Chaos Reading discussion

2014 Group Read #2: WAR & WAR by László Krasznahorkai
So after a very tight race, the "Hungarians" have been victorious against the "Horns" theme! I'm trying to allow some extra time for this one, since there's an Emergency True Detective Group Read going on at the same time. Also, I understand that his writing can be quite dense - so please post in the thread to let us know if you need more time (or less time even) to start this discussion. We'll just have to be a little bit flexible..

GROUP READ DETAILS
*Reading starts: As soon as you're able. Let us know if you get finished really early & want to start discussing, or if you're not going to get done in time.
*Discussion Starts: 25 March 2014
*On the day, I'll add a note to the title of this thread to let people know the discussion's started. In the meantime, people can stop by this thread to chat, and read/post bonus material about the book - but please flag or hide any spoilers until discussion opens.

FACTS & TRIVIA
*Length: 279 pages
*First published: 2006
*Author: Laszlo Krasznahorkai (Hungary)
*László Krasznahorkai is both a novelist and a screenwriter who is known for critically difficult, demanding postmodernist novels with dystopian and melancholic themes.
*Several of his works, notably his novels Satantango and The Melancholy of Resistance have been turned into feature films by Hungarian film director Béla Tarr.
*Krasznahorkai has been honoured with numerous literary prizes, among them the highest award of the Hungarian state, the Kossuth Prize and most recently (2014) the America Award for a lifetime contribution to international writing.

Whoo hoo! It will be tight, but I think I can do mid-march. I will probably wait on the Emergency Read discussion until after the DVD release anyway. If I can control myself. I'm not really known for my self control. Just ask that tin of cookies over there.

It's not available on kindle dammit.

It's available on kindle here. I know this came up a long time ago, but why would they make it available in one country and not another?

Whitney wrote: "It's available on kindle here. I know this came up a long time ago, but why would they make it available in one country and not another?"

Because Amazon is evil. This is also why I refuse to migrate to their Australian site.

Whitney wrote: "Whoo hoo! It will be tight, but I think I can do mid-march. I will probably wait on the Emergency Read discussion until after the DVD release anyway. If I can control myself. I'm not really known f..."

I was hoping you'd still do the short story read. You're probably the only one who's read most of these already!

Whitney wrote: "It's available on kindle here. I know this came up a long time ago, but why would they make it available in one country and not another?"

can't see it on amazon uk or us

I've no issue with amazon, kindle books are cheap as chips. i think since i got my kindle my reading has doubled - though i got a load of paperbacks for Christmas so I'm back on real books for now

Here it is on Amazon US: http://www.amazon.com/War-László-Kras...

Whitney wrote: "Here it is on Amazon US: http://www.amazon.com/War-László-Kras..."

Yeah - it's not available though.

Ruby wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Here it is on Amazon US: http://www.amazon.com/War-László-Kras..."

Yeah - it's not available though. ..."

Right, yeah. Available in the US. This is lame. I am going to now make it a point to find this book and steal it and send it to everyone in this group.

i am thinking about buying it now but i dunno. i've tried my library and they gazed at me over very greasy glasses and said "whaaaa?"

i'll ask an intelligent friend if he has a copy

I am failing in my attempts to steal this book and distribute it. Just as well, I'm not really hurting Amazon anyway.

Whitney wrote: "I am failing in my attempts to steal this book and distribute it. Just as well, I'm not really hurting Amazon anyway."

You were serious, then. I admire your efforts. I had to fork over $20 to Book Depository to get a copy. I hope I like it..

I think the thought really does count if you were going to steal us all a copy, Whitney!

I was going to go the lazy route (Amazon), but perhaps I'll try the local bookstore instead (already struck out with two different library systems and there's not really a nearby independent bookstore but time is on my side).

Hey, I think I found the full book on Scribd--tried before, and could only get a preview, but I searched a quotation from the book, found a hit for it on Scribd, and clicked on the cached version of it--and it appears to be the full text. I copied and pasted into Word, and the wordcount came out to around 119,000--though I can't find an official wordcount on the book to compare it to. Here's the link, for anyone who still needs the book: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com...

I'm guessing if you wanted to read it on an e-reader, you can copy&paste and save in another program, then convert it to a compatible file type.

caracal-eyes wrote: "Hey, I think I found the full book on Scribd--tried before, and could only get a preview, but I searched a quotation from the book, found a hit for it on Scribd, and clicked on the cached version o..."

Nice. I have a copy from the library. I did a text search of the one in your link at random points in the book, and it looks like it's all there.

If pushing the date out a little is still on the table, I'd be for it. I've gotten in a little over my head with group reads and signing on to co-moderate in another group. But if people want to keep the 14th, I shall do my best to keep up. Because I really want to read this one.

Thanks Caracal-Eyes for sorting out a version that people can access. It hasn't been an easy one to locate!

I'm happy to push the date out if that suits everyone. I too am way over-committed. I complained to a couple of publishers about the formats on a bunch of their netgalley arcs. Now they're all fixed... and waiting to be read & reviewed.

Would March 25th be enough extra time do you think? Or maybe a bit longer?

A later date is fine by me!

I think that would do it, thanks!

Done. 25th of March is the new start date for discussion.

So my copy of this just turned up today. How's everyone else going getting hold of it?

Ruby wrote: "So my copy of this just turned up today. How's everyone else going getting hold of it?"

My awesome local library!

And, so far, loving it! Already encountered a semi-oblique reference to Bela Tarr films, which made me happy.

I picked up a copy last week at a local, independent bookstore : )

sorry, swamped with a stack of books that i kinda really want to read and had no luck finding this at my local stores

i'm out, i'll try and do better next time

I got my copy but have it to read 3/25.

I'm struggling to get through it quickly due to health issues (I keep nodding off halfway through the page & having to start again). I'm getting there, just slooowwwwlllllyyyyyy....

Ruby wrote: "I'm struggling to get through it quickly due to health issues (I keep nodding off halfway through the page & having to start again). I'm getting there, just slooowwwwlllllyyyyyy...."

I'm definitely finding it a slow read, even without any major health issues. A good slow read though. I should be finished by the intended date, but if you want to push it out again so no one feels they have to rush through it, I'm fine with that.

I'm finding it's got a good momentum, but you need to get a couple of pages under your belt to get into the rhythm. Difficult when you're heavily medicated! Apparently I inhaled something that didn't agree with me at a protest march on Sunday (no, it wasn't pot) and my face looks a bit like lumpy balloon now. :(

You were marching in March as well? (Nothing to do with the book, sorry, but good on you. The Sydney one was great)

Richard wrote: "You were marching in March as well? (Nothing to do with the book, sorry, but good on you. The Sydney one was great)"

Yep. Here I am at the TSV march. Glad you made it as well. :)


Here's a really good vine of all the marches around the country. It's frightening how little of it made any of Murdoch's papers, and how incredibly sk(r)ewed the coverage is. Hard to minimise all this though..
http://www.thevine.com.au/life/news/t...

I might have to admit defeat on this one, and extend the date. I still haven't made it halfway!

New discussion date: 1 April (yes, April Fools Day but I really mean it).

Thanks, and sorry to anyone who's been inconvenienced.

Ruby wrote: "I might have to admit defeat on this one, and extend the date. I still haven't made it halfway!

New discussion date: 1 April (yes, April Fools Day but I really mean it). ..."

That's fine by me, I haven't quite finished yet anyway.

I've got about 80 pgs. left. Should be done in a few days, but no complaints about extending the date. Hope your health issues improve soon!

You were correct the writing is really quite dense, not to mention each chapter is a full paragraph.

I will keep trudging along...

I'm still trudgin' too..

That doesn't sound very promising. It was definitely one of those books I need to be in a certain mood to read. Thankfully I was in the mood.

Okay, discussion is now open!

I ill admit, I haven't quite finished the book so I'll refrain from posting just yet. Would someone else who HAS finished the book like to kick it off?

Ruby wrote: "Okay, discussion is now open!

I ill admit, I haven't quite finished the book so I'll refrain from posting just yet. Would someone else who HAS finished the book like to kick it off?"

I'm okay with waiting for you to catch up. But as a related topic, anyone else seen Bela Tarr's films, some of which are based on Krasznahorkai books? The affinity is immediately apparent. I kept picturing War & War as if filmed by Tarr, crisp black and white and very long takes, which match perfectly to the single-sentance chapters. I especially envision long scenes with the narrator at a small table in the foreground of a grubby kitchen, babbling away at the back of the translator's girlfriend busying herself at the stove.

Here is an article on War & War that I thought was quite good, it also has a picture of the artwork that figures prominently in the end. I was unable to find the name of that particular piece, but a similar one by the same artist is called “At The Still Point Of The Turning World”, which fits handily with the novel. I thought this quote from the article was particularly apt:

“Through each of his absurd attempts to relate information, Korin reveals the transformative power of storytelling itself. It is not just the story that matters, perhaps not even the story that is important, but the telling itself, the very act of creating fiction can completely change lives.”

http://exploringfictions.blogspot.com...

I think there may only be four of us reading this so waiting for everyone to catch up is fine by me, too.

I did read an interesting interview with Krasznahorkai where we explained his long sentences as more reflective of how we actually speak. We don't end things so much as keep a thread ongoing with pauses and jumps and tangents. I don't find his prose tiring, but I did find the endlessness of the text sometimes daunting.

Whitney, I'm not in the least bit familiar with Bela Tarr's films--would you say your reaction to this book would have been any more or less positive having not seen his films first?

Marc wrote: "Whitney, I'm not in the least bit familiar with Bela Tarr's films--would you say your reaction to this book would have been any more or less positive having not seen his films first? ..."

That's a good question. I was definitely predisposed to like Krasznahorkai because of the films. I think they probably helped me fall into the rhythm of his writing easier as well.

Fun fact. In the nightclub scene early in War and War, Mihály Víg's band Balaton is playing. Víg was the lead in Satantango (also from a novel / screenplay by Krasznahorkai), and scored some of Tarr's other films as well.

I apologise for not joining in this one- humped for time, down to about 5 pages/day of anything, and if I'd ordered it at the time it might have arrived by now (LFMF- moving country? How good is postage and availability of books in your native language?) Readers of the chaos I have not thee forsaken. Still would like to know about this book and connections with Bela Tarr cinema and attracted by the sound of "critically difficult, demanding postmodernist novels with dystopian and melancholic themes" :-)

Hum...I suppose I should put some of Bela Tarr's work on my 'to-watch' list, then.

As for the sculpture mentioned in the book, I think it might be "My home's wind," which is located in the Hallen fur Neue Kunst in Schaffhausen, and seems best to fit the description in the book (there are several of Merz's igloos there)--not quite as I envisioned it, but it's the only one of Merz's sculptures I could find that was in the right gallery, made of glass and metal, and had neon words on it.

Here's a link to the page: http://raussmueller.org/de/x/a/DC7D6F...

This part of the description seemed especially pertinent: "The entire construct has a lightness that borders on the ephemeral and transports an atmosphere that lies between liberation and melancholy. The principle of openness has found its metaphor here, and the wind’s movement attains a sensual quality. I move with the wind that originates in the past and carries me into the future. I sense the spiritual freedom that it conveys, and I experience the clarity as an approach to life."

Since it seemed to me that the main characters of this book were looking for an escape, and escape to a place of peace and freedom from fear, this seems fitting. Also, Korin's impression of the sculpture, from the photographs he sees, is "...a completely open empty space surrounded by white walls, and inside it a remarkably light-looking, delicate contraption, a bubble of air..."

Okay, I'm confused. I read the article Whitney linked to, and to me it seems that whoever wrote it misunderstood the timing of the final chapter of the book--I was pretty sure that was meant to have occurred before the rest of the story, especially as Korin had previously told the interpreter's lover about the scar on his right hand, which he said was 'the result of an incident a very long time ago, at a time when he felt bitterly disappointed...what happened was that he had shot through it...'
...although, looking back at the actual book, in the final chapter he shoots himself in the left hand, not the right... But my understanding was that Korin, immediately after leaving the museum, committed suicide--and that seems to be the case, because we hear the story of Korin's arrival at the gallery in the words of the security guard, "the next morning on his way home from the hearing." That suggests that the events in the final chapter couldn't have happened between Korin's arrival in Schaffhausen and his death, since he apparently arrives at the bar where he delivers his drunken monologue to the 'angel' "...after three continuous days of drunken misadventure."

Any ideas about this? The book was hard enough to follow sometimes, I don't need any further cause for confusion.

I thought the article messed up on the time frame as well. Spoilers are okay now, right?

Korin killed himself in Switzerland, and the incident at the bar happened back in Hungary. I didn't catch the change in injured hands, though, nice catch. I have to go back and reread that.

Found an interesting interview with the author here: Conversations with László Krasznahorkai

That at least clears up the time frame--'Isaiah Has Come' does occur 3 years before the rest of the story, in Korin's birthplace. But the interview in general is interesting.

I'm getting there, everyone.... less than 10 pages to go. I just still keep falling asleep every 2 pages or so!

Go Ruby! Go Ruby! GoRuby!

So, is this unique to this particular book, or an ongoing issue? Because, good for insomnia, lousy for reading.

Whitney wrote: "Go Ruby! Go Ruby! GoRuby!

So, is this unique to this particular book, or an ongoing issue? Because, good for insomnia, lousy for reading."

Ongoing issue, but it comes and goes. It's not even really sleep, just sort of half-state drowsing/dreaming, where my internal monologue continues after I've lost consciousness, so my subconscious is making up new words as it goes along. Makes it really hard to figure out which bit I'm up to, and which bits were even really in the book! Particularly tricky with the style of this book.

Wow, I'd forgotten, but I used to do this all the time - nod off while reading and in a semi-dream state continue to read the book. I usually had little memory of what I'd actually contributed, but while reading I would get occasional flashes of surreal, deja vu like memories related to my nonsensical inventions.