Chaos Reading discussion

Yesterday I convened an urgent discussion on the merits of a group read based on the Carcosa/Yellow King mythos, which is a thread running through HBO's new series True Detective.



I strongly advise you to check out that discussion here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...



What we've come up with is a set of short stories for a True Detective Group Read that provide the origins for the Yellow King mythos, plus an extended reading list of other relevant texts which relate to the mythos and/or the show True Detective.

GROUP READ STORIES
1) An Inhabitant of Carcosa - Ambrose Bierce
Available online here: http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdon...
and in audio here: https://archive.org/details/can_such_...

2) The first 4 stories in The King in Yellow - Robert Chambers
Available here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8492
The stories are: "The Repairer of Reputations", "The Mask", "In the Court of the Dragon" & "The Yellow Sign"

3) The Whisperer in Darkness: Collected Short Stories Volume 1 (just the title story, "The Whisperer In Darkness") - H.P. Lovecraft
Available here: http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600...

Discussion on these is open immediately, to coincide with the airing of True Detective. Please use spoiler tags where you can, particularly with regard to the tv show. Some people will not have read/watched up to the same point you have.
Be warned though, it's going to be difficult to have this discussion without some level of spoilerage.



Here's the extended reading list. If you've read all of the group read stories, and wish to continue the binge, there's plenty here to choose from. Feel free to raise these in the discussion too, again being mindful of spoilers.

Extended Reading For Completists, Obsessives & Miserablists
- Robert Chambers, "The Prophet's Paradise" (from "The King In Yellow")
- Karl E Wagner, "River of Night's Dreaming" (Available in these anthologies: http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cg...)
- James Blish, "More Light"
-Nic Pizzolatto, "Between Here and The Yellow Sea" (short stories)
-Thomas Ligotti, "Teatro Grottesco" (horror fiction)
- Thomas Ligotti, "The Conspiracy Against The Human Race" (non-fiction philosophy & inspiration for True Detective's Rust Cohle)
- Pulver, "A Season In Carcosa" - tribute anthology
- Bierce, "Can Such Things Be?" - the collection which includes "An Inhabitant of Carcosa", available here: https://archive.org/details/can_such_...
-Lovecraft, "Fungi from Yuggoth"
-Boccaccio, "The Decameron"

Discussion starts whenever you're ready..

I didn't realise it would be this immediate, i'll have to duck out for a long old time as I won't get around to reading this stuff for several weeks at least

Ruby is not messing around here!

Nope! I figured quite a few people have read some or all of these stories, and the show's airing now, so let's get on it! We'll try and keep the tv spoilers to an absolute minimum though.

Speaking of which, there's an interview gone up on the HBO True Detective site of Pizzolatto talking about The Yellow King:
[contains spoilers for people who hasn't seen s1e5]
http://darknessbecomesyou.com/episode...

Richard wrote: "I didn't realise it would be this immediate, i'll have to duck out for a long old time as I won't get around to reading this stuff for several weeks at least"

If you're trying to avoid spoilers for the show, I don't think you'll need to duck out. We'll use spoiler tags as we go, and I'm pretty strict on policing that sort of thing!

There will be some spoilers for the short stories, since so many people have read them previously, and this IS a group read discussion, but we'll try to use the "hide spoiler" code for those too, for now, where we can.

nah it's ok, i'll catch up later. i have a lot to read at the moment so i'll do the stories once i have seen True Detective and then come and read the comments

cheers

An Inhabitant of Carcosa
I just read the first story in our reading list, An Inhabitant of Carcosa. It packs a lot into about 2 pages! What utterly creeped me out is that I also just finished reading a very similar dream sequence from the beginning of the third novel in The Notebook, The Proof, The Third Lie: Three Novels. (Don't worry - it's not a spoiler). In both cases (view spoiler)[a man is wandering lost in the ruins of his hometown, and a big cat approaches -Bierce's is a lynx, Kristof's is a puma. Instead of a semi-clad wild man, Kristof's sequence has a small child who utters the lines, "He isn't mean. He belongs to me. Don't be scared of him. He doesn't eat people, he doesn't eat meat. He just eats souls." (hide spoiler)]
Creepy, no?

I was hoping to see some mention of the black stars that keep popping up in True Detective (see the pics in the first post). Maybe they'll be in Chambers...

Ruby wrote: "An Inhabitant of Carcosa
I just read the first story in our reading list, An Inhabitant of Carcosa. It packs a lot into about 2 pages! What utterly creeped me out is that I also jus..."

Awesome creepy coincidence. That story always makes me think of 'Ozymandias'.

I just glanced at "The King in Yellow". You will find your black stars on the first page. I need to stop reading this thread, or I will finally crack and download True Detective. Then my internet company will send me a cease and desist notice and threaten to slow down my connection.

Well...... there's only 5 episodes so far. Surely one little episode wouldn't upset anybody? ;)

Another article, via Think Progress, linking the Yellow King/Carcosa mythos with True Detective. There are spoilers for both the series and the stories of Bierce, Chambers & Blish. I've just added Blish to the extended reading list.
http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2014/...#

Getting 8 episodes tomorrow so I'll try and catch up

Richard wrote: "Getting 8 episodes tomorrow so I'll try and catch up"

How are you getting 8 episodes? Only 5 have been released?

5, you're right.

Richard wrote: "5, you're right."

Damn. I was hoping you'd managed to get your hands on advance copies. Apparently you can do that if you're Obama.
OMG. Are you really Obama?

That's confidential

Whitney wrote: "I just glanced at "The King in Yellow". You will find your black stars on the first page..."

Yup. Just saw the black stars!

Buzzfeed has a True Detective Reading List they put up yesterday too, although theirs is much broader than Carcosa/The Yellow King. I'll be adding the ones I haven't read to my "high-priority" shelf too..
http://www.buzzfeed.com/lincolnmichel...

Hmmm... I'm probably not going to have both access and time to watch True Detective for a while... Sounds like it would be hard to participate and not take away from my eventual enjoyment of the show.

I'm thinking the same thing. Although I think the recommended literature will add to the show, just not the articles comparing it to the show.

Re: Thomas Ligotti, love his short stories. I'd never heard of the book referenced n the buzz feed article, but now I must have it. It sounds like it may be the actual Yellow King / Necronomicon.

Marc wrote: "Hmmm... I'm probably not going to have both access and time to watch True Detective for a while... Sounds like it would be hard to participate and not take away from my eventual enjoyment of the show."

What if I promise to keep the tv spoilers away?

Whitney wrote: "I'm thinking the same thing. Although I think the recommended literature will add to the show, just not the articles comparing it to the show. ..."

I was hoping that if I labelled them as such, people could avoid those ones if they haven't yet seen the show?

Ruby wrote: "Whitney wrote: "I'm thinking the same thing. Although I think the recommended literature will add to the show, just not the articles comparing it to the show. ..."

I was hoping that if I labelled ..."

I love the idea of this read. I thought it sounded like more fun if the show was included, and I would be happy just revisiting it with the other cable-phobic after the DVDs come out. But I defer to your moderatorial greatness. If you think the discussion will still be as cool with references to the show de-integrated from the comments, I will for sure stick around!

Whitney wrote: "I love the idea of this read. I thought it sounded like more fun if the show was included, and I would be happy just revisiting it with the other cable-phobic after the DVDs come out. But I defer to your moderatorial greatness. If you think the discussion will still be as cool with references to the show de-integrated from the comments, I will for sure stick around! ..."

YAY! It's tricky when people are in different places in the books & series, but I think it'll be fun to try a more.. "organic" (possibly "chaotic") approach to the two media while it's all unfolding. I definitely respect people's rights to not have their tv viewing spoiled though. It drives me crazy too. So warnings will abound.

Hopefully it'll still be fun to trawl back through as you're watching the DVDs too. For that reason, I'll try to give an indication of what point in the series the articles are referring to.

Warnings should be enough to do the trick, but you certainly don't need to cater to me!

Marc wrote: "Warnings should be enough to do the trick, but you certainly don't need to cater to me!"

Actually, I think I do. When people have good contributions to make to group read discussions, it does not go unnoticed. :)

Ruby wrote: "Marc wrote: "Warnings should be enough to do the trick, but you certainly don't need to cater to me!"

Actually, I think I do. When people have good contributions to make to group read discussions,..."

Awwww, I is all warm and fuzzy now :-)

{blush} Grazie.

'Guess I better get my arse in gear and start reading!

Watching it now, will try and start the reading next week. Tis good!

Okay. I HAVE to post this. It is a FAUX leaked alternative script of an epic single-take scene of True Detective. I repeat this does not happen on the show. Also, it probably won't be funny if you haven't seen the show yet. But there is a reference to 19th Century horror literature. Make up your own minds whether clicking the link will spoil your tv experience or not.. http://happyplace.someecards.com/2944...

Now back to the group READ - Is anyone else reading Chambers right now, or already has read the first story? I'm partway through "The Repairer of Reputations" and loving it. I love Chambers' wry humour.

Ruby wrote: "I was hoping to see some mention of the black stars…"

I saw even the stars in ab­sence of dark­ness.

I'd guess that qualifies as "black stars".

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Ruby wrote: "I was hoping to see some mention of the black stars…"

I saw even the stars in ab­sence of dark­ness.

I'd guess that qualifies as "black stars"."

I did wonder about that line in Bierce too. It's definitely there in Cassilda's Song in Chambers story, "The Repairer of Reputations" though. I'm really enjoying the story too. The language isn't as flowery as I expected for late 19th century lit -it reads like it could've been written yesterday.

Great...more to read. I REALLY like the series. Its well done.

Jennifer wrote: "Great...more to read. I REALLY like the series. Its well done."

Isn't it? I'm watching nothing but replays of the first 5 eps in between reading the stories that inspired the mythology, plus playing around with a music playlist inspired by the show..... heaven. :)

[edit} Speaking of the playlist, here's a track from the soundtrack to inspire you: Kingdom of Heaven - 13th Floor Elevators

Don't worry about too much to read - the first story is only a couple of pages at most. The second is longer, but Chambers reads very quickly. Even the Lovecraft one isn't one of his longer tales. My problem will be stopping there and not working my way through the extended list. I'm tempted, but I've committed to so many things next month..

I'm loving the Chambers stories. Somehow managed to fall asleep at 3.30am with the Kindle still in my hand. :)

Question...are you reading the Chambers stories with pictures or without?? It seems like pictures would be good in this instance...

Sonofa…. I was perfectly content waiting for the DVD's until this thread pushed me over the edge and I found a decent streaming site with episode 1 of True Detective. And now I understand the need for the emergency read. NEW BEST SHOW EVER!!! And, yes the soundtrack is pretty awesome too.

And the first story in The King in Yellow was pretty great too. Are we discussing that yet? Just in case: (view spoiler)[There seems to be a 'really incredibly unreliable narrators" theme around here lately. (hide spoiler)]

2 episodes in, not sure if i'll do this additional reading. the shows not bad, i'm not blown away by it yet but it's certainly better than average

Whitney wrote: "Sonofa…. I was perfectly content waiting for the DVD's until this thread pushed me over the edge and I found a decent streaming site with episode 1 of True Detective. And now I understand the need ..."

YAY! Glad you're getting into it. It's a wonderful thing. Every episode, I feel like I have a different idea of what the show is and where it's going.

Yes - I'm up to the fourth story in The King in Yellow and really enjoying it.
*KING IN YELLOW STORY SPOILERS BELOW*
(view spoiler)[Good point about the unreliable narrators- The book I've just finished also had that as an element, so I'm getting used to not taking anything for granted! (hide spoiler)]

For anyone who's read the four stories at the front of Chambers' book, there's a fun little site here which reconstructs as much as is known about The Play in the stories: http://kinginyellow.wikia.com/wiki/Th...

I really think that from here on out, spoilers about the stories should be okay. Speak up now if that's going to ruin your reading experience though..

no worries re spoilers. the show isn't making me thirst for extra info so i'll just watch rather than read

Re: Chambers "King In Yellow":
So, after all the obsessing about "black stars" I was surprised that the fourth story starts with a reference to "blue starlight"..

I've only read the first two, and listened to the 4th. Really liked 'The Repairer of Reputations". But I share that love of "what the hell is really going on here" stories. At least when done right.

Is any of the future 'history' that Hildred present true? I suspect that Hawberk and Constance were real people, but the name and the profession of armorer seem unlikely. Also, the 'Lethal Chamber"? (My theory is that it was were public restrooms.) Was Wilde really deformed? Did Hildred kill Wilde? Did he kill Dr. Archer as claimed?

Whitney wrote: "I've only read the first two, and listened to the 4th. Really liked 'The Repairer of Reputations". But I share that love of "what the hell is really going on here" stories. At least when done right..."

You know, I was in such a hurry to get to the next story and join the dots between them I really didn't stop and think about which bits might be true and not. I really liked this vision of future America that Chambers created, and it was such an unexpected surprise to me. I never thought to question it. It does all seem unlikely, but I just put that down to, "It was written in the late 1800s". I had a laugh at the bit where they redesigned New York to remove all the unsightly vertical stuff, and put it below ground!

Let's see: If Hawberk wasn't an armourer, where is Hildred getting the "chink" of metal sounds from? He says it's the only reason he goes to see him. I think it's probably true, and that Hawberk works for a museum of some sort - and maybe this is why Hildred was drawn to him in the first place? So then, what about Louis & his regiment? They're described with those sorts of accoutrements also, as well as the accompanying "chinking".

The Lethal Chamber.... what would public restrooms have looked like in late 19thC New York? Google tells me they didn't exist. Here's a thought - what if it's not really New York? All the other stories seem to be set in Paris. And there were public restrooms in Paris around that time - although these were a recent thing.

I'll have to think about the other bits..

The restroom is a bit of a toss off. But there were public restrooms in Europe in the mid 19th century, and this is New York as imagined by someone in 1895. And it would explain the figure running into the structure who Hildred claims is Vance. I'm pretty convinced there was no Vance.

I still think 'Halberk' is a bit on the nose for an armorer, but that may just be Chambers.

What if there's no Wilde? And there IS a Vance? Hildred could have been playing both parts in front of a terrified Vance. I have no evidence for this, but the idea appeals to me.

This just in: True Detective pushes The King in Yellow and Other Horror Stories back onto the Amazon best seller's list after 120 years. Despite it being free on Project Gutenberg. How awesome is that? http://bookslive.co.za/blog/2014/02/2...

I downloaded Can Such Things Be? from Amazon (for free) the other day (An Inhabitant of Carcosa is one story in the collection). The formatting is atrocious! The formatting of the version on Project Gutenberg is very basic, but it is much better than the Amazon one (and DRM free).

Both Amazon and B&N frequently have crap formatting on their public domain ebooks. I'm guessing they are assigned to the lowest level of employee for encoding. They're also frequently advertised as the incorrect version, having a different introduction or translator than the one listed in the blurb or shown on the cover.

Ruby wrote: "What if there's no Wilde? And there IS a Vance? Hildred could have been playing both parts in front of a terrified Vance. I have no evidence for this, but the idea appeals to me."

Both Halberk and Louis discuss Wilde with Hildred in scenes that seem to imply that what they are saying is correctly represented, but their responses to Hildred are seriously misinterpreted. But Vance appears as if from nowhere in Wilde's room, and then is seen as a shadowy figure running into the 'lethal chamber'. And he obviously didn't carry out his supposed assignment to kill Halberk and Constance.

I think I've been ruined for books that tell simple stories with nothing left to the imagination as far as actual events.

True Detective post now. Five episodes in and still love it, but I don't think it will be replacing The Wire at the top of my TV favorites list. Definitely top 5, though. (view spoiler)[ It's looking very much like it will be clear that any supernatural elements are going to be represented only as the beliefs of the perpetrators, which makes sense as far as the series goes. But I do hope there's a little ambiguity left as well, such as the scene where Chole sees the birds form a spiral. (hide spoiler)]