Catholic Thought discussion

In these two chapters I could not help but notice the emphasis that that Dr. Carroll placed upon the foreshadowing of passages from the Old Testament toward events that would occur in the New Testament; especially regarding the coming of Jesus Christ.

This was one of the first times I have seen the Jewish commemoration of “Passover” being used to establish the annual dates for the commemoration of the Passion and Resurrection for Christians. The blood of lambs on the wood of door frames to the blood of the “Lamb of God” on the wood of the cross.

I would like to call attention to Dr. Carroll’s less than flattering references to “redactors”, biblical criticisms, and modern theories regarding the origins of biblical passages. I certainly can sympathize with him when it comes to the various methods of “Biblical Criticism”. I prefer to view the activity of “Biblical Criticism” more as an in depth analysis of the Biblical text being done by looking at it through various prisms. Starting in the 1700s and continuing to today various forms of “Criticism” have grown from a cottage industry into a big business.

Fr. Raymond Brown has authored a very good introduction to the New Testament, ISBN 0-385-24767-2, well worth a trip to the library, in it he outlines the various types of Criticism/Analysis; here is a brief listing:
1. Textual Analysis, looks at differences in copies of biblical text. This is intended to assist in reconciling copyists mistakes in manuscripts.
2. Historical Analysis, trying to determine the meaning of a passage based upon the grammar, idioms and customs of the time.
3. Source Analysis, much more directed at the NT were we can compare the events that have been reported in multiple manuscripts.
4. Form Analysis, tries to account for the various genres represented in the bible and how they may fit in ancient tradition.
5. Redaction Analysis, looks at the form of the entire text and tries to detect variances in the way various authors shaped the text.
6. Canonical Analysis, here we see the relationship of a given book to the books, or sets of passages, it is grouped with.
7. Structural Analysis, this method produces very complex outlines of the text. These outlines approach mathematical complexity (or beauty) depending on you viewpoint.
8. Narrative Analysis, this assists in determining the real from implied author of a text.
9. Rhetorical Analysis, identifying the methods employed by the author to increase the impact of the text on its intended audience.
10. Social Analysis, studies the text as a response to the cultural setting in which it is produced.
11. Advocacy Analysis, used over recent periods to further popular causes. For instance that liberation of the oppressed is the only prism through which the Bible should be read.

Thankfully this ends the list in Fr. Brown’s introductory pages (21 to 29). It should be noted that each of these forms a separate avenue of very serious study but each will also pose its own set of challenges. If overdone each of these can lead you down a path of nonsensical conclusions. Again a little bit can be informative and enhance your understanding; often times we are encouraged to increase our knowledge of Jewish culture and this does increase our grasp of Scripture but we need not convert. If you have a headache take and aspirin; if you take the entire bottle it is damaging.

I think that Dr. Carroll had probably encountered the zealots who had used some form of “Criticism” to undo their belief system to the point of becoming mentally useless. Dr. Carroll stated up front that he is a believer, he does not need to prove or disprove God’s inspired word in the Bible, enhancing our knowledge and appreciation is enough.

I hope some of my perspectives were of some interest. Please let all of us know some of the things in Chapters three and four that attracted your attention.

Mike,

I've also read Raymond Brown and enjoyed his thoughtful work. You might enjoy Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction by Lawrence Boadt as well.

The parallels with Christ are more familiar to me. I was trying to remember from which source. I've done a number of Bible studies with Scott Hahn and Steve Ray, read the Navarre Bible in which similar commentary can be found, etc.

Did anyone make the connection between the quote at the end of Chapter 3 regarding "the waters of Meribah, on the day of Massa in the desert".....referring to the rebellion in the wilderness and the way we begin our prayers each day for those who pray the Divine Office, Liturgy of the Hours? We always start with Psalm 95 which includes this phrase. :-) We begin every day with a reminder of God's warning.

Again, I'm very much enjoying this book. Is it just me or does the time zip by for others?

I particularly like the way he continues to place the events in context with the times.....while Moses was here, others were fighting there, etc.

Maybe it's because I'm also reading, simultaneously, a book on September 11, but I feel such sadness reading again of Jacob's struggles with his family, wrestling with the angel and receiving this foreshadowing name, then hearing of the struggles in the wilderness.

Leslie wrote: "Mike,

I've also read Raymond Brown and enjoyed his thoughtful work. You might enjoy Lawrence Boadt's An Introduction to the Old Testament as well.

The parallels with Christ are more familiar ..."

Leslie, happy to hear from another Fr. Brown reader, I have not read anything by L. Boadt but will look him up. I love the Navarre bible, they have two books on the Prophets; Major and Minor which parallel a good deal of the history we are reading in Carroll.

I did not connect to Psalm 95, thank you for pointing it out.

I am finding out for the first time the meaning of Bible passages I heard many times but now they are explained in a way not unlike Bishop Sheen explains them in this group’s concurrent reading of “Life of Christ”. As an example, “I AM” and the meaning of Yahweh” (p. 59) as well as what the Ark of the Covenant contained (p. 60) are in the Bible but the meaning somehow got by.

I am perplexed by other thoughts though in these two chapters. It seems that the promise of the Promised Land was of a hard future for the children of Abraham, which involved so many wars and struggles. The Lord was on their side even unto hurling great stones from the sky on the armies of the kings they fought (Joshua 10:11). What about the native people who were there already? What about them? How different was the call by Moses from Theodor Herzl’s pamphlet “The Jewish State” of 1896 calling for setting up a Jewish state in Palestine? I see parallels between the struggles in ancient times and in the last 70 years between the chosen people and the displaced Palestine inhabitants. Am I out of line here with such concerns?

Galicius, Personally, I do not think that you are out of line. I too, do not understand how the native people were forced into battle in defense of their land and with God hurling stones at them. The only thing I can think of is that they were not the chosen people and they were pagans so this is why God was on the side of the Israelites. It was a lesson; that God would look out after his chosen people and he would fulfill his promise of the Promised Land. According to some methods of Bible study, we can take these accounts as a literal interpretation, a literary creation or simply believe they never happened (the stories are there to teach a lesson). My Bible study teacher likes to quote a famous Catholic speaker (I can't remember the speaker's name) and she says "All stories in the Bible are true and some of them actually happened."

I am a little ignorant of the modern history of Israel, however in addition to Herzl's pamphlet, there is the 1917 Balfour Declaration. It states that Britain would help the Jewish people carve out a nation in Palestine as a "payment" to the Jews for their support in Eastern Europe when the Russian front collapsed during World War I. In my mind, pushing the Arabs onto a small strip of land is no different than the U.S. Government pushing the American Indians onto worthless sections of land called reservations. It is a sad and constantly repeated story.

Dr. Carroll's explanation of the plagues of Egypt, water soluble limestone, and manna were very interesting. I had no idea that manna was congealed sap that came from a tree. I always pictured thin white wafers dropping from the sky. It's surprising how long childhood beliefs can hang on.

In talking about the sin of Moses, Dr. Carroll says it "may have been the worst in Israel's history". I checked my Bible and the footnotes in The New American Catholic Study Bible hints at some possible specifics of the sin. The footnote for Numbers 20:11 states that since Moses struck the rock twice with the staff, his faith was not strong enough to know that only one strike would suffice. Also, the footnote for Numbers 20:12 states that the sin was doubting God's mercy toward the Israelites.

Susan Margaret wrote: "Galicius, Personally, I do not think that you are out of line. I too, do not understand how the native people were forced into battle in defense of their land and with God hurling stones at them. T..."

Thank you for a thoughtful response Susan Margaret. I didn’t see any purpose of getting into Middle East chronology of the last century because it would be going off too much on a tangent but I am at a loss
sometimes by the goings on in the Old Testament. I like your quote "All stories in the Bible are true and some of them actually happened."
I want to believe though that there is much more to “our” ancient writings than let’s say to Greek mythology, which is totally unorthodox.

Galicus,

Have you ever read Exodus by Leon Uris? It's an international bestseller, written in 1958 about the formation of Israel. It's on my list for this summer.

This is NOT a nonfiction account, but rather historical fiction. Just trying to be clear.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

Anyway, it still might be interesting to you. We don't always have to read history books for understanding of times. :-)

As for the comments about the Bible, I'm of the belief that it is much more accurate than people give it credit for being. I'm a believer in miracles and I think quite often God deliberately sets up tensions to make a point.

I think God deliberately wants you to consider the act of forgiveness in the Exodus stories. To me, the account is designed to make you question where do you draw the line? When is punishment deserved? The story highlights the obvious bad behavior of the followers, culminating in the death of the majority of the men while the women and children are allowed to enter the Promised Land. Similarly, Moses seems haphazardly to fall into a leadership role beyond his self-confidence. He does everything asked of him, but has minimal doubts, etc. Yet despite his sincere faith and loyalty he, too, is banished from the final destination and dies alone.

You are supposed to feel that this is unfair and you are supposed to consider what fair means, what forgiveness means, how far is too far, etc. You should be left wondering if an all powerful God that created ALL mankind has a favorite, the Isrealites, is that fair to everyone else. It's irony. God is throwing it out there deliberately to make you wonder. You should also wonder...if God has a favorite, why would it be Jacob, someone known for not getting along? Wouldn't God want to reward peaceful people? The point is.....if it's ok to not always get along, at what point is too much?

While I still believe that those events are real, I think the story is deliberately designed for a global, world view.

Does that help?

Wow Leslie! I love your interpretation. Sometimes I think too much with my head and not enough with my heart.

I think the story is designed to set up this tension whereby, as a Christian we love the fact that our people were The Chosen ones. Yet, as we read we feel frustrated because Moses was honest, faithful, loyal, forgiving of others, non-violent, etc. all the qualities that God asks of us, yet he doesn't make the cut. As you noodle thru that you have to reach a point where you must think....if I follow all of these rules in my life, but I know I'm imperfect too, will I not make the cut too?

I think the bigger lesson is that all humans are imperfect, all will need forgiveness, understanding and moral support, but we should also strive for these higher ideals. When we follow God as he asks, miracles are possible. Nothing is insurmountable, but when we falter in our faith, give in to doubt....we live a very mortal life with hardships and faith alone is not enough, but rather it must be faith in action. When the Israelites marked their doors, followed orders, miracles happened. Each time they faltered, a set back occurred...more wandering, etc.

One last thought on this. It reminds me of the story of Peter walking across the water to Jesus. He thinks he sees Jesus, calls out to him, asks if he may come to him. With full faith in Jesus's ability to help him walk on water, he does. Shortly into it, he second guesses and falters.

Leslie wrote: "This is NOT a nonfiction account, but rather historical fiction. Just trying to be clear.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

Anyway, it sti..."

Your comments Leslie show good approach and thinking about issue that are all that matters. We get caught up and forget the larger picture. Miracles are of course a matter of course in the Bible and we must believe. The stones could have been meteors but directed at the enemies of God’s children only (miraculously). And the other major thing we forget is that the ways of Yahweh are not for us to understand at least not here and not now. Yes it helps.

I did not read Exodus but am somewhat familiar with the history.

I just thought of it because it's sitting in my to read pile. :-) I knew the author's name, but had never read him. Not sure if it's good or not, we'll see.

What is your reading method with “Christendom”?

When scholarly footnotes exceed the length of the text as I often find here that makes it hard for a non-scholar like me to read the book. I loose the train of the argument or point he is making in a paragraph. My reading becomes disjointed and mixed up by jumping between the text and the notes. I made an attempt to read the text first without the footnotes. I then read the footnotes later but found it hard to make a strong connection to the text. I am just curious what works best for you if you wouldn’t mind commenting.

Galicius wrote: "What is your reading method with “Christendom”?..."

I usually read through the chapter once without reading the footnotes. Then I read through all of the footnotes and if a particular note interests me, I go back and re-read the paragraph in the text where the footnote number is located.

I usually read without footnotes unless I want to see the source, then I flip back but just for that one.

Galicius wrote: "What is your reading method with “Christendom”?

I will not stop to read a footnote, if the author is making a claim that is totally unfamiliar to me I will jot down the number and look it up after reading the chapter. I also generally review all the footnotes after reading the chapter.

Dr. Carroll uses a large number of footnotes because years of writing have probably taught him to defend what he is saying.

Susan Margaret wrote: "Galicius wrote: "What is your reading method with “Christendom”?..."

I usually read through the chapter once without reading the footnotes. Then I read through all of the footnotes and if a partic..."

Thank you kindly for your responses regarding the documentation in Christendom. That’s what I ended up doing. I don’t object to footnotes and have wished at times with some writers that they had used them.

I went back yesterday and re-read the first chapters and had saw something I meant to mention before regarding the Moses story.

Initially Moses came down the mountain with the ten commandments and everyone pledged on the spot to follow them. Then, Moses returned to God and was gone many days. I think this is paralleling future priests relationships to their people and, Jesus as well. During this time, the people returned to idol worship. I think highlighting the need for our religious leaders to not abandon us for too long, the need to maintain a visible presence in our lives with frequent interaction.

Also, Moses breaks the tablets, crushes the golden calf, but then prays for them. Here he models what every priest must do. :-) Humans are constantly in need of prayers and forgiveness for they always stray.

Moses goes back up the mountain and returns radiant in face highlighting the fact that he is standing in for God as he returns to the people. And so begins this repeating cycle of straying and forgiveness with prayers of intercession.

I still believe the story also highlights the need for people to remain faithful even when God is not obviously with us. When we feel abandoned, lost, confused, perhaps punished we must not give up on God.

I think we also need to remember that God does not give up on us. God is always with us, it is only when we are in sin and have "a beam in our eye" that we can't see that He is standing beside us and patiently waiting for us to see.

Yes, that was what I was trying to say in my last paragraph. :-)

Leslie wrote: "Yes, that was what I was trying to say in my last paragraph. :-)"

Got it. ;-) I always enjoy reading your posts Leslie. You have a good insight!

Thank you. You're kind.

Susan Margaret wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Yes, that was what I was trying to say in my last paragraph. :-)"

Got it. ;-) I always enjoy reading your posts Leslie. You have a good insight!"

I agree, I also enjoy your comments.

I do see a close parallel between this story of Moses and what every pastor must feel on a weekly basis. Moses is speaking directly to God and his people are fashioning little golden calves. A pastor is celebrating the holy sacrifice of the mass and 75% of the folks can't make it.

The only things our current priests and pastors can do is draw strength from those they are reaching.

Can't make it or distract everyone else during mass, leave early, come late, etc. :-)

Thank you both. I enjoy our group and our reading. I'm working on Chapter 5 now.