On Paths Unknown discussion

Let's use this thread to discuss which of Jorge Luis Borges works we're going to read when.

Traveller said: How about we start with all the Labyrinths: Selected Stories and Other Writings stories that are included in Collected Fictions, so that anyone who has either book can readily join in.

Cecily said: The Collected Fictions should be all the prose fiction, so any stories in Labyrinths ought to be in that too (though possibly not with the same name!), but I haven't checked.

The other thing is that I would suggest not starting with those in his first volume (A Universal History of Iniquity) or those in his ante-penultimate one (Brodie's Report), as they're not what one thinks of as Borgian, mostly being pretty straightforward stories of gauchos and knife-fighters, with little of the post-modern, metaphysical, mind-warping stuff that makes most of his works so impressive.

Let's discuss.

Damn! I would have sworn I had at least something of Borges in the house.

Are any of these stories available online?

YES, some of the best known and most interesting are online. Let me have a look for you...

I don't know which of these are in Labyrinths, but they're in Collected Fictions, and they're (a few of the) ones I think would make excellent discussions. YMMV.

Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius

The Library of Babel

The Aleph

Everything and Nothing

The Utopia of a Weary Man

The Circular Ruins

The Zahir

The Immortal would be good, and The Theme of The Traitor and the Hero, too, but I can't find it free online.

Thank you, Cecily! Okay, for obvious reasons, the items in the list above have my vote for a read.

Thanks for all your trouble, Cecily! Since you seem quite knowledgeable and enthusiastic about Borges, would you like to be leader/co-leader for the Borges discussion?
We can speak via PM if you like. :)

In any case, so let's start with those then. Any particular one you would recommend to read first?

They're not in order of preference, and it's not an exhaustive list. Over the weekend, I'll try to add one or two more and maybe add a one-sentence description of each.

Trav, I would be happy to lead (unless anyone else wants to - I'm sure there are others better qualified than I am), but if so, we'd have to bump it to the start of September. I'll be away on hols for the last two weeks of August: I'm not sure how much internet access I'll have, and when I do, I'll probably just be on a phone, which is not conducive to anything more than brief posts.

Cecily wrote: "Trav, I would be happy to lead (unless anyone else wants to), but if so, we'd have to bump it to the start of September. I'll be away on hols for the last two weeks of August: I'm not sure how much..."

Well, yes, I think it would be very nice to have you, especially since you have not had a "turn" in our little group to date!

But in that case, and if other members agree, maybe we should change places then with Calvino and Borges, because I have two other people who want to read Calvino and not Borges. Let me contact them and hear.

I'm always down to group read Borges, though September is more feasible for me as I am attempting to wrap up multiple summer reading books all at once.

Looks like we're going to have to move it to September, yes. That would be nice, Rand !

Don't know how much time I'll have in September—lots of time to read, since there'll be two transatlantic flights, but maybe not so much time to comment. But I'm in, whenever...

Derek, one advantage of short stories is that they may be more suited to comments that are short. Then again, with Borges, that may be less true.

Elaborating on my earlier post, here are some stories that I think would make excellent discussions. YMMV, and other suggestions (and rejections) welcome.

Most of these are in Labyrinths (I've checked a TOC online), and most are available free online,as well as in other collections, as indicated in hyperlinks below. I've also added a sentence about each.

I’m happy to accept the invitation to lead, but happy to defer to anyone who is really keen. I’m not actually very sure how to lead with short stories, rather than a novel, especially if different people read different permutations, but I’m sure we could muddle through!

Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius
Layers of fact and fiction: the nature of truth and time.
Free online
Also in
The Garden of Forking Paths and
Collected Fictions and
Labyrinths: Selected Stories and Other Writings

The Library of Babel
Paradoxes related to an infinite library.
Free online
Also in
The Garden of Forking Paths and
Collected Fictions and
Labyrinths: Selected Stories and Other Writings

The Aleph
A man obsessed with a dead woman, and a mysterious object.
Free online
Also in
The Aleph and Other Stories and
Collected Fictions

Everything and Nothing
An agonising vignette of aching emptiness, with a twist.
Free online
Also in
Dreamtigers and
Collected Fictions and
Labyrinths: Selected Stories and Other Writings

A Weary Man’s Utopia
A glimpse of the future.
Free online
Also in
The Book of Sand and Shakespeare's Memory and
Collected Fictions

The Circular Ruins
A circular story about dreaming reality.
Free online
Also in
The Garden of Forking Paths and
Collected Fictions and
Labyrinths: Selected Stories and Other Writings

The Lottery in Babylon
Disorienting paradoxes musing on fate.
Free online
Also in
The Garden of Forking Paths and
Collected Fictions and
Labyrinths: Selected Stories and Other Writings

The Zahir
Time, obsession, madness.
Free online
Also in
The Aleph and Other Storiesand
Collected Fictions and
Labyrinths: Selected Stories and Other Writings

The Immortal
What price immortality? A quest, books, time/history.
Free online
Also in
The Aleph and Other Storiesand
Collected Fictions and
Labyrinths: Selected Stories and Other Writings

The Theme of the Traitor and the Hero
Life imitating art.
In
Artificios and
Collected Fictions and
Labyrinths: Selected Stories and Other Writings

Wow! Thank you Cecily.

Thank you so much, Cecily!
That's an enormous amount of work you've done there! :O
Well, may I make a suggestion?
How about we make a thread for each of those stories you have mentioned now (I don't mind making them), and then Cecily can maybe do an introductory post, or you can create them if you have the time, Cecily, I'd just like to save you some work unless, of course, you want to make the actual threads yourself.

Then maybe Cecily, you can make two threads at a time and people can decide which stories they want to chime in on.

Or, depending on your time schedule, we can create all the threads in advance, and you can introduce them as you find the time.

Just some ideas that I'm throwing in there. Think about how it would fit in with everyone's schedules. The nice thing about short stories, is that one can read them piecemeal. We could read one a week, or one every two weeks, in any order, unless, of course, there are stories that go together as a set.

Well, the "work" was enjoyable and not too onerous, as I'm towards the end of reading and reviewing the Complete Fictions, so have the info to hand.

One discussion per story may be too many discussions, and I only listed some of my personal favourites; people may read and want to discuss other stories.

I think it may be better to group them: three or four per discussion thread. I'm not quite sure how yet (chronological makes some sense, but some are closer to each other in content than chronology), but if we're not starting till September, there's time to think about it, and I should have finished my own reviews by then.

I love Borges. He kind of brainstorms all kinds of wild fantasies without care for preconceptions or norms. He's imaginative in a raw, pure narcotic form.

Cecily wrote: "Well, the "work" was enjoyable and not too onerous, as I'm towards the end of reading and reviewing the Complete Fictions, so have the info to hand.

One discussion per story may be too many discu..."

Well, then perhaps group them per story collection. ..but if we do it like that, we'd have to co-ordinate everybody's timing of reading which story when.

That make sense at one level: there is an arc to his writing when you read it chronologically.

Even so, that would require about half a dozen discussion topics, each of which would relate to up to two dozen stories, which would need to be listed at the start. We might also need a general discussion for the links between stories in different collections.

People could read whichever stories they want, whether random ones online, from Labyrinths, the Collected Fictions, or some other way, but if the grouping of discussions doesn't match what they have, it may be confusing and off-putting.

There must be a better way, but I'm not sure what (yet).

This sounds like it would immensely complicated and an awful lot of work for the moderator(s).

Perhaps to start, Cecily could pick out the one she thinks would make for the most interesting discussion and if it generates a lot of interest, then go forward from there.

Ruth wrote: "This sounds like it would immensely complicated and an awful lot of work for the moderator(s).

Perhaps to start, Cecily could pick out the one she thinks would make for the most interesting discus..."

Yes, how about this: Cecily, you decide which ones you want to discuss and I'll fiddle with the actual logistics. That will split some of the stress in a more fair way, eh?

Thanks, Trav. I'm hoping someone else whose familiar with Borges will chip in with ideas and opinions, but if not, we'll sort it out between us.

I'm now wondering if a thematic approach might work better, though I'm not quite sure how that would manifest itself. Maybe and index topic (based on the TOC of the Collected Fictions), and beside the titles, a suggestion of the main themes, then a discussion for each of those themes (maybe four would be manageable? Time, duality, labyrinths...). There'd be some overlap, but that way, people could read what and when they liked. On the other hand that may be too directionless to work.

Cecily wrote: "I'm now wondering if a thematic approach might work better, though I'm not quite sure how that would manifest itself. Maybe and index topic (based on the TOC of the Collected Fictions), and beside ..."

That sounds like a very good idea indeed, actually.

If you tell me which ones you want to discuss, I'll help to figure out a framework and that kind of thing, and run it past you of course before we actually begin.

I'm making this your show for many reasons, amongst them, that you are capable, that you have experience with Borges and have the enthusiasm for him, and also because I am a little bit afraid that I might get very busy again and might not have the time to babysit/micromanage the discussions at the time that we actually do them; but I don't expect you to take ALL of the responsibility; I am prepared to co-work with you and help prepare the background and set the stage. You will still be the official leader of the whole thing, of course.

Okay, so if we did it thematically, let's start thinking about the themes seriously.

You mentioned time, duality, and labyrinths so far, and yes, I can see that some of them would intersect. I think the latter might be the biggest problem with this kind of approach, but I really like the way you're thinking there.

Maybe we can refine the idea a bit or expand on it by taking more variables into account in conjunction with themes.

The more I think about how to approach this, the more it feels like a Borgesian problem: a labyrinth of overlapping sets, with no obvious beginning or end...

Nevertheless, unless someone comes up with a better idea (please, someone!), I think themes may be the way to go. There are SO many stories, and I doubt all participants will want to read all of them. Doing it thematically - with suggested stories for each theme - would mean that even those who've read different stories can discuss.

I'll try to think a bit more about how to split things up.

Cecily wrote: " There are SO many stories, and I doubt all participants will want to read all of them. Doing it thematically, even those who've read different stories can discuss."

Good point.
There certainly are a lot of stories, and also a lot of overlap between collections. Thematic threads could turn out to be very enriching, since one will then start to see the general threads in Borges' oeuvre.

This way, it will even be okay if some stories overlap threads, because we can then discuss the stories in terms of the specific theme for that thread.

I can see it already: this could become a valuable Borges resource if enough people join in. ;)

I'm excited to join the reading and discussion. Thanks for this thread and your efforts, Trav and Cecily.

If I may so, I think thematic approach suits Borges experts well, but readers not very familiar with the writer might find it somewhat confusing to follow, not least because themes overlap and delineating them with a selection of stories from across his complete works might be a bit reductive.

You may use Collected Fictions as the benchmark and carry the discussions per book. Personally, and in general, I'm not a fan of chronological reading and like to go straight to an author's best works and then branch out into lesser ones if I like their best. So my suggestion would be to select a book out of Fictions, or a selection of stories (five, seven, ten stories) out of one or two books at maximum. How about starting with stories in Labyrinths? Or a selection from Labyrinths and El Aleph combined? The final selection of stories should rest with the leader of the thread.

Jibran wrote: "I'm excited to join the reading and discussion. Thanks for this thread and your efforts, Trav and Cecily.

If I may so, I think thematic approach suits Borges experts well, but readers not very fam..."

If we ditch the theme idea, I think it would instead then be a good idea to at least start with the stories that are also available online, so that people can try out Borges without the fear of making a bad investment.

...but let's hear what Cecily thinks, I guess, since she's already taken the onus.

Jibran wrote: "I'm excited to join the reading and discussion. Thanks for this thread and your efforts, Trav and Cecily.

If I may so, I think thematic approach suits Borges experts well, but readers not very fam..."

Personally, I like Jibran's idea of starting with the 'best' (although that's so subjective, and how do we decide?), as I don't see myself getting deeply involved in one theme and then another. The "so many books, so little time" argument. I would like a sampling, I think.

We can start with the "best" and still use a thematic approach, too. ;) I think Cecily and I took that for granted in the first place.

And by "best" I mean those stories that would make the best fodder for discussion.

Best works would refer to those which are most well-known or most read or most liked. We can point out to 'best works' with some agreement among prolific writers though admittedly sometimes it is difficult to single out the 'best' in a relatively small body of work which is evenly liked and appreciated. (for instance Kafka).

Trav, imho, it'd be more interesting if we let the stories suggest the themes instead of the other way round. This way readers will bring to the discussion themes and ideas gleaned from the stories than discussing the stories in a template set beforehand? I am not very clear on the thematic approach so I might be misinterpreting Cecily's proposals. You might start with a thematic discussion based on relevant (and best) stories and see how it goes. If it works, stick with it, if not, there's always the good old way :)

Jibran wrote: "Best works would refer to those which are most well-known or most read or most liked. We can point out to 'best works' with some agreement among prolific writers though admittedly sometimes it is d..."

Yes, let us just do a bit more thinking and fiddling, and I suspect you would be pleasantly surprised by the outcome.:)

I think Cecily had specific stories in mind - those that are most uniquely "Borgian" and therefore tend to play with ideas and play with your mind, which is exactly the kind of thing that we like to investigate in this group; so I think it's going to work out in the end.

I've been quiet and absent, but I've been busy.

I'm beginning to realise what a deliciously poisoned chalice this is!

I started off suggesting 7 stories, then upped it to 10, and I've now thought of 5 more that really ought to be listed (not that any of them are compulsory): Emma Zunz, Death and the Compass, Funes the Memorious, The Congress, and The Other. Almost all are available online, all are in Collected Fictions, and most are in Labyrinths (I have an updated version of my comment #14 that includes the relevant info).

Meanwhile, I've been thinking, dreaming and drawing Borgesian themes. I realised very quickly that I was making a labyrinth, but I carried on anyway. I may tidy it up and post it in the actual discussion, but for now, it just demonstrates the futility of grouping by theme. As Jibran says, they overlap too much. There's also the danger of suggestibility; it's better if people can draw their own conclusions, rather than follow mine.

So, I think we're agreed that we should have a selection of the most interesting, typical, famous... etc stories, mostly ones that are freely available. I think my fifteen largely meet those criteria, but am happy for others to add or subtract from it.

The tricky bit is how to divide the discussion. One topic for ten, let alone fifteen would be unmanageable, but ten separate ones would be just as bad.

I'll think a bit more, but I fell we're getting somewhere.

Sent you a PM.

If we don't go the thematic way, then the one thing we must definitely do, no matter what else we decide, is to have one thread per story - we have to do it that way to have our "indefinite time for posting" formula work.

It would be untenable to have as much as 8 or 9 pages per thread; but not only that, one would have to leapfrog the stories one over the other and everything will end up a terrible jumble.
So this is a non-negotiable issue for me - unless of course we go the thematic road, in which case different stories will blend into several threads at once.

We have an entire folder for Borges' stories - let's make use of that folder. ;)

As to the format of how we're going to that - Cecily, I think we should perhaps thrash some of the issues out via PM, and then post some of our ideas here once we've come up with a concrete plan or two.

What if we had one thread per story (obvious necessity to my mind) but as themes arise in the discussions (as I am sure they will, given the high-caliber of this group), we could ('we' hahahaha!) create thematic threads to discuss across stories.

Ruth wrote: "What if we had one thread per story (obvious necessity to my mind) but as themes arise in the discussions (as I am sure they will, given the high-caliber of this group), we could ('we' hahahaha!) create thematic threads to discuss across stories. "

Yes. After some personal talks with Cecily, I (we) agree that this would be a good way to go. I have been favoring the idea from the beginning that we should let members create their own threads, but with the proviso that members must please make sure first that their topic has not already been started by someone else. I will reserve the right to merge threads if duplicates arise.

Also, there are stories that are the exact same stories that have different names. I will make 2 additional "sticky" threads shortly: one "background" thread to deal with Borges and his work in general, and another one in which I will point out which stories have different names, and, I think, perhaps in the same thread, some info about which stories appear in which collection.

Ooh, it's good to have a bit of excitement building.

As Trav says, we're agreed on one topic per story (there will be no closing date for discussions), but to keep it manageable and to have focus when we kick off, we'll start with just a few, before opening out to whichever ones anyone else wants to discuss. Themes will, of course, emerge in specific stories and in general. Further details tbc - but note that the start date is September.

Thread for general Borges discussion and info posting, is here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Kenneth and Carmen, sorry, I did not mean to ignore you. Would be great to see you both on the discussion later on! :)

I was hoping GR polls allow for multiple replies, but we might be stymied by the fact that they only allow for one choice per person.

In any case, I will put up a poll soon with around 15 or 16 stories that members can choose from. The poll will run for a month and we will then start with the 5 top stories from the poll.

Poll is here: https://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/1...

Okay, so I read The Library of Babel the other night and ... Wow. Not only is it nothing like Star Trek's Babel (joke) it is just: Wow. Not sure where to start. I may have to reread it again before our discussions. And will definitely not look at hexagons the same way again.

Moving on to some of Cecily's other picks! Loving this!

Glad to hear, and looking forward to the actual discussions! ^_^

That's a good sign, Allen. If The Library of Babel is (one of) your first JLB, reading it a couple of times is a very good idea. I did that with many of them!

Wow, what an effort from you guys. I look forward to getting acquainted with JLB and discussions on his work. Thanks, Cecily for letting me know about this.

The more the merrier. :)

There's still time to vote, especially as it's close: https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...

Click to view the comments immediately below the poll, and the second one contains a one-sentence summary of those on the shortlist.

From 1st September, we'll start with the stories that have the most votes, then move down the list for the next few. And after a couple of weeks, if anyone want to start a discussion of another story, that would be great.

Ooh, I'm reading "The Circular Ruins" next since the title bears a resemblance to a significant plot point of the Southern Reach trilogy I'm also reading :)

Titles can be deceiving tho...

Allen wrote: "Ooh, I'm reading "The Circular Ruins" next since the title bears a resemblance to a significant plot point of the Southern Reach trilogy I'm also reading :)

Titles can be deceiving tho..."

Ha, ok, I'll read that one too, and we can compare notes as soon as the discussion is going. It's really really annoying that one can only vote once on GR polls. It would have been so nice if everyone could have had 2 or 3 votes, since now we're hard put to choose - I did want to read Library of Babel and Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius, but hopefully the former has enough votes by now to make it the winner, and so I voted for Circular Ruins to make it the runner-up.
(Though I was very tempted to cote for Tlön,...)

Since I also plan to read the Southern Reach sometime, it would be interesting to see if Vandermeer was referring to Borges. I guess you'd need to be careful not to give spoilers about the Vandermeer story, though, Allen...