James Joyce Reading Group discussion

Hello, Joyce discussion group. This is my first time reading "Ulysses". I have previously read Joyce's earlier masterpiece "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man", which I found excellent. "Ulysses" strikes me even more profoundly. I am now finished with the first two episodes "Telemachus" and "Nestor". There are several things that strike me about these chapters:
1. The breadth of knowledge Joyce is able to pull from, Joyce has a wide vocabulary of references to choose from.
2. The rawness of Joyce's portrayal of how we think and of his home country.
3. How well thought out each episode is.
4. His ability to revert from inner thoughts to outer dialogue with ease. (I suppose it has a lot to do with Joyce's whole message about perspective).

-What do you guys like most about Ulysses? Particularly the first two episodes.

Congratulations on getting through 1 & 2. Now chapter three is where the trouble begins. Probably 50% of people who don't finish stop in chapter 3. First sentence gives you a clue of the difficulty. Don't stop and finish the greatest novel ever and then wait about 6 months and read it again.

Yeah, I am halfway through Chapter 3 and I am having a difficult time picking up the book again. With the help of some Internet tools and previous knowledge, I am able to comprehend a lot of his meaning here though: the chapter is dedicated to an interior monologue in Stephen's head as he thinks about just about everything in his prior life and imagines certain scenarios and what not. Even though it is nearly incomprehensible, Joyce does a good job here of showing the train of thought, one thought leads into another through obscure associations. Well, anyways, better go barrel through it!

Some more hints. Chapters 3,10 and 14 are very difficult and THEN there is 15 & 18. All the others are "easy" But it is worth the effort. Recommend you read each chapter, then read Blamires "the New Bloomsday Book, then re-read the chapter. Also, if you want a line by line guide to the thousands of allusions and references, I recommend the exhaustive Ulysses Annotated by Don Gifford. Have fun!

Finished Chapter Three after two days of reading, then re-reading certain parts. Though it is perhaps one of the most difficult things I have ever read, it is also the best part of the book so far. We get placed into the heart of Stephen's mind and we see the world through Stephen's eyes. Very interesting chapter, I must say. Started Chapter 4, which is much easier, a little bit of a break. But I haven't been defeated yet.

I am also reading this book these days, but it's Chinese edition. about half finished. I think there maybe something missing after translated. But. I am still enjoy with this book.

I just finished Chapter Six, after Leopold attended the funeral with Mr. Dedalus and the others. I am starting to see the Homeric parodies such as the flower motif in Episode Five and its relation to the lotuses in "The Odyssey". Loved how Joyce uses motifs, such as flowers in Episode Five and death in Episode Six. I briefly begun Episode Seven, this one seems the most experimental yet, done in newspaper style. Fascinating.

Weilu wrote: "I am also reading this book these days, but it's Chinese edition. about half finished. I think there maybe something missing after translated. But. I am still enjoy with this book."

I wish you good luck! I am interested in know how well the humor in the book comes out in the Chinese.

Finished Ulysses for the first time yesterday, and it certainly won't be the last time I read it. I'd love to read Ulysses Annotated sometime. What an incredible, earth-shattering book. It's one of those rare achievements that can produce the most exquisite awe.

Weilu wrote: "I am also reading this book these days, but it's Chinese edition. about half finished. I think there maybe something missing after translated. But. I am still enjoy with this book."

i remember when it was translated into chinese a few years ago - maybe 10 years ago by now. it's mind-bending to think of the book in another language. wish i could sit down with someone reading it in chinese and talk about the differences, not that i would be able to comment on how certain idiomatic things read in another language.

Del wrote: "Yeah, I am halfway through Chapter 3 and I am having a difficult time picking up the book again. With the help of some Internet tools and previous knowledge, I am able to comprehend a lot of his me..."

for the best, compressed and easy to read study of ULYSSES, or anything by joyce, i highly recommend anthony burgess' book RE:JOYCE ...

episode three is a classic philosophical debate on the nature of perception and reality ... it starts with that query about "if i can see it, does it exist?" and stephen wanders a bit with his eyes closed, wondering if the world continues without his perception. a fitting query for someone as self-centered as young dedalus ... as others have said, don't let the difficulty get in the way of enjoying this - read what you can and comprehend what comes ... it's not a book that any (conceivable) human being can fully understand in one reading.

i tried to read it when i was about 20 years old, and threw the thing against the wall and began a long journey of studying, preparing myself to be able to read it. i've probably read it five times at this point, and some episodes i've read as many as 20 (or more) times. the various studies help, for sure, but i think the first time, just read the thing and deal with it on your own and know that if you truly want to understand this thing on any kind of comprehensive level, it's going to take years and lots of returns. that's the kind of writing joyce produced in his mature work, literature that was meant to puzzle for decades.

but, as burgess puts it, joyce's big ideas are often expressed in "big round dublin terms" ... there is a lot of pure fun and every day life teeming throughout the text.

enjoy - and feel free to pose questions ... sounds like there are a lot of seasoned ULYSSES readers here that would enjoy responding.

I have some new comments on the world's greatest book. In addition to Gifford annotated - pick up Hart and Hayman's Ulysses an essay on each chapter of Ulysses. About half of them are truly revolutionary. Also Kenner and Blamires are good. Don't bother with the most famous commentary Gilbert - not worth the effort.

Read Ulysses at least once a year and you will continue to have ah ah moments as later chapters illuminate earlier ones.

Thank you for that information, Fred- will check out the Hart & Hayman. I agree with your other suggestions.

the essay on the Calypso chapter is radically different from anything i have ever seen written in all my reading about Ulysses.

I have a ? for all you Ulysses fans. If the Odyssey contains 24 episodes, why did Joyce only make it 18 in Ulysses? Could there be some algebraic connection between 18 & 24 or what else does anybody think? I have never heard this addressed before.

Fred wrote: "I have a ? for all you Ulysses fans. If the Odyssey contains 24 episodes, why did Joyce only make it 18 in Ulysses? Could there be some algebraic connection between 18 & 24 or what else does anyb..."
I cannot explain that difference in episode count. But you may want to look at the Linati and the Gorman-Gilbert Schemas as presented in the appendix of Ellmann's "Ulysses on the Liffey." This appendix identifies 2 different versions of what Joyce called his "summary-key-skeleton-schema" for explaining the "enormous complexity of my damned monster-novel." It identifies specific episodes from the Odyssey and how they are integrated into Ulysses. I think the short answer to your question is probably Joyce's artistic license to condense and expand upon many sources (not just the Odyssey). This type of artistic license is quite common, for example in Shakespeare's adaptations of Holinshed's Chronicles.

Thx

Anybody know of any interesting critical work on the relationship of Finnegans Wake to the Mahābhārata and the Gita?

I was just reading a book on the history of the Bhagavad Gita and I was stunned to learn that the passage where Krishna reveals his divine nature and exposes him to the unendurable bare divinity, where he says, "I am become Time, the destroyer of worlds" is referenced as "11.32"--chapter 11 verse 32.

In Finnegans Wake the number 1132 is symbolic of redemption, resurrection, rising and recorso (11) and of failing, falling and sinning (32).

Ed wrote: "Anybody know of any interesting critical work on the relationship of Finnegans Wake to the Mahābhārata and the Gita?..."

Also, the battle in the Gita, represents a recorso, as all are wiped out save the 5 Pandevas to begin again.

regarding the difference between chapters in THE ODYSSEY and ULYSSES - joyce was merely using the framework of homer's work to tell the story he wanted to tell, and chart a relationship between the modern and the ancient. he wasn't a slave to homer - he was quoted as saying something like this: i don't care if the skeleton blows sky high - it's modern day dublin that interests me. i'm sure i've misquoted, but you get the impression. like all great artists, he used what he needed and discarded the rest.

Phillip wrote: "regarding the difference between chapters in THE ODYSSEY and ULYSSES - joyce was merely using the framework of homer's work to tell the story he wanted to tell, and chart a relationship between the..." I would only add that Joyce was definitely after a modern day blend of the Odyssey and the Judaic and Christian mythos. Joyce thought there was every reason to recognize the ancient Greek (but pagan) heroic story with the modern religious context. All three serve as excellent cultural models for the life that the modern man must strive to achieve.

Fred wrote: "Some more hints. Chapters 3,10 and 14 are very difficult and THEN there is 15 & 18. All the others are "easy" But it is worth the effort. Recommend you read each chapter, then read Blamires "the Ne..."
I agree with your difficulty rating for 3 and 14, but I don't see it in 10
unless you meant 9 (the Library) anything with Stephen in it is hard.
Don't agree about Blamire; do agree on Gifford.

Fred wrote: "I have some new comments on the world's greatest book. In addition to Gifford annotated - pick up Hart and Hayman's Ulysses an essay on each chapter of Ulysses. About half of them are truly revolut..."
The only worthwhile essay in Hart & Hayman is Prof. Kellogg's. The rest are balderdash! (One person's opinion).

Now I am re-reading.... this discussion one of my questions is answered. Fred suggests to first 'just' read the book, then take Blamires (some suggest another book) and read Ulysses chapterwise again.

I'm very much inclined to take secondary literature at once to give me a clue of what I'm reading, but maybe the fresh way might be better... Thanks Fred (and other commenters)

Several comments. First of all after re-reading the Hart & Hayman essays I agree with Mark. 90% are worthless at best. Still think the best way to read U. is to scan Blamires; read the chapter; scan Giffords allusions and re-read the chapter. some of the chapters that have breaks like Aeolus and Circe and Ithaca you can read a section of U; read gifford's notes and you don't get bogged down. Just completed my 4th complete reading of U - which means with doubling down on the chapters I have read it 8 times and I am ready for me. BTW, found a great long established org. James Joyce Quarterly. Subscriptions are about $15 a year or so. They also have a free FB group to join JJQ.
One minor issue I would pick with Mark if I understood him correctly - I think the fight over versions if much ado about nothing. I have read them both and other than mother vs nother died to day - I don't see the big deal. I think it was just a way for the literary critics to sell some more books and articles. Love me some Joyce.

Fred wrote: "Several comments. First of all after re-reading the Hart & Hayman essays I agree with Mark. 90% are worthless at best. Still think the best way to read U. is to scan Blamires; read the chapter; sca..."
Thanks for responding.
I don't like the Blamire because for me he takes out all the "sparkle"
you find in the real thing. I also don't like some of his conjectures, like, Buck Mulligan having a tail!
I don't like the Gabler because of the Jason Kidd confrontation, but mostly, I hate the non-handset typeset: it makes the text ugly
and un-appealing to a reader.

Can't quarrel though I like reading the penguin modern classics version mainly cause that is were all my extensive notes and comments written. Have had it rebound and as a hardback it is a little difficult to read as the columns can get pretty close to the binding. Poor job on the re-binding but I just finished it again so it is ok.. Blamires is a little bland - he is quite a strong Christian don't know if that plays are not.

Fred wrote: "Can't quarrel though I like reading the penguin modern classics version mainly cause that is were all my extensive notes and comments written. Have had it rebound and as a hardback it is a little d..."
My favorite Joyce book is Stanley Sultan's 1964 "classic" THE ARGUMENT OF ULYSSES. (I am interested in Derek Attridge, but have not read much of his work).

Del wrote: "Hello, Joyce discussion group. This is my first time reading "Ulysses". I have previously read Joyce's earlier masterpiece "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man", which I found excellent. "Ulyss..."
I love the ambiguity of the "Clive Kempthorpe" scene: what or whose voice is narrating?
I love the question: "What was the end of Pyrrhus?"
I love the phrase from Yeats' poem: "love's bitter mystery".
I like the vividness and intimacy of the story telling.

Ed wrote: "Anybody know of any interesting critical work on the relationship of Finnegans Wake to the Mahābhārata and the Gita?

I was just reading a book on the history of the Bhagavad Gita and I was stunned..."
Thank you, Ed! That's very interesting about 1132! - )

Hello,

I joined the group this morning, but it appears I am a year too late. I'm sorry to see the group has gone dormant. In response to the pandemic I had to convert a face to face group for first time readers into an online format. The result was not a summary or footnotes, rather I try to bring together comments from the best criticism to help the first time reader make sense this great book (themes, symbols, and some criticism). If there is any interest in this you might take a look at www.jamesjoycereadingcircle.com.

Happy Bloomsday, 2020. In spite of it all.

Best,

Don

thanks, don. i admit i don't show up here so much - i put a lot of energy into getting this group up and going, but i'm a musician and composer, and even now, with very little in the way of public performances, i'm eternally busy practicing and composing and sorting out recordings.

that said, i always enjoy dropping in and seeing what folks are up to in the way of discussing joyce's writing, which once, admittedly, meant more to me than it does today ... i think, after paying close attention and tireless scrutinizing of the various books for more than 20 years, i just wanted to move on. turns out there are other writers!