Zombies! discussion

this is a placeholder till the moderator starts posting.

We need a moderator for a 30-page book? :)

I thought we were going to read the whole book - isn't it a serialized book in 5 parts?

Sounds reasonable. I have parts 1 and 2. I should do a KLL on part 3 now, so I can do a KLL on part 4 in January.

Ironically, the author will get more compensation for the KLL than he would for the royalty on the book sale -- $2+ vs $0.30.

I believe the intent was to read all 5 parts. That is what was nominated.

Hi there everyone.

First of all it feels a bit awkward to moderate a group read on your own book. I will do my best to surpass this!

Secondly, thanks to everyone who voted my book and of course all those who participated to the poll.

Yes, the group read I was suggesting refered to the first arc of the series : https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2... which consists of five episodes when the last one is the length of two episodes.

So the good news is this seems to be very easy to split into 3 parts:

Part 1: Episodes 1,2
Part 2: Episodes 3,4
Part 3: Episode 5

I am sincerely more than happy to send copies to anyone that does not want to invest money in a new series - it's perfectly understandable.

As a bonus, I believe two more episodes will be released by mid January and those who have finished the former five can proceed to the new ones.

As to dates, I look forward to hearing suggestions. I do feel nervous having such a real interaction with readers!

Hey Dave - don't worry we don't bite :) It'll be a fun read, as long as we all engage with honesty and respect. We get a little passionate about our undead, you know.

I'm a pretty fast reader, so I would recommend setting a pace of two weeks for the entire 5 parts. That should be more than enough time for each of the episodes, if they average around 30 pages each. And perhaps allow others to quickly get caught up and jump in if they wish to do so.

Mod note: The previous comment has been deleted. It has been posted in two locations including the BOTM format discussion where it is more appropriate.

I am thinking about the dates... Maybe something like this would work:

Part 1: January 5-9
Part 2: January 10-14
Part 3: January 15-19

If by chance you do like this I am willing to giveaway (pm me and i'll email them) more content that will be live till then (two more episodes). That way those who finish it fast can go on.

I can post questions soon, though I would love if someone could help in that (it does feel awkward to answer questions about your book).

Hi Michael,
The dates are there so we don't reveal any spoilers for people who haven't read as far as the rest. So discussion on part 2 won't start until January 10 or thereabouts. We could always ask Mike to push the dates back a little...

"Malevil" is a classic and would probably make a great Buddy Read on this site - I'm sure there would be takers!

Hello Michael,

There is no full closure but something does end. Since you've watched WD too you can expect the amount of closure the first half finale of the fourth season has given you. If that's ok with you, I would be happy if you would participate.

If most of you agree I can push the read two days behind, though I doubt you'll have trouble finishing part one in time. This arc is fast-paced and has some constant action in it, its purpose being to introduce you smoothly into the main theme.

so who all is reading this besides myself?

I'm confused (not unusual ;)
On Amazon I see parts 1-5 listed and then something that says Arc one. Is that all parts or something different?

Yes that is all 5 parts. You can send me a pm with an e-mail and I will send you the pdf (or epub, or other format).

I'm in!

sounds fun I'm in too!

Thanks Dave - that's okay I'll buy it. Do we have a reading schedule yet or are we going loosey goosey?

Updated reading schedule:

Part 1: till Jan 10
Part 2: 11-15
Part 3: 16-20

Are there going to be questions or are we free to just prattle out our reviews about part 1 after the 10th?

I am gonna post some questions - I guess i'll post them 9 to 10 january if anyone hasn't read part 1 till then avoid them.

These are some questions for part one (episodes 1,2). They contain spoilers, whoever wants to avoid them should ignore this post for now:

1) In the beginning John is running away from his zombie dad - a seemingly normal survivor with a family. Why is his dad wearing a suit and a tie?

2) You and a couple of friends are in Raymond Milk’s house. Someone knocks and says he will join forces with you and he won’t be a burden at all. You don’t like his face, but he is with a middle-aged woman who seems ok. Do you react like Jax or like Bill? Or do you become suspicious?

3) Luanne’s act cannot be described as noble, but did Sam already betray Luanne? Is her act justifiable in any way?

4) What about the way some women are treated? Alice, Teresa, Luanne, what is the difference between them accepting similar fates, by men who exploit their “power” in order to cover their needs. Is there a difference to the men exploiting those women too?

5) Alec seems to be the leader of a military fort. How could a former programmer find himself to be in charge of a large group of people? Luck? Circumstances? Did he prove himself somehow? (This is gonna be answered in the next arc).

6) Are Michael’s not-so-subtle remarks about Alec’s leadership in any way legit? Should it be a stronger, more military-oriented, or at least more “savage” guy leading? Or are Alec’s traits more important? Will they be able to resolve their differences or will this blow on their hands later on?

7) Zombies storm inside the flat, then Derek decides to buy the group more time in order for them to escape. They reach the roof to escape, but for them to manage and jump across to the next building requires time. Theo suggests closing the door and leaving Derek behind. Was that a good call? Who crossed the line - Theo by pulling the gun or John by not complying to a reasonable order? Could the end result have been avoided somehow?

8) John didn’t seem too affected by the fact he killed someone. Why was that?

9) Chris Way had been waiting for his dad for a long time. When the strong girl that saved him proposes he leaves with her, he is reluctant to do so. Did Chris make the right choice?

10) Was Alec’s decision of sending most of his strong soldiers against an enemy they know little about unwise, or was it necessary that he somehow responded to a menace in California, since he is establishing himself as a leader? How do you think Fred, Michael, Sam, Tim and the rest do?

11) Any characters you care about or like, or any notable quote. Whatever else comes to mind.

1) In the beginning John is running away from his zombie dad - a seemingly normal survivor with a family. Why is his dad wearing a suit and a tie?

exactly. why was he? i don't know and i think this is a good point to make for what i have to say.

i didn't even notice the tie, or any other descriptions. the world didn't feel built and the characters tended to blur together.

there is not enough description at all, which made it hard to mentally slip into the world you created. there was no emotional attachment to any of the characters involved.

for example, john running away from his dad. that could have been a powerful emotional tug if, lets say, you had a few paragraphs describing some father-son bonding thing they did BEFORE the outbreak. then flash forward to the manic dad scene. that would have been powerful and would help establish some form of emotional connection. hell, i didn't even know the dad's name. why should i care if he's a zombie?

things came off as cheesy. the cop's one-liner "Yep, and he better stay dead". the 'sex scene' that started right on chapter 2. the encampment. the dialogue.

i could go on but really it just needs a lot of work.

i have no clue how the zombie outbreak started (which annoys me) and i find it silly that the cops are still driving around. if the electricity doesn’t work anymore, then the gas pumps don't work. just saying.

the devil is in the details and, in this case, the details were either lacking or non-existent.

editing issues were everywhere (some were so bad that i had to stop and reread what i just read), the dialogue was stale and didn't sound the way real people would talk, and the people felt very flat.

i'm not trying to be an ass, but i just wanted to point out these issues so you can become a better writer.

i did not enjoy the first section, bro. it was literally painful to get through. Flush out your characters, add some descriptions of their surroundings, and cut-out the tedious sex nonsense. The sex scenes came across as juvenile.

Okay, so I must confess I don't like the Q & A, I like to shoot from the hip and go with my thoughts. And I had to re-review the first two episodes to get my thoughts in order (not that it helped much). But I'll try to follow linear script with the numbers.
1) Why is his dad wearing a suit and a tie? Because the clown suits were all taken?  I would think that that happened to be what the dad was wearing at the time the zompoc erupted, but there could be deeper meaning here. So hard to tell, because as Yammy stated, the writing style is very stilted and so it’s difficult to get a real sense of the characters and the story. Johnny is quicko-presto rescued by middle aged guy in a police outfit, and next thing you know, it’s Boys Riding in Cars. And Johnny thinks, “they survived a month.” Is he referencing himself and the cop having now survived a month, or his family and then the coke-can death episode? Because if it’s his family that survived a month, then, dude, what the hell is Dad doing wearing a suit and tie one month into the ZA? Scavenging for supplies in your 2-for-1 Joseph A. Bank suit is not too smart, dude.

2) You and a couple of friends are in Raymond Milk’s house. Someone knocks and says he will join forces with you and he won’t be a burden at all. You don’t like his face, but he is with a middle-aged woman who seems ok. Do you react like Jax or like Bill? Or do you become suspicious?
So again, hard to answer the question here, as the dialogue exchanged between Mr. Ponytail and Jax and Bill was pretty juvenile and painful to read. No one really talks like that, at least in my experience, so it’s hard to really relate to which group of people had the better argument, you know? I’d like to think, considering Jax and Bill’s complete lack of critical thinking skills, that they probably were lucky they got the quick death – a shot to the head, etc., rather than eventually becoming zombie munchies.

3) Luanne’s act cannot be described as noble, but did Sam already betray Luanne? Is her act justifiable in any way?
4) What about the way some women are treated? Alice, Teresa, Luanne, what is the difference between them accepting similar fates, by men who exploit their “power” in order to cover their needs. Is there a difference to the men exploiting those women too?
So, what is going on with the women in this book? It seems that they are either portrayed as the saint or the sinner, but no in-between, no shades of gray where most people reside. Again, hard to tell about character depth and motivations and my ability to relate to them as real characters, due to writing style – broken record here, really.

5) Alec seems to be the leader of a military fort. How could a former programmer find himself to be in charge of a large group of people? Luck? Circumstances? Did he prove himself somehow? (This is gonna be answered in the next arc).
Uhhh…good question. There needs to be more story told here in order to fully answer the question. Again, goes to writing and world-building. As a reader, I don’t really know Alec more than 4 letters on a piece of paper or screen. As for the quality of his leadership skills posited in the question below, again, this is really hard to answer. I don’t know if Alec is a stereotyped computer geek with a pot belly physique and a sharp mental strategy acuity honed from years of World of Warcraft, or if he’s ex-SEAL who also likes to dabble in code. Again, world building. Give me as a reader some meat in which to sink my teeth.

6) Alec’s leadership…

7) Zombies storm inside the flat…
So, I want to know, when the zombies stormed the flat, how did two zombies get upstairs and were looking down at the humans?

8) John didn’t seem too affected by the fact he killed someone. Why was that?
I would think that watching your family turn into zombies, living in a world where most everyone around you is dead or will die soon, sort of desensitizes you to death. Just saying. (Of course, you could go the opposite way and become hypersensitive, turn into a Jesus freak. Now that might have been fun..  )

For my overall comments so far, I do have to agree with Yammy regarding the sex scenes.
‘Tramp, tramp, hoe stamp’ is the feel I got from just about every female in the book, except the pregnant woman, who may have immaculately conceived (hyperbole on my part jk). Any author issues going on here? Gotta ask….

1) In the beginning John is running away from his zombie dad - a seemingly normal survivor with a family. Why is his dad wearing a suit and a tie?

I just assumed he was bitten early and this was his work attire. Other option I suppose is that he was attending a funeral or had been himself prepared for burial when he turned.

2) You and a couple of friends are in Raymond Milk’s house. Someone knocks and says he will join forces with you and he won’t be a burden at all. You don’t like his face, but he is with a middle-aged woman who seems ok. Do you react like Jax or like Bill? Or do you become suspicious?

I would be keeping a very quiet low profile and would have tried to give people no reason to knock, or if they did I wouldn't answer, and if they started trying to break in I would go with my instinct. If I didn't like the guy I would run them both off. Err on the side of extreme caution I guess.

3) Luanne’s act cannot be described as noble, but did Sam already betray Luanne? Is her act justifiable in any way?

I didn't think Sam betrayed her, she's just awful and I hope she dies soon.


4) What about the way some women are treated? Alice, Teresa, Luanne, what is the difference between them accepting similar fates, by men who exploit their “power” in order to cover their needs. Is there a difference to the men exploiting those women too?

Gotta be honest, I hate this whole story line. It's insulting to men to assume they would all go rapey five minutes into the apocalypse. The female characters are just bad bad bad and I don't know any women who would behave that way. This rapey theme is very common in this genre and frankly I'm sick of it. Sure, I suppose there would be some of that, but I'm tired of writers who pound it to death (pun intended). The excuse is always "but that would happen"! Yeah well there would also be a lot of sensitive guy parts being ripped off and eaten by zombies, let's face it thems good eats in zombie world, but do you guys really want it described and used as a main theme in every book you read? At a certain point it just becomes "oh here we go again with the rapey rapey of all the women. What would I do if that and all it's cringeworthy descriptions were left out?"

5) Alec seems to be the leader of a military fort. How could a former programmer find himself to be in charge of a large group of people? Luck? Circumstances? Did he prove himself somehow? (This is gonna be answered in the next arc).

I actually don't know the answer. It seemed unlikely when I read it.

6) Are Michael’s not-so-subtle remarks about Alec’s leadership in any way legit? Should it be a stronger, more military-oriented, or at least more “savage” guy leading? Or are Alec’s traits more important? Will they be able to resolve their differences or will this blow on their hands later on?

So far Alec doesn't seem to know what he's doing at all. I think the smart way to go would be put the military guys in charge of securing the facility, foraging etc, and have some civilian leadership organizing food, chores, sleeping arrangements, etc. Both working together at what they do best.

7) Zombies storm inside the flat, then Derek decides to buy the group more time in order for them to escape. They reach the roof to escape, but for them to manage and jump across to the next building requires time. Theo suggests closing the door and leaving Derek behind. Was that a good call? Who crossed the line - Theo by pulling the gun or John by not complying to a reasonable order? Could the end result have been avoided somehow?

Why not just send one person back down a flight to sound the alarm if zombies are coming? That way Derek still has time to come up but the others have plenty of time to bar the door if z's are spotted first. Theo seemed to just be panicking. He was wrong, once you pull a gun on your own "team" all bets are off - you get what you get.

8) John didn’t seem too affected by the fact he killed someone. Why was that?

Again, don't know. Maybe he hasn't had time to process it yet?


9) Chris Way had been waiting for his dad for a long time. When the strong girl that saved him proposes he leaves with her, he is reluctant to do so. Did Chris make the right choice?

I think he should have left with her. He was clueless and at least he had a shot buddying up with her.


10) Was Alec’s decision of sending most of his strong soldiers against an enemy they know little about unwise, or was it necessary that he somehow responded to a menace in California, since he is establishing himself as a leader? How do you think Fred, Michael, Sam, Tim and the rest do?

This question is confusing. I thought Alec was just sending them for recon, which would be fine, and they took it upon themselves to get too close - which was stupid and a very unlikely way for trained military to behave. Really the descriptions and actions of the military guys are pretty bad overall. Not very realistic military characters.


11) Any characters you care about or like, or any notable quote. Whatever else comes to mind.

I too only like John and Derek so far. I didn't have any trouble differentiating the other characters which is sometimes a problem in books with this many characters all launched together so that was good. But I agree with the others that they could use a little more fleshing out. Honestly pony tail guy is not intimidating to me - he's a little cartoony.
There is a lot of potential with that first scene of John and his Dad. I loved the visual of them moving left and right together like a father and son would do playing. It just needs a little polish and could be a great scene. Agree with Yammy that a little build up to that - something that makes us care about him - or something that makes him pitiful and heartbreaking. Someone posted a link somewhere here (yeah I know that isn't helpful but I've looked and couldn't find it) to a short movie that was about 7 minutes long, father and baby, trying to get to a safe zone. Anyway that visual of the zombie Dad, even if you didn't see him pre-zombie, was just gut wrenching because it told you everything you needed to know about how much he loved his child. I bawled.

I'm also with Yammy on the bad one liner. Bad.

I also agree with Netanella about the bad dialogue in the bad guy scenes. Particularly "you are smart and strong and I want you happy too..." or whatever. When the characters had internal dialogue it felt okay and much more natural but the external dialogue - meh.

Hope you have a thick skin! All that said I can't write at all and am too chicken to try so you're one up on me ;) And I am still interested in finding out what happens next...

Don't need descriptions? bro, i have to disagree. if i wanted to make up my own images and settings then i wouldn't need to read the book at all since it's essentialy called daydreaming by that point.

Michael wrote: "@Thia: Authors ought to have a thick skin. I didn't have any expectations of this one being polished or anything, I am reading this the way I am watching a low budget film.

As an aspiring author I..."

Michael, I agree with you on your points. It takes brass ones to put your work out there for criticism, especially with a group like ours. (And I mean that in the nicest way, of course...but we are Zombie fans - we like to bite! JK)

I'm not a published author - the best I've done is bathroom graffiti in my juvie days :). And I got crucified once by a faculty member for creating what he called an "academic club sandwich" in what I thought was a stellar essay.

I also agree we're only into the first part of three - so very hard to form a complete opinion of anything. That being said, I do believe that some of the fundamental elements of writing style - beyond mere editing for spelling, grammar, and punctuation - could be of much use here. And descriptive writing is a part of it. Otherwise, that low budget film would be like watching Shadow Puppet Theater.

All of this, of course, to make a better book and a better read. And isn't that, in the end, what we're all after - both authors and readers alike?

i can overlook the editing, and i can even ignore some story elements.

the one thing that bothers me is having no world development. paint me a pretty picture and then put your charecters in there.

"ran into the building"

"ran down a street"

"looked behind him"


are not decriptive elements, bro.

i can't even tell you what city or state this book takes place in.

also if you dont know about something, don't write about it much. for example in this book: the army elements. for example in last month's book: babies. for example in november's: action scenes.

write what you know. heres hoping that the story gets better as we move forward but like i said i didn't care for this section.

judging by your five star reviews people must love it though.

author: why was the dad wearing a suit? if you want to avoid all of the other points people made, that's fine, it's america/canada, but at least tell me why he was wearing a suit?

perhaps there was something i missed.

I have to confess - I'm really struggling through this. I'm having a little trouble keeping the characters straight, but even more - I can't figure out where they are and what they're doing when we come back to their part of the story. I keep getting confused. I'm stuck at the first part of the second section. I'm still moving, albeit slowly.

I can't see the questions on my phone app, so I'll come back later to answer them.

great discussion going on here from our botm moderator.

The moderator is more of a guide than anything else. If he doesn't return, we'll assign another one, or just fly by the seat of our collective pants.

1) In the beginning John is running away from his zombie dad - a seemingly normal survivor with a family. Why is his dad wearing a suit and a tie?

I really have no idea, and I didn't really wonder while I was reading. I'd like to know where Mom is because she doesn't seem to be mentioned at all. Pre-deceased? Divorce?

2) You and a couple of friends are in Raymond Milk’s house. Someone knocks and says he will join forces with you and he won’t be a burden at all. You don’t like his face, but he is with a middle-aged woman who seems ok. Do you react like Jax or like Bill? Or do you become suspicious?

I can't at all remember how they reacted, but I'd probably let them in to interview them and run into the same kind of problem. Although - there tends to be body language going on when people are being deceptive, unless they're really good at lying. I'm surprised that there wasn't any suspicion, since we tend to get more suspicious and cautious in a time of crisis.

3) Luanne’s act cannot be described as noble, but did Sam already betray Luanne? Is her act justifiable in any way?

This just totally confused me. There was no real reason for Luanne to expose herself at all. Why didn't they try to come up with a plan behind the scenes to try and come up with a rescue plan and retake their safe house?

4) What about the way some women are treated? Alice, Teresa, Luanne, what is the difference between them accepting similar fates, by men who exploit their “power” in order to cover their needs. Is there a difference to the men exploiting those women too?

This is tired and old and I'm just not interested in it any more. If the book was asking this question, I might be more engaged, but it seems more like filler than anything else. Very stereotyped, assumption made that women are going to just put up with it, blah blah.

5) Alec seems to be the leader of a military fort. How could a former programmer find himself to be in charge of a large group of people? Luck? Circumstances? Did he prove himself somehow? (This is gonna be answered in the next arc).

I vaguely wondered, but I'm having a really hard time connecting to any of these characters, so I don't really care. I might care a little more now that the question has been asked.

6) Are Michael’s not-so-subtle remarks about Alec’s leadership in any way legit? Should it be a stronger, more military-oriented, or at least more “savage” guy leading? Or are Alec’s traits more important? Will they be able to resolve their differences or will this blow on their hands later on?.

This is sort of an interesting question. Although I don't understand the phrase "blow on their hands". Like blow up in their faces?
I think leadership is leadership. Some people are good at it, some people aren't, some people have to develop the skills. A successful leader will have the skills and style to lead in THAT situation. An apocalypse will require a different skill set than those of a programmer, but that doesn't mean he's unfit. A group might want a father figure, or someone charismatic, or someone logical - it all depends on group dynamics and the situation.

That's as far as I've read so far. As I was saying in my previous post, I'm really stuck on this next section. I'm trying, but my head won't retain the characters, so I read a page or two and then have to flip back to try and figure out what's happening. I'll keep trying.

I will answer to the questions you posed. I am starting to believe my first question was a really bad one, because it was not in the nature a botm question should have been. It was just something of a stupid trivia that will be explained later, later on (and contains spoilers, I realize many won't care).

I hear the criticism. I plan on using that criticism to make my work better. I too know perfectly well there are issues with my work.

As for the part concerning "author issues" I assure you I've been married three years and most of my friends are women and we've always been on perfect terms.

On the general discussion:

I disagree with the "you write what you know" part and many authors agree with me. Sure, you should include parts with themes you do know, but you take away a ton of creative power if you follow that rule.

You know what no one knows about? Zombies. And another thing no one knows about (I quote Stephen King there): Killing a man, slicing him to pieces and leaving the parts in multiple places. If people wrote only about what they know, most authors out there would be psycho killers.

Of course doing some research helps. But most of the books, movies, shows out there we "consider realistic" might actually not be so, because the only things we know about that theme is what we read or watched in other books/movies.

That's not to defend myself in any way. Just general discussion.

I am not gonna argue with you, especially in story issues, but if you have a question to me as author and not botm moderator feel free to ask. As a moderator I feel I should just "moderate".

that's a hyperbole, not general discussion. when i said write about what you know i meant study up on elements that you aren't sure about, bro.

zombies, in your case, isn't the problem. zombie books are seldom about the zombies themselves.

your area of study needs to be listening to how people really talk and scene setting.

also pay closer attention to how your girl friends and other humans really talk and act.

just general advice when you work on your next book.

First off, if this wasn't a group read, I would have stopped after part 1. I'm finding the books very awkward to read. I'm constantly correcting grammar in my head, or rereading a section several times to figure out what is being described.

Yammy -- if the electricity doesn’t work anymore, then the gas pumps don't work. just saying.

Easy enough to get around if you have the right equipment. A good siphon pump that can either be used in another car's gas tank, or a larger storage tank. Some are even battery-operated. Any good survivalist would have one. And some states do require service stations to have backup generators.

Yammy -- editing issues were everywhere (some were so bad that i had to stop and reread what i just read), the dialogue was stale and didn't sound the way real people would talk, and the people felt very flat.

YES! As I said at the top, I wouldn't have gone past part 1 except for this group read.

Elizabeth -- I vaguely wondered, but I'm having a really hard time connecting to any of these characters, so I don't really care.

Ditto. When I started reading this questions, I had to remind myself who these people are that are mentioned in the questions.

Yammy -- zombie books are seldom about the zombies themselves.

Exactly. I always compare it to the Titanic. The story isn't about the iceberg. We don't even care about the iceberg. The story is about the survivors and what they do to stay alive. Or how they meet their end.

Dave -- 1) In the beginning John is running away from his zombie dad - a seemingly normal survivor with a family. Why is his dad wearing a suit and a tie?

I didn't give it a second thought. He could have just come home from work, or some event where a suit and tie were normal...

Dave -- 2) You and a couple of friends are in Raymond Milk’s house. Someone knocks and says he will join forces with you and he won’t be a burden at all. You don’t like his face, but he is with a middle-aged woman who seems ok. Do you react like Jax or like Bill? Or do you become suspicious?

I think you have to be suspicious, no matter how they look. At worst, they are doing recon for a larger force. If so, they would WANT to look like people you'd want to take in.

Dave -- 3) Luanne’s act cannot be described as noble, but did Sam already betray Luanne? Is her act justifiable in any way?

Self-survival, all the way. But the very fact that Sam was able to escape indicates both of them could have tried, from the start. But Sam was a dickhead too.

Dave -- 4) What about the way some women are treated? Alice, Teresa, Luanne, what is the difference between them accepting similar fates, by men who exploit their “power” in order to cover their needs. Is there a difference to the men exploiting those women too?

I think rape and sex slaves would be prevalent in groups like this in an apocalypse. But I don't think it would occur in groups with a number of families. But violent men will probably be the ones in charge.

Elizabeth -- assumption made that women are going to just put up with it, blah blah.

Yeah. If the hands are free, all it takes is a second. Hands around the side of the head, digging thumbs into the eyes. Lots of pain and permanent blindness.

Dave -- 5) Alec seems to be the leader of a military fort. How could a former programmer find himself to be in charge of a large group of people? Luck? Circumstances? Did he prove himself somehow? (This is gonna be answered in the next arc).

I was gonna say, that SHOULD have been explained. I would suspect luck. Probably there working late?

Dave -- 6) Are Michael’s not-so-subtle remarks about Alec’s leadership in any way legit? Should it be a stronger, more military-oriented, or at least more “savage” guy leading? Or are Alec’s traits more important? Will they be able to resolve their differences or will this blow on their hands later on?

In the long term, I think Alec's traits would be more important. The question is whether he'll survive that long as leader. I think a very strong second in command would be needed, but it would have to be someone not interested in leading, but also in making sure Alec stays in charge. But, as I said earlier, I think violent men will probably be the ones in charge.

Dave -- 7) Zombies storm inside the flat, then Derek decides to buy the group more time in order for them to escape. They reach the roof to escape, but for them to manage and jump across to the next building requires time. Theo suggests closing the door and leaving Derek behind. Was that a good call? Who crossed the line - Theo by pulling the gun or John by not complying to a reasonable order? Could the end result have been avoided somehow?

I'm on Theo's side. You wait as long as you can, but no longer. John killed Theo. Twice.

Dave -- 8) John didn’t seem too affected by the fact he killed someone. Why was that?

Shock? An acceptance of everything going to Hell?

Dave -- 9) Chris Way had been waiting for his dad for a long time. When the strong girl that saved him proposes he leaves with her, he is reluctant to do so. Did Chris make the right choice?

Chris was an idiot, and remains an idiot. Never trust a decision he makes. And I wouldn't want him guarding my back. He's more likely to get someone killed than to help or save them.

Dave -- 10) Was Alec’s decision of sending most of his strong soldiers against an enemy they know little about unwise, or was it necessary that he somehow responded to a menace in California, since he is establishing himself as a leader? How do you think Fred, Michael, Sam, Tim and the rest do?

It was reckless not to do a recon mission first. I have a feeling few will survive.

Thia -- I thought Alec was just sending them for recon, which would be fine, and they took it upon themselves to get too close - which was stupid and a very unlikely way for trained military to behave.

But a recon mission wouldn't have had that many of their camp.

Dave -- 11) Any characters you care about or like, or any notable quote. Whatever else comes to mind.

I'll go with Derek and Artemis any time. Actually, the first thing I thought about when Artemis showed up was Jango. :)

Omg. Firstly, I do not know this author in any way shape or form. I read ARC one (purchased it, not begged for a hand-out thank you very much) from Amazon and LOVED the book.

I'm a huge fan!

I just have to say that I feel he is being judged harshly and unfairely. I do not know him, but he comes off as really genuine and kind. He even gave you free copies of his book. What author does that?

I've read John's Shout countless times and, for the sake of this, post, I counted the typos. I only found three typos, people.

THREE TYPOS! What is the big deal about that? Nit-pick-pick, that's what this is.

His story is engaging, exciting, and cut out a lot of the nonsense that bogs down other books. It was like reading a movie. :)

If you didn't enjoy the story, then you just didn't read it correctly. It isn't meant to be read like the bible. Just have fun with it and it will have fun with you!

Three typos and you want to put him on a spike?

Yammmy, I can't believe that you're picking on his typos when you don't even type well.

As far as the women in the book go, I'm a female girl and I have to say that I found the portrals pretty realistic if I were to judge by my friends.

Girls DO act like that. I am one so I know. :/

People DO talk like that. I am a person, so I know...

You just don't get it or you all skimmed the book.

As far as the ONE sex scene in the book, I thought it was kindof hot.

Maybe this book is just above this group. It's a really great book, but none of you can see that. :/

I think this group's tastes in books is horrible, but that is my honest opinion.

And how dare you all not answer the questions he took time to write and post. I find that disrespectful to the author.

I just came across this thread and wanted to place my two-cents. You are being bullies to a talented author. I don't know this author in any way, but this is just mean of you all.

Well done, Dave! :) Ignore the haters! You'll always have true fans! Write more!!!!

Will John come out on top? Hang on to your hats and see! :)

Wow, Carol! I believe everyone has their own right to read and criticize a book however they feel appropriate. And this group KNOWS Zombies, believe me! I find it REALLY odd you just joined Goodreads this month and have no friends and have only rated books by the author. Looks strange, no? No one is being a bully. They are sharing their opinions. This *should* help the author in the future. No one said "Ugh...this book is unreadable. It sucks! Don't write anything else, ever!!!" Our members are offering constructive criticism and sometimes that sounds mean, but if you wanna write, you need tough skin. I started reading this after another BOTMer PMed me asking me what I thought. I, personally, didn't feel as though I was going to give up my limited reading time on something of this quality. That's just me!!! We ALL have different opinions and we should be able to share them, not get attacked for having the guts to tell an author what areas he is weak in and where he could improve. I'm sorry but your post comes off as an attack on the whole group that is taking their time to read this. YOU can answer the questions if you feel so inclined. And your statement about how this groups taste in books sucks is weird, 'cause how would you know if you've only been a member for a day??? And we HAD issues with that; that's why we had polls to determine how we could chose easier accessible and perhaps better books. Lastly, what the hell is a 'female girl'??? You referred to yourself as such. It seems almost like a line from the book...I refer to myself as a woman or a lady, not a 'woman female' or a 'lady girl.' Sorry, but you are coming off as one of the author's friends that has bruised feelings. If you've never written, you'd have NO IDEA how hard it is, and for that I give our author mad props. But the bottom line is that everyone who has been participating all month long deserves their opinions. Its a lot of time they are taking out of their lives. And not ALL members answer each question. We have a few 'regulars' that don't like to write out an essay (I love the questions, but that's just me). Still, you shouldn't personally attack people for OPINIONS! That's facist. And Yammy isn't an author, so he can write HOWEVER he wants. Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you, but I've bitten my tongue WAAAYYYY more than once on this thread, and your comment pushed me over the line. What you said is not cool. You could have just said that *you* liked the book and left it at that. Your comment about 'not reading the book right' is an insult to readers and writers everywhere. Can you tell me the 'correct' way to read a book? THAT'S something I guess no one ever taught me. Does 'the right way' mean that we have to feel the same as you about it? Cause that's ridiculous. Its called diversity. Not everyone is going to like everything. From what I read of the book itself (not much, I'll admit; I just couldn't get past the weird feel of the writing), and from what my fellow members are saying (whom I trust VERY much, having read with them many times), I don't think this is 'above them.' You are basically saying this is a masterpiece and our members are too stupid to see the genius behind it. Not cool to insult a group you JUST joined within the last day or so. Just MY two cents. Don't bother responding; I've said what I have to say and you won't change my mind. Just have some respect for a WELL established group that has worked very hard month after month on these reads.

Oh, and one more thing...your comment about us begging for free copies of the book is erroneous. I think our author offered it to one member and she respectfully said she'd just go ahead and buy it. I bought it for $3.99. And as for the other members, if it was *ever* free, I suspect most of our members probably already had it. So you kind of missed hitting the nail on that one, too.

And as I said, PLEASE don't spend your time writing out a long rebuttal to my post. I won't respond. Mostly out of respect for the group, but also because what I said is my opinion, which NO ONE will ever take from me.

~Teresa~

Off topic:

I haven't read Teresa's answer. I'll go ahead and say this and whoever wants can believe me: Someone made an account as Carol to make everyone hate me. I really, really, really believe this and I know how it sounds too.

I don't believe anyone begged for copies for Christ's sake and I was perfectly happy to send some. I don't expect anyone to answer any question he doesn't want to. I myself said some questions were bad. I could go on.

In the very small chance Carol is someone who did like the book and somehow found this topic and wanted to ""defend me"" (I don't feel I am being attacked), sorry.

This is not the appropriate post for a moderator, I apologize. I just had to say it.

Thanks, Dave. I really respect the fact that you have the stones to say that, and I'm über happy that you aren't all like 'Yay, Carol! Give it to them! How DARE they give me constructive criticism!!!' And, in my humble opinion, I think your comment is perfectly acceptable, both as an author AND a moderator. Your humility makes me *really* respect you. I think its enough to make me give your book another chance. Maybe I was being too critical in my reading before...
Thanks again for your comment!
~Teresa~

This thread is turning into Jerry Springer with Zombies, and I'm sure it's entertaining to all the other Zombie! members out there to watch this insanity.

The BOTM is about reading a book the group voted on (yes, there are winners and losers) and then discussing the book openly. It's unfortunate that there was so much drama over the January vote, and that the drama is continuing on this thread. Creating fake accounts to give fake reviews is just dishonest and wrong.

I read for pleasure. So far, this book has not been a pleasure to read. To be brutally honest, it has been painful and difficult to read. Beyond editing for grammar and punctuation, beyond mere proofreading, the first two episodes I have read are poorly written and juvenile. This is no disrespect to the author; it is my opinion as a reader.

Additionally, in my opinion as a member of what I consider a very cool GR group, the BOTM should not be used by authors to solicit constructive criticism unless they're willing to accept some heat in a public forum without taking it personally. Otherwise I might suggest taking a writing workshop, class, or even privately soliciting advise from beta readers before putting a work out there.

In truth, I have not decided if I wish to continue the book or put it in the DNF pile. Many of us have investing a lot of time and energy into keeping the BOTM going, and that is really why I am participating in this particular BOTM.

So, let's move it on, please, or close it.

as a real human male man boy i agree. i didn't attack the author, just gave him some advice. lets move on with this please. dave since none of us are 14 we don't care about making fake accounts to quote make everyone hate you. this thread is about your book not you or your ego. we don't even know you, just your book. carol.... im not going to respond to carol's juvenile post.

Teresa wrote: Oh, and one more thing...your comment about us begging for free copies of the book is erroneous. I think our author offered it to one member and she respectfully said she'd just go ahead and buy it. I bought it for $3.99.

That was me. I bought it for 3.99 too and I'm sure others did as well. And thanks for saying all the rest of that comment so I didn't have too ;)

On to part 2! >>>>>

BTW if the MOD/author doesn't want to list questions Netanella mentioned just shooting from the hip. I'm fine with that too.

Yes of course you can shoot from the hip all you like. The questions are for those that are interested in a q/a botm format, you can do as you please.

Disclaimer: Sorry if I offended anyone with the "fake to hate" """claim""". I was just pointing out I disagreed with her and I was just really worried that the remarks made by Carol would offend people here very much. Let's put this behind us and proceed.

MOD NOTE: This thread has been cleaned up a bit. Everyone is quite welcome to keep participating, but please be careful to stay respectful towards other members. Everyone is allowed to have and share their opinion about this book. That's the point of a Book Of The Month read. However, any further posts that chastise other members for their opinion will be removed.

thanks elizabeth.

1) In the beginning John is running away from his zombie dad - a seemingly normal survivor with a family. Why is his dad wearing a suit and a tie?

I think this was a methaphorical meaning for the way people currently live in our society. I think the author was hinting towatds at the fact of the "corporate zombies" of America. However, could this meaning be different as we read through the book? We shall see. :)

2) You and a couple of friends are in Raymond Milk’s house. Someone knocks and says he will join forces with you and he won’t be a burden at all. You don’t like his face, but he is with a middle-aged woman who seems ok. Do you react like Jax or like Bill? Or do you become suspicious?


I would be very suspicious. The author did an excelent job at making tension in this scene. I was biting my nails as I flicked through the pages! I was sad to see what happened but I feel like as if that was very relaistic and would really happen in real actual life.

3) Luanne’s act cannot be described as noble, but did Sam already betray Luanne? Is her act justifiable in any way?

It was justified because it was a case for the self survival. It was a dog eat cat world in the book and you need to do some things that you would not be comfortable. I think the author did a very good job flushing out these charecters.

4) What about the way some women are treated? Alice, Teresa, Luanne, what is the difference between them accepting similar fates, by men who exploit their “power” in order to cover their needs. Is there a difference to the men exploiting those women too?

As I stated before I think that people would act this way. Many of my real female friends act the way the women in the book act so I don't find it unreasonable. Men would be pigs and women would either submit or suffer under the boots of the men of the new world. Women like to be submissive. I am a female so I know. I am sorry but that is a FACT.

5) Alec seems to be the leader of a military fort. How could a former programmer find himself to be in charge of a large group of people? Luck? Circumstances? Did he prove himself somehow? (This is gonna be answered in the next arc).

I already know but I am going to pretend that which I do not know. Maybe he snuck in while things were falling apart and assumed direct control. He comes off as very bad and evil to me though and makes my guts crawl.

6) Are Michael’s not-so-subtle remarks about Alec’s leadership in any way legit? Should it be a stronger, more military-oriented, or at least more “savage” guy leading? Or are Alec’s traits more important? Will they be able to resolve their differences or will this blow on their hands later on?

Alec's traits are the best in my opinion. They will not be able to resolve their differences since it is a new world and new rules and the states get higher and higher.

7) Zombies storm inside the flat, then Derek decides to buy the group more time in order for them to escape. They reach the roof to escape, but for them to manage and jump across to the next building requires time. Theo suggests closing the door and leaving Derek behind. Was that a good call? Who crossed the line - Theo by pulling the gun or John by not complying to a reasonable order? Could the end result have been avoided somehow?

It was a good call because you have to make sacrifices in order to survive. Sorry Dereck! ;) The author had me biting my nails at this point as well. By now my nails are all pretty bitten LOL. Theo shouldn't have not understameted John and ended paying for it.

8) John didn’t seem too affected by the fact he killed someone. Why was that?

I think the mental and emotional termoil caused by seeing his parents die and all of the death he witness may have changed him. He has became more becoming harsher and darker. He has see things.

9) Chris Way had been waiting for his dad for a long time. When the strong girl that saved him proposes he leaves with her, he is reluctant to do so. Did Chris make the right choice?

Chris was in denile. He made the right choice to leave since his dad was probably DEAD by then. Plus is there a romance story brewing? I sure hope so! :) The author is good at writing steamy romance scenes so I'd like to explore that bit a little more.

10) Was Alec’s decision of sending most of his strong soldiers against an enemy they know little about unwise, or was it necessary that he somehow responded to a menace in California, since he is establishing himself as a leader? How do you think Fred, Michael, Sam, Tim and the rest do?

That was a bad decision. I do notthank that many will survive (if any). That tells me that he is not a great leader. I can't speak for the rest because I already know even though I didn't write the book since I am not the author but rather just a reader of said book. I do not know the author in any way.

11) Any characters you care about or like, or any notable quote. Whatever else comes to mind.

I like John! He drew me in from teh first page! This should be his story and all about John. :)


My other comments are that the author is very talented and I feel that he may be getting misunderstood by this group. I am not attacking the group just stating my onion so please don't erase my post again. I do not know this author in any way and but don't want you to wish ill-will to him.

your onions are safe with us, don't worry bro.

I would imagine that most of the ladies here would disagree with the submissive label, Carol. They're more of the zombie-butt-kicking type. I'm also fairly confident that the men in our group aren't going to be pigs. I would describe them more as gallant and kind.

I've often wondered why assumptions are made that people will become total selfs entered stereotypical jerks in the event of an apocalypse. That hasn't been my experience in any way during various events I've lived through or occasionally been a part of. In fact, people seem to rise to the occasion in times of widespread crisis. They are selfless and thoughtful and ready to help.