All About Books discussion

Our first fiction group read in 2014 is The Golden Notebook by the recently deceased author Doris Lessing. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about her:

     "Lessing was a novelist, poet, playwright, librettist, biographer and short story writer. Her novels include The Grass is Singing (1950), the sequence of five novels collectively called Children of Violence (1952–69), The Golden Notebook (1962), The Good Terrorist (1985), and five novels collectively known as Canopus in Argos: Archives (1979–1983).
     Lessing was awarded the 2007 Nobel Prize in Literature. In awarding the prize, the Swedish Academy described her as "that epicist of the female experience, who with scepticism, fire and visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny". Lessing was the eleventh woman and the oldest person ever to receive the Nobel Prize in Literature."

My library hold for this has come in, so if the weather allows I will be picking it up tomorrow :)

Starting it in a day or two ...

I picked it up this afternoon but won't start it for a few more days.

I am just about to start this - I hadn't realized that Lessing lived part of her life in Africa. Now I am wondering if this should be one of my Around-the-World books...

I've counted it for that Leslie! But I have to admit that I'm finding it hard to go along with it. How are you finding it? It's a bit confused, don't you think?

LauraT wrote: "I've counted it for that Leslie! But I have to admit that I'm finding it hard to go along with it. How are you finding it? It's a bit confused, don't you think?"

I have barely started but found the start of the first notebook a bit difficult. After that it was easier, more in a narrative style. I think it is interesting the way certain scenes are written as if for a play, with stage directions in square brackets. I don't know what I expected but I was surprised by all the leftist stuff (I know it was written in 1962, but still seemed surprising).

Leslie wrote: "I have barely started but found the start of the first notebook a bit difficult. After that it was easier, more in a narrative style. I think it is interesting the way certain scenes are written as if for a play, with stage directions in square brackets. I don't know what I expected but I was surprised by all the leftist stuff (I know it was
written in 1962, but still seemed surprising). "

And more she'll dwell on them! THe more I read it the less I like it though. I find it confusing this passing from "reality" to fiction (within fiction of course!). And also, even if I'm not a puritan and well grown up, I find all sexual details a bit too explicit - or at least boring: what do I care if Anna had a vaginal orgasm or a clitorid one?

Oh dear! I haven't gotten to that part, but I guess that is part of why it is considered a feminist book.

Leslie wrote: "Oh dear! I haven't gotten to that part, but I guess that is part of why it is considered a feminist book."

Think so!

I've read half of it so far. I really like it as Lessing is a very intelligent writer. As Leslie remarked to me earlier, there's a lot of politics in the book, more than I'd expected. It's interesting to me how much communism was feared back in the day.

Rowena wrote: "I've read half of it so far. I really like it as Lessing is a very intelligent writer. As Leslie remarked to me earlier, there's a lot of politics in the book, more than I'd expected. It's interest..."

One thing I find difficult to digest is that Anna keeps saying that she is going to leave the Party & how much she hates the lying but she doesn't actually leave!

Finished it yesterday and Lon the whole didn't like it so much - I had really loved her The Sweetest Dream.
Politics is "copious" but that's not a problem, for me at least. What I didn't like was the "fragmentary" structure of the novel. I understand it is looked for and wanted, but I find it too distracting.
And also this accent on her sexual life is a bit too much: I understand that that was the period when a woman had to free herself from patterns aging from century, but all this concentrating on her phisical reactions is a little boring in the end, and repetitive as well.
And Leslie don't worry (view spoiler)[she'll leave it in the end!!! (hide spoiler)]

I was reading along, finding this strangely compelling despite the fact that it isn't the type of book I generally like. But I just finished the 3rd part, which I found less interesting.

Unlike Laura, I find the form of the novel is one of its strengths - I enjoy seeing the character of Anna from the differing perspectives. I am sure that there are layers of meaning that I am missing and, sadly am not interested enough to try to get at.

I appreciate the importance of a major female author openly writing about sex and relationships with men in the early 1960s, but I am too different from Anna and Molly to really relate to them. Overall, so far, I would have to agree with Laura that this aspect is a bit too much.

However, I find the stuff about the British Communist Party fascinating. Lessing does a brilliant job portraying the dichotomy between helping 'the masses' and helping individuals.

LauraT wrote: "...What I didn't like was the "fragmentary" structure of the novel. I understand it is looked for and wanted, but I find it too distracting."

I was looking at the entry for this book on wikipedia, and it says in part:

"However, Lessing herself in the preface claimed that the most important theme in the novel is fragmentation -the mental breakdown that Anna suffers, perhaps from the compartmentalization of her life reflected in the division of the four notebooks, but also reflecting the fragmentation of society. Her relationship and attempt to draw everything together in the golden notebook at the end of the novel are both the final stage of Anna's intolerable mental breakdown, and her attempt to overcome the fragmentation and madness."

Certainly in the 4th part, where Anna is with Saul Green, her personality seems to be fracturing to match Saul's mental illness. However, it is also at this point that she stops using the 4 different notebooks. What I find a bit hard to understand is why, if she thinks that she is becoming insane, she doesn't go see Mother Sugar or some other therapist.

I finished this today. I found as I was writing my review that I became more interested in the book than I had been when I was actually reading it. I wish that more people had joined in this group read as I think some interesting discussions could have come out of it.

Still waiting for a library copy to start!

I had every intention of reading this but after some of the comments on this thread, I kind of lost interest. Is it worth it?

Katy wrote: "I had every intention of reading this but after some of the comments on this thread, I kind of lost interest. Is it worth it?"

I think that it isn't for everyone. It is well-written and easy to read, I guess what would be called post-modernist style (although I don't really know those kind of terms).

Leslie wrote: "LauraT wrote: "...What I didn't like was the "fragmentary" structure of the novel. I understand it is looked for and wanted, but I find it too distracting."

I was looking at the entry for this boo..."


I agree with you Leslie about this book. I like the differing perspectives that Anna shares and the straightforward approach about discussing sex and relationships from a female point of view. So far this book is good because it challenges the reader to explore a completely unique way of telling a story. It can be confusing and frustrating and yet enlightening and complex. This book is not an easy read and I like that it gets me thinking and challenging ideas within the novel and also learning and understanding Anna and women really in such an unique way.

I have had to pause reading because my sister is getting married and well its been stressful so I am starting up again and agree that there are lots of discussions to be had about this book. It is surprising that not a lot of people joined this group read. Well I am still reading it and hope other people give this book a chance and let us start some discussions!

also...

When choosing books to read or group reads to join I pick and choose like everyone else and cant read everything and it made me curious as to why many people chose to skip this group read? I think it is interesting to hear why people choose not to read a book. I know my reasons are sometimes because I have other books I want to read right away or the length or timing of the group read, but I am curious about what books people skip because of content. I think that would be an interesting discussion.

I wonder whether it is intimidation to be honest.

Only a fraction of the people voting for it actually ended up reading this, and personally I was quite surprised to see it win in the first place, as it seems to be one of the most popular contestants for DNF within Lessings work.

I've read it years ago, and liked it very much actually, but to me it also felt like a book that doesn't lure you in, but that you have to work for in order to enter the book, if that makes sense.
I would have quite liked to join discussion, but my memory of the book isn't the best, and I wasn't really ready for a re-read yet.

I agree with Leslie, this is definitely one that benefits from discussion, as it contains so many interesting ideas and thoughts.

I love how you said that you have to work for in order to enter the book. I completely agree, and you worded it beautifully. Have you written or published anything Jenny? You write very well, I like how you word things, it reminds me of some author that I just cant remember their name! Effortless yet intelligent. You would do really well at a blog! Sorry that was off topic!

I did not know there was a vote, I am new to the group. Interesting that so view would read what they voted for, but then again everyone loves polls.

I ran out of time with this one. Had good intentions to read it. I think The Grass is Singing being 99p on kindle after the vote was made didn't help as I think a few people are reading that instead

I've been following this thread carefully, as I would like to have read The Golden Notebook with you all. I do try to join in the monthly reads as it's a good way of reading good books that I have never previously heard of! In a way I've been surprised by a challenge somewhere to "read a book that you didn't vote for", as I'm always doing that!

Kelly - My personal reason for skipping this read was purely time! I did actually know of this, and also that it is the one book by Doris Lessing that it is recommended to read. (In my defence though, I did not vote for it as - and, again this is my personal view - I would not vote for a book and then not read it if it won!)

One of my "resolutions" this year was to slow down my reading; possibly to read fewer books but savour them better. It's difficult to do that with so much on offer, but I'm finding I prefer this way. I like to write a review too, which does take me a long time. But that clarifies my views and means I have a better chance of retaining what I read.

The ironic "sting in the tale" is that the book I did vote for The Grass is Singingcame up as a Kindle bargain, so I alerted everybody in the correct thread. Others were interested too, and a readalong next month has started up from that.

Sorry this is long, a bit off-topic and possibly sounds defensive (though it's not! Merely clarification!) Reasons of time especially in a New Year may be common to others though, and also the length or intimidation factor, as Jenny suggests. (And I too always think how beautifully you write, Jenny - especially since it is not your first language!)

So just because readers have not joined in does not mean they are not enjoying following the discussion, learning from it and making a mental note to try the book later. You would not have known this is what I am doing, for instance, if Kelly had not asked her question. I could see your disappointment, Leslie, when you posted your thought. Maybe this is some consolation; the "silent readers"?

LOL - it took me so long to write that that Heather and I cross-posted! So there's confirmation of a bit of what I said before I said it! ;)

I try and join in with as many of the group fiction reads as I can, and this is the first that I have not read. The reason is that I couldn't get hold of it at my library - I'm guessing that's because as Doris Lessing had recently died, there must have been a surge of popularity at my library. There are still 7 reservations against it. I actually voted for The Grass is Singing, which I bought on my kindle for 99p. I have a "rule" with myself, as I get a bit click happy and have so many books (both on my kindle and my bookshelves) to read already, that I will only buy a book if it is cheap on kindle or from a charity shop - otherwise from my library.

I was also surprised that The Golden Notebook won - but I would have joined in with it - although I was also rather booked up with readalongs too!

That is such a great answer so my inquiry Jean! The resolution to read fewer books but savour them better is probably more difficult than just trying to read a certain number of books quickly and keep moving to other books. I love that you shared that! Everyone is different, even people that love to read. You made amazing points and although I love book reviews, I also enjoy hearing about how people choose books or their reasoning behind the decision to read or not to read. It is not really my business I just personally find people and the way they make decisions and think fascinating.

Also, your post has inspired me to read 2666, which I have been wanting to read, slower and really take my time and savour the book. Sometimes I have so many books and things I want to do I forget to slow down and read a book differently.

I am a silent reader too sometimes and so I understand following and not commenting! I do it often! There is no right or wrong way to read, but if you would like to share more about the way you choose books I am very interested.

Kelly - yikes - just for a second there I thought I had "inspired you to read 2666 actual books"... however could I have done that?!!! LOL

But thanks for the great compliment and please do feel free to have a nosy at my bookshelves since you love reading reviews.

You know, I think your question about how we choose a book would make a great discussion - but maybe not on this thread. How about starting up another? :)

I also thought Shirley's point about libraries was a good one. I too do this.

And Leslie - yes that's exactly what I find too; the writing of a review crystallises my thoughts. In fact a book I've just read sometimes only "comes together" afterwards, when I'm writing my review and mulling it over. That's one of the really great things about being in this group - and Goodreads at all of course. :)

Jean wrote: "I also thought Shirley's point about libraries was a good one. I too do this.

And Leslie - yes that's exactly what I find too; the writing of a review crystallises my thoughts. In fact a book I've..."

Exactly! It was my missing that sort of discussion or analysis which originally made me join GoodReads to begin with! The cataloging features to me are a bonus rather than the main reason.

@Kelly - Thanks for asking such a good question! I try to participate in most of the Group Fiction and Classic reads if I can get the book through my library (which hasn't been a problem so far). Personally, I don't see the point of joining a group if I don't participate in some way, and group reads are one of the easiest ways to do that.

I suspect that the length of this book may have discouraged some people from reading it - I know that when I voted for it in the poll I had no idea it was so long (my edition was over 600 pages!). That is a big book to read in one month…

As for how I chose which readalongs to join, I don't join as many as I would like to! It is partly time - for example, I would really like to read My Cousin Rachel which Jean has been doing a readalong for but I just don't have the time right now. What of course I am really saying is that I am prioritizing my books, and choosing to make time for the books on my personal challenges...

I see your point Jean. When browsing through our list of members, I've noticed a handful of people that haven't participated in any of the discussions (yet), but were reading one of our current group-reads. To me, silent participation is fine, some are shy or feel that they don't have anything relevant to contribute at the moment, and though I am sure they have, I also understand that for some people it takes time to muster the courage and others potentially never will. With some groups it took me several months before I started really participating, with others I jumped right in.
The only thing that I find difficult in all this, is that eventhough I don't mind silent participation, a group-read really only makes sense if people are interested not only in reading, but in discussing.
If 20 people vote for the winner of a poll, of which 16 at no point had the intention to actually contribute to the discussion: that's when it becomes a problem. I then understand why some groups ask their members specifically to only vote if they intend to not only read the book, but to discuss it as well.
Last year, a group that I am a member of, which tackles what a lot of people would consider as 'unconsumable' literature (for some that may be Ulysses, for others that may be the ancient Greeks or contemporary experimental literature) almost stopped existing due to severe lack of participation. When I got the message I realized, that though I had really benefitted from the group because reading their discussions intensified my own reading of a certain book, I never actually contributed a thing. Bottom line: if I wanted that group to go on being the great group I thought it was, I'd better get out of my 'I think I am not intelligent enough or articulate enough for this' - zone, and start entering discussions. And believe me, I know every corner of this zone...

@Kelly, thank you so much for what you have said (and thank you too Jean), you have no idea what a big warm feeling it produces around the belly-button region ;) I often feel very clumpsy in expressing myself in English, so I did have the impuls to look over my shoulder to see whether there was another Jenny present. Thanks again, maybe that will actually help me shake off my insecurity next time I think about whether or not to write a review for a book that I would really like to write about. And concerning your question: I write merely for myself (in German), or - on very rare occasions - for a piece I am rehearsing. I am pretty confident though that I am a much better reader than I am a writer ;)

Jenny that is a fair point! I suppose I had assumed that there would be plenty of chatterboxes and just a few shy types. I had no evidence at all though to make that assumption.

For myself, I only stay in a group if I participate fully. I was a in group - a good one about the Classics which I may rejoin some day. But when I realised I'd been in it for several months and not made one single comment I decided to leave.

On the other hand it seems a bit draconian to force people to participate! Especially if the book selected is a bit challenging. I'm a "carrot rather than a stick" person. And to carry the donkey analogy even further, if I felt someone was pushing me then I'd dig my hooves in!

I truly think that because this group is providing such a friendly environment to chat in, that is the way forward. There must be an awful lot of readers who are not so chronically shy that they would never ever participate, because surely they can see what a benefit it is when they do! No, I think a lot of readers are on the edge and it won't be much longer before they are emboldened to join in more :)

You've shared your own experience with Ulysses or similarly regarded "difficult" Literature. Thank you for being so open - I feel that about the Philosophy thread, but you made me feel "safe" enough to swallow hard and try to join in! That's the sort of thing I mean.

And if you don't mind, I'd like to use another example from you. I noticed how you rarely wrote reviews, and you explained your reluctance to write in the English language. I wondered whyever not, you wrote one (it was fine!) You wrote another... this latest one was great!

Confidence through support is the key. This group is great on support - it has been since day one. And that enables the confidence to grow :)

Jean wrote: "On the other hand it seems a bit draconian to force people to participate! Especially if the book selected is a bit challenging. I'm a "carrot rather than a stick" person. And to carry the donkey analogy even further, if I felt someone was pushing me then I'd dig my hooves in!
"

Jean, LOL, don't get me wrong, I am all for the carrot!! I am not saying people have to participate in group reads or the discussions at all, that is entirely up to the members, I am saying the only time the carrot would end up frustrating me is if I looked at the people voting for the winner, and 70% had never bothered to discuss or read the winner they chose, but they voted because ...well it can be kind of fun to vote on polls, can't it? Which is very different from: read our group-reads regardless whether you are interested in them or not! I for one would leave such a group in a state of panic ;)

And just to be clear, this is not what happened with this group read I think, and of course there's always the possibility that you change your mind, or the book isn't available. The scenario I am talking about is a hypothetical one (for this group at least) at which point I - a believer in the carrot (you must have noticed by now that I will be riding your poor donkey to the bitter end ;)) would loose faith in the carrot temporarily.

Me too!! :D

I have seen a couple of groups where the members are required to read the group reads, and haven't touched them with a barge-pole. It's surely much better to encourage discussion, or you end up scaring people away. This is for pleasure, after all. Some groups' moderators seem to forget they are not in the work place :)

(edited because of cross-posting!... I mean that groups which "tell" you what you have to read to be allowed to stay in them scare the bejesus out of me :)

This has become a really interesting discussion! Everyone is sharing their opinion and really having a discussion! talking about participation has brought up a lot of interesting opinions and is making me even more motivated to join in discussions and ask more questions.

*gives a little cheer!* :D

Kelly wrote: "I love how you said that you have to work for in order to enter the book. I completely agree, and you worded it beautifully. Have you written or published anything Jenny? You write very well, I lik..."

Me too. But when I say such a thing of a book, I don't feel it in a positive way...

Well I had every intention of having a go at this but a copy has not turned up at the library yet despite reserving about a month ago. I've been listening to Faulks on Fiction though and he has some interesting things to say about the book which people may want to check out. Have to say though after listening to this I decided to give it a miss!

I know this is an old group read discussion, but I thought I'd post here anyway. I'm one of the people who opted for the less daunting The Grass is Singing when we were deciding which book to read by Lessing. This one seemed too long and complicated so I continued to delay it. Now I'm only 100 pages in, but I'm really enjoying it so far and remembering what a good writer Lessing is. I like the discussions about communism and the fragmentary nature of the book, but I have a lot more to read yet. I'll come back and post my thoughts when I'm finished, but at this point I have very high hopes for the rest of the book.

Pink wrote: "I know this is an old group read discussion, but I thought I'd post here anyway. I'm one of the people who opted for the less daunting The Grass is Singing when we were deciding which..."

That's good to hear, Pink. I really enjoyed The Grass is Singing too, but didn't feel inclined to read The Golden Notebook. Maybe it's worth a try at some point.

Oh how I loved this book! And this was such an interesting discussion reading through the comments, I really wish I was reading this while it was still going on :D