Black Coffee discussion

Here is where we will discuss Kindred.

Here are some beginning questions.

What are your thoughts of this book so far?

Is this your first time travel book?

How do you like Octavia Butler's rules for time travel in this book?

1. I absolutely LOVED this book!
2. I have read a few others, two being The Time Travelers and 11/22/63. I love the idea of time travel and this definitely won't be my last!
3. I like her vision of time travel. It was pretty unique and very easy to grasp. In The Time Traveler's Wife it was easy to get confused. Butler kept it simple.

I read this book years ago. I am going to re-read later this month so I can talk about it with you guys.. I think that at the time I read it, it was my first time travel book. Compared to others, I prefer this one. I did not care for Time travelers Wife at all, but my issue was not the method she used for time travel.

I didn't care for that book either but it did have me intrigued with time travel. So far I like Butler's concept best. Very basic.

I read it a while ago too. This was mt first travel time book. I'm enjoyed it. :-)

I read this book a long time ago. Upon retrospect, I believe, it was about 30 years or more ago. I don't remember all the details, of course, but I do recall being terrified for Dana. I am not normally a fan of time travel. but the aspect of slavery adds another dimension to this story.
(This is my first read with the group. I am not sure how much to say because I do not want to "spoil" for other readers. I am at about 20%. So, should I just stick to answering the questions or is it okay to add other comments?)

You can add other answers Trudy Just be sure to put spoiler alerts. The directions is in the html section. Or you can simply bold the word SPOILER ALERT so ppl can choose not to read past it if you would like. Thanks for participating.

Thanks, Kisha.
Kevin.15% (view spoiler)[Kevin is driving me crazy! His wife is disappearing and returning beaten and bruised and he is behaving as if it's just another day in the park. Why isn't he angry? (hide spoiler)]

Kevin is definitely my least favorite character. Especially as the story goes on. I noticed for the most part she doesn't tackle the struggles of interracial dating especially in that 70s which is actually something I loved about the book. Then I begin to wonder if his lack of empathy is her way of showing that differences between black and white. It's almost as if he is unable to understand A LOT of what Dana has sacrificed during her time travel. It's funny because in my opinion that doesnt make him racist it just shows the differences between black and white (during that time even the 70s).

kisha wrote: "Kevin is definitely my least favorite character. Especially as the story goes on. I noticed for the most part she doesn't tackle the struggles of interracial dating especially in that 70s which is..."
Great thoughts, Kisha. I, too, believe Kevin was "disconnected". Really brilliant if Ms Butler did this purposely.(So glad I'm reading this book. I don't remember what's going to happen, so it's very exciting.)LOL.

While reading the book, I keep thinking; If you find yourself in a horrible situation where the outcome is already determined, do you just let it be or fight against it anyway, while knowing in your heart the outcome is already determined? I know I would fight anyway, but what a nightmare!
Kevin.40%(view spoiler)[Did Kevin really say,"This could be a great time to live in."? The "disconnect" seems to be getting wider and, dang, he seems to getting disturbingly "comfortable". (hide spoiler)]

I always said if I could have a super power I would want it to be time travel. But how can you watch life happen and do nothing? In one passage Dana says something alone the lines of you can't tamper with history. But it seems as if she does a bit of tampering (view spoiler)[ by keeping Rufus alive (hide spoiler)]. It seems she picks and choose when to tamper.

And yes Trudy you have definitely found out why Kevin isn't my favorite character!

Just finished the book on audio & loved it.
This was my first time travel book & first Octavia Butler book.
I liked her chosen methodology for time travel, it's much better than the time travel machine concept that was used in television shows when I was a child.

I definitely agree. Time travel is something that just doesn't work in film but makes great storytelling. I'm gonna post some discussion questions tomorrow.

Discussion questions

1. It's pretty Common for time travel writers to set the common rule that, when traveling in time you can't change history. In what ways do you think Dana respected that rule and how has she broken it (if at all).

2. Dana travels in time whenever Rufus is in fear for his life and went back home whenever she was in fear for her own life. Why do you believe it to be important that she traveled in time to save him? Why did fear of death take her back home?

3. Butler made Dana and Kevin an interracial couple. It was no coincidence. Why do you think it was important for us to see thr dynamics of their relationship in this story?

kisha wrote: "Here are some beginning questions.

What are your thoughts of this book so far?

Is this your first time travel book?

How do you like Octavia Butler's rules for time travel in this book?"

"Kindred" is my family name and this book was given to me by a cousin. I really enjoyed this book but thank goodness, we can't do this in real life. It was hard for the character to know so much but could not apply that knowledge to the time she went back to.

I have read, "The Time Traveler's Wife" and while I did not like the book, I enjoyed the movie.

I also read, "Doomsday Book" by Connie Willis. It was about traveling back to the 1300 during the Black Death period. It was pretty good.

I so wish I could time Travel lol,

. But I'd have to make all the rules!

I loved Kindred and I'm not into Sci-Fi, but Octavia Butler made me want to give it a chance. I've read it several times, but I would read it again.

I totally LOVED Kindred and it was my first Sci-Fi novel of any sort and definitely my first time-travel novel. I've only read it once and I am very interested in reading Octavia E. Butler's other novels. I am guessing that since I loved this book that Ms. Butler's "time-travel rules" worked for me...as I have nothing to compare it to at this point.

This was my first time travel book and I'm not all the way sold on the genre. This however was such a well written book. I read it while teaching my daughter about Colonial America. She was saying how cool it would be to travel back in time and I had to remind her that she was a slave back then. I thought the book was a great way to remind us that we are all connected and that the subtle acts we commit now affect our children and grandchildren. And maybe I went too deep in the book. It was hard to get into at the beginning, but I am so glad I kept at it.

Yes, that is an important part of the book, realizing we are ALL connected. I think she also showed an unbiased part of slavery. She showed how complicated slavery truly is. Rufus and Dana had a very complicated relationship. They clearly lived each other because they were bound too each other through complicated circumstances. I liked the dynamic of Rufus trying to love a black person for who she us but battling everything he was taught as a child and everything that he saw through his parents. Octavia Butler did an excellent job showing how complex the dynamics of an interracial togetherness truly was.

I love time travel books and I really enjoyed the special angle taken by Octavia Butler. She takes a sci-fi technique and uses it to make us look at how drastically race dynamics can (and do) shift over the course of a few generations. But there is so much more there.

In the discussion questions, you ask about the significance of the Kevin & Dana's interracial relationship. That was actually one of my favorite parts of the book. The level of complexity that it added was pure genius in my opinion. It forces you to look at something as ugly as slavery while also sympathizing (to some extent) with a white character. It also shines light on the limitations of Kevin's ability to really relate to Dana's inner struggle.

Nea, that is exactly how I felt about their relationship. While in current times their relationship wasn't very complex the 10th century was totally different. They went back in time together but seemingly came back totally different with extremely different perspectives. Kevin mentioned a few times how he could live in that era. But his struggles would have been completely different than Dana's. He almost seemed frustrated after returning home from 5 years of the 19th century whereas Dana's stays were much shorter and she had enough.

I read this book with another group where I was the only Black member. The relationships were a focus of that group. The group either wouldn't vocalize or couldn't understand why it was important for her to have a white husband. I thought that the fact that she was in an interracial relationship factored in his decision to time travel with her. No Black man in his right mind would have chosen to go back with her. It would have been a different book entirely. Kevin's trip back kept with the theme of relationships and ties. I loved that they had such an easy, simple relationship. I think Butler's genius in the relationship is that she gave Kevin 5 years in the 19th century to give him perspective of what slavery did to the Black mind state. At the end when she is in the hospital wanting Kevin, I thought it showed how much she loved him, because she was able to have real, actual slavery trauma and still love a White man. There are people now who say I can't be with a White man because of slavery and they have no actual trauma. I thought the love story of Kevin and Dana was the most cleverly disguised side theme/plot in this book.

Great insight Arzella. And I agree that it was no mistake that Kevin spent 5 years. I also think it was no mistake how different the experience was for them. Yet and still it made them closer at the end. How someone couldn't see the importance there interracial relationship had during both times is odd because she could've made Kevin black. She didn't do that for a reason. I thought it was clever. And I agree had he been black it would've been a totally different story.

What are your thoughts of this book so far?
*I have finished reading the book. I liked Dana's character. I disliked Kevin before the he went back with her and truly appreciated him afterwards. He had 5 years in that world and that can change anyone.
Is this your first time travel book?
*Yes
How do you like Octavia Butler's rules for time travel in this book?"
*Yes I liked how her rules for time travel.

1. It's pretty Common for time travel writers to set the common rule that, when traveling in time you can't change history. In what ways do you think Dana respected that rule and how has she broken it (if at all).

I think once Dana realized the connection to where she was going and who she helping she knew she had to keep him alive long enough for her ancestor to be born.

2. Dana travels in time whenever Rufus is in fear for his life and went back home whenever she was in fear for her own life. Why do you believe it to be important that she traveled in time to save him? Why did fear of death take her back home?

If she died then that was it. There would be no one else to save Rufus from himself or others and her ancestor would not be born, hence no her in 1976.

3. Butler made Dana and Kevin an interracial couple. It was no coincidence. Why do you think it was important for us to see the dynamics of their relationship in this story?

For Dana slavery was a very different experience and perspective. Kevin was a white man seeing with his own eyes the horror of slavery. Watching his wife be treated as if she is beneath the scum of the earth. Can change a person. Like I said before I didn't like him before because he didn't really understand what Dana needed to do nor did he at first really believe she actually went anywhere. But once he spent his 5 years in the past, it gave him something. I am not sure really how to put it.

Toya, great insight. It's funny because I'm new to time travel but I like it. But in the few types of books I've read I find it to be contradictory. I'm not big on syfy because I'm such a realist. She needed to keep Rufus alive but wouldn't it all work out because she's already been born? And by keeping him alive didn't she break the time travel rule by disturbing history? Maybe i think to much lol.

This book looks great, shame Ive missed the buddy read- but i will read very soon and hopefully come back with some pov's :)

(The author's name is familiar- had it also been adapted to film?)

No it hasn't but it would be a great film.

I always enjoy a good time travel book. My first was the classic A Wrinkle In Time. But I also liked The Time Travelers Wife, Outlander and 11-22-63. I listened to Kindred as an audiobook and thoroughly loved it. I recommended it to my husband and he absolutely hated it. He simply says he would let Rufus die damn the consequences. I always wondered if the author delibrately decided that the protaganist had to be female bc, generally speaking, women are more compassionate and are not as rash as men (in general :)

As far as rules of time travel..sometimes they can be a bit complicated but the rules in this book were pretty straight forward and easy to follow.

Arzella - really enjoyed reading your comments on Kevin and Dana's love story. My hubby concurs with your statement.."no black man in his right mind..." He said something to the effect that he would keep a light on for me, but that's about it. But a black man would have been in a different position than Kevin. In five years a black man from the 1970s would have been dead. Kevin had to be white, but I enjoyed the dynamics of the interracial relationship and the experience deepened their relationship.

Maybe the author was implying as a society we have to revisit our past in order to have a true meaningful future together...or maybe she just wrote an excellent book :)

But what I do know is if I ever get a chance to time travel, i'm Michael J. Foxing it ya'll

Two....not one (or is it three)....whatever one he actually goes to the future...anyhow key word future (lol)

Funny Heidi lol. I like the message you got out of it. My fiance would hate it also. He doesn't see gray areas. Rufus is a cruel slave owner, let him die, is exactly what he would say also lol.

I have enjoyed reading through all of your comments and I agree that it was pivotal that Kevin be white. Very clever!

I had read this so long ago, that when I read it again, it felt brand new to me.

I still love the book, but this time I saw a couple of things that I didn't see the first time around.

Did Kevin explain why he just didn't make Rufus fear for his life, so that Dana would be pulled back again? A quick knife to the throat, and she would have popped right back. Could have saved him 5 years of torture I think.

Londa wrote: "I have enjoyed reading through all of your comments and I agree that it was pivotal that Kevin be white. Very clever!"

I actually assumed Kevin was African American until Butler made it clear that he was white. I thought the bit in the prologue where he has to convince the police that he didn't fuse his wife's arm into a wall was a comment on profiling.

The interracial marriage was an interesting part of the book. I'd have to read it all over again to firm up my thoughts. My first impression is that one of Butler's themes was the way that our thinking is influenced by our environment. Even a kind, supportive man like Kevin is not able to understand Dana's problems because his environment as a free white is so different from hers as a slave.