberto Eco though; - of his work in general, including his scholarly works on semiotics and aesthetics. I think he has an amazing ability to draw together threads from his obviously vast knowledge of human history and culture.

The first book of his that I had read, was The Name of the Rose which I really enjoyed very much.
Have you read any other works by Eco?

Sure, I think the novel will still be read and relevant 120 years from now, because there is a timelessness in many of the things that Eco is saying in it about humanity.

Yep re-reading F.P more than twice may be an obsession.

I just wanted to assure myself that I wasn’t missing some vital connection?

Mostly was Casaubon setup?

Or was he manipulating the whole tragic-comic plan?

Then other questions got raised

What happened in Ardenti room?
Was that an obvious set-up to involve Belbo?

What role does the inspector play?
And this Salon character. Shadowy

Yes, the book took more than a couple readings
and I’m still not convinced of anything certain….

big grin

Ed, if someone else might still want to read the book and do this discussion as they go along, we would be putting out spoilers for them if we discuss the ending in this thread, so why don't we rather do that in this thread, please? (Just follow the link)
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I believe the time in Brazil is also a nod to a literal pendulum. Geographically, Casaubon leaves Milan and his theorizing with Belbo and Diotallevi to travel far away from it all. But his pendulum ends up swinging right back into the occult, then back home.

Ah, interesting. Hadn't thought of that! Thanks for that, Kellyj.
Had you heard that Eco passed away? I still feel pretty devastated by the news... :(