Retro Reads discussion

Book Four, Moonrise.

Conway must die.

Misfit wrote: "Conway must die."

You made me, literally, laugh out loud! I hope the sound reached you through the ether!

Karlyne wrote: "Misfit wrote: "Conway must die."

You made me, literally, laugh out loud! I hope the sound reached you through the ether!"

I heard you :)

I was just struck by the whole idea of women and children being a serious, very serious, hindrance in a war like this. I just finished Heyer's fact-based novel, The Spanish Bride, where the heroine follows her husband from battle to battle, and things are different there. Danger, of course, but not to the degree we see here, Different time, different culture, but the same British thinking?

Karlyne wrote: "I was just struck by the whole idea of women and children being a serious, very serious, hindrance in a war like this. I just finished Heyer's fact-based novel, The Spanish Bride, where the heroi..."

Kaye really drills that home in the latter half of the book. Military behaves in a whole different manner when they have to worry about the women and children.

Misfit wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I was just struck by the whole idea of women and children being a serious, very serious, hindrance in a war like this. I just finished Heyer's fact-based novel, The Spanish Bride,..."

And it's not even as though they're going to "just" be herded into slavery or camps, either. The whole idea of this mutiny is to, once and for all, get rid of every single foreigner.

Karlyne wrote: "Misfit wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I was just struck by the whole idea of women and children being a serious, very serious, hindrance in a war like this. I just finished Heyer's fact-based novel, The ..."

*nods*

Have you read Zemindar yet? Same historical setting, although this book mainly takes place inside the residency, while SoTM is outside.

Misfit wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Misfit wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I was just struck by the whole idea of women and children being a serious, very serious, hindrance in a war like this. I just finished Heyer's fact-b..."

I haven't! I'll keep my eyes peeled for it.

You'll have to buy it used or library, no ebook yet in the US. I really like the Jane Eyre-ish heroine.

"Zemindar" can be borrowed in PDF and ePub formats from Open Library, did you know? Check it out. Here's the link: https://openlibrary.org/works/OL60953...

Misfit wrote: "You'll have to buy it used or library, no ebook yet in the US. I really like the Jane Eyre-ish heroine."

I tend to read almost everything in book form, anyway, and I love used book stores (our library is so small that almost everything has to be ordered in, so I only use it occasionally).

Misfit wrote: "Conway must die."

lol! Good one, Misfit. :D

Hana wrote: "Misfit wrote: "Conway must die."

lol! Good one, Misfit. :D"

And it was an (in)glorious death indeed :P

Karlyne wrote: "I was just struck by the whole idea of women and children being a serious, very serious, hindrance in a war like this. I just finished Heyer's fact-based novel, The Spanish Bride, where the heroi..."
Karlyne that is a very interesting observation. And funny you should mention The Spanish Bride. I was just thinking as I finished Ch. 27 that Winter's resourcefulness and courage reminded me Juana Smith. No higher praise--Juana's a favorite of mine.

Hana wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I was just struck by the whole idea of women and children being a serious, very serious, hindrance in a war like this. I just finished Heyer's fact-based novel, The Spanish Bride,..."

I think both books really give us a glimpse into the mind-set of the British army (and the Company). I kept thinking as I read this that many of the officers were arrogantly stupid, but I think it was more than that. I think the possibility that they might be wrong, that they weren't invincible, was simply, to quote The Princess Bride again, "Inconceivable!" Is that arrogance or something else?

I suspect it was a kind of cultural arrogance--the notion that the British way, the Christian way, the 'modern' way with its technological advances, were all so inherently superior that they had to prevail in the end.

Also, until the Crimean War and the Afghan Wars, Britain had not suffered a major defeat. Okay, they eventually 'won' in the Crimea, but at such a price--and Afghanistan was a total disaster.

It's interesting that several characters in the SOTM realize that Indian sepoys' awareness of those two wars had made the British position more vulnerable. The British no longer appeared invincible and that (in addition to the unequal numbers), was practically an invitation to rebellion.

Ooops. Sorry for the long post, but you do prompt the most interesting reflections, Karlyne!

Is it arrogance or ignorance? I think somewhere in this book it's mentioned that their cultures are so much older than ours, they had books and writing when in western Europe they were still living in mud huts.

Good point, Misfit! I suspect it was both. And the notion that the Indians had anything to teach the British would have been 'inconceivable' to far too many.

And Misfit, the points you and Karlyne raised about the risks of having women and children in India made me think of something else. The British women probably played a role in reinforcing the arrogance and isolation of the British officials. Once the 'memsahibs' came out, fewer of the men took native wives and mistresses and so were no longer as directly exposed to the culture.

I think the very fact that most of the British didn't realize that the East was "civilized" gave rise to that horrible attitude. It was ignorance that grew into arrogance and then into a horrible type of paternalism (although is any kind of paternalism good?) that couldn't be seen for anything but as the betterment of those they were ruling. The ones who weren't in it just for greed truly believed that they were doing the Indian people a favor. Do-gooders with a vengeance!

Hana wrote: "And Misfit, the points you and Karlyne raised about the risks of having women and children in India made me think of something else. The British women probably played a role in reinforcing the arro..."

You ladies haven't got there yet, but Kaye really brings that home later in the book, the danger to the men having women and children to worry about, instead of just concentrating on being soldiers. We'll talk about this morning when you get to the later chapters - don't want to spoil.

Karlyne wrote: "I think the very fact that most of the British didn't realize that the East was "civilized" gave rise to that horrible attitude. It was ignorance that grew into arrogance and then into a horrible t..."

I always come away with that with a Kaye novel, she just really lets you see how different our societies, customs, etc. and we're just never going to see eye to eye. I first read Far Pavilions back in the 80s and there we were messing around the middle east. Then I read it again about 5-6 years ago and nothing has changed. And if I read it again, we'd still be talking about the same problem, what the h*** are we doing in Afghanistan still? We just don't learn, do we?

Oh, anyone interested in the Afghan wars (I think it's the first one in this book), check out Emma Drummond's Beyond All Frontiers. She's also published as Elizabeth Darrell, and Endevour Press is slowly working on getting her stuff out on Kindle (and on Kindle Unlimited at that!). Drummond isn't quite MM Kaye, but she's got a strong family history in the east and military service and it shows.

Too true about Afghanistan, Misfit. Beyond All Frontiers was excellent--though horrifying.

More books for my TBR list.