Classic Horror Lovers discussion

Lets start a buddy read of Randalls Round by Eleanor Scott. Read at your own pace and feel free to discuss. Please use spoiler tags if needed.

"Randalls Round"
"The Twelve Apostles"
"Celui-la"
"The Room"
"The Cure"
"The Tree"
"At Simmel Acres Farm"
"Will Ye No' Come Back Again?"
"The Old Lady"

**********"Randalls Round"**********

This was a pretty straight forward short story with little, I felt, to read between the lines.

I did feel that the story was somewhat reminiscent of the MR James shorts that we read earlier, namely the travelling to a small out-of-the-way town to browse old records. That must have been quite the activity of academics back in the day.

I'll be joining in the discussion by tomorrow evening at the latest. (I'm involved in a conference for the first part of this week, so time's a bit tight.) Looking forward to reading these stories once again.

Discussion of "Randalls Round".

(view spoiler)[I would agree with your assessment, Ken, of Scott's title story as "Jamesian", particularly given Heyling's investigation regarding the long barrow and the surrounding field in the Guildhall's Record Room. But I personally wouldn't make too much of the comparison. I think Scott is her own writer with a style that's somewhat distinct from that of Dr. James. The story's theme has the whiff of the green man/wicker man/neo-pagan theme that often crops up in British horror literature. Peter Bell published a story entitled "Resurrection" in 2006 (recently collected in Strange Epiphanies, 2012) that, according to the author, was inspired in part by "Randalls Round". (hide spoiler)]

✭✭✭½

I'm going to try and tackle the next two stories in the collection this weekend.

*****"The Twelve Apostles"*****

The first bit of the story reminded me of Afterward by Edith Wharton with the American looking to procure a house with a confirmed haunting. Thankfully, the similarities ended there. I found the Wharton book slow and dry and was never able to finish it. This one on the other hand was able to hold my attention.

I like the humor at the beginning of the story displaying the American's lack of knowledge in regards to local history. "...Priests of the - er - Roman persuasion." "Evarard was a Roman, then?" To which the vicar replied dismissively, "He was."

Sadly, that representation is one that I have seen often in literature and have seen displayed a little too often in real life.

While it is a fair representation, the monopoly on knowledge of history does not belong to the English. We had a British exchange student one summer who asked me, "Have the United States and England ever fought a war against each other?". Yeah, you might say maybe one or two small ones.

But, that is just a mere matter of perspective. The Americans really don't emphasize that small rift between the church in England and the church in Rome just as the English don't emphasize that minuscule skirmish between that uppity colony and the imperialistic power. (I'm being sarcastic, of course....which is not an American monopoly.)

(view spoiler)[But, Matthews seemed particularly daft. After talking to the vicar and hearing the history of the house and the particulars of the life, death and burial of the alchemist, Matthews, to his own near demise, doesn't at first seem to connect the north facing room to the room in the story nor does he seem to ever acknowledge any recognition of the significance of the snail trails. (hide spoiler)]

Side-note, any mention of Albrecht Durer gains an author a couple of points in my book. I visited his home / workshop while in Nuremberg. If I wasn't already, I became a big fan. On the recommended list if you ever find yourself in Germany.

Discussion of "The Twelve Apostles".

(view spoiler)[This Scott story struck me as far more the Jamesian pastiche than did the opener. In fact, it's hard to read "Apostles" without thinking of "The Treasure of Abbot Thomas" (1904). In each story the ramp-up to the climax consists, in part, of solving a puzzle in order to locate a treasure. (In neither case is the elaborate conundrum all that convincing or engaging; at least in the case of the Scott story the solution phase doesn't drag on quite as long as it did in "Abbot".) And in each story the protagonist finds, to his dismay, an otherworldly and repugnant guardian keeping watch over the treasure. I thought Scott did a pretty decent job with the climax, but, while competent, the lead up to Matthews' encounter with the whatever-it-was behind the panel was rather ordinary.

A few other observations. I take your point, Ken, about Scott's description of Matthews as an American. For me it smacked just a bit too much of the kind of stereotypical Gilded Age American that Wilde popularized in "The Canterville Ghost" (1887). Scott goes out her way to paint Matthews as "modern" and to emphasize his somewhat crass consumerism, contrasting this with the more tradition-respecting ethos embodied by the vicar and the Sharpes.

And like you, Ken, I was struck by how uncritical in his thinking Matthews seemed to be while pursuing his goal. I usually cut authors some slack in this regard, because this is often a means of moving the plot forward. But there is one passage where I more or less mentally threw up my hands in exasperation — the point where Matthews almost seems to say, "Gosh. It seems this hallway is frequented during the dead of night by some variety of giant slug that can't cross a boundary of holy water. Ho-hum. Well, I'm off to get some breakfast."

Don't let my criticisms persuade you that I think this was a bad tale. I don't. But my re-reading confirmed to me that it's not my favorite from the collection. (hide spoiler)]

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**********"Celui-la"**********

I hate to keep comparing these stories to similarities to the MR James stories that we just read. But, there were certainly similarities to two James stories in this one, "A Warning to the Curious" (the beach scenes) and "Whistle and I'll Come to You" (the summoning of something otherworldly).

One thing bothered me about this short story. (view spoiler)[Maddox uncovers the fresco and then never mentions it to the cure and the cure never mentions having seen it uncovered. It would seem to me that with the wall being such an obsession of the cure that some mention one way or another would had to have occurred. (hide spoiler)]

Discussion of "Celui-là".

(view spoiler)["Celui-là" is perhaps the best-known of Scott's ghostly tales. At any rate, I’m pretty sure that it’s been the most anthologized. It recently appeared, for example, in John Pelan's anthology, The Century's Best Horror Fiction, Volume One (2012). As best I can recall it's my favorite of the stories in Scott's collection.

I take your point, Ken, about the Jamesian nature of this story in particular. For me, the beach scenes, Maddox's dreams (although not as explicit as the ones endured by Parkins), and the eerie sheeted figure invite comparisons with "Oh, Whistle, and I'll Come to You, My Lad" (1904). Richard Dalby, in the introduction to the book, also comments on these parallels. However, the story is not merely a pastiche. It does highlight some of Scott's own interests — for example, her "obsession" (if that's not too strong a word) with human sacrifice, a motif that crops up in a number of entries, including the title story.

Setting comparisons with James aside, I must say that I think the story is very well constructed. I especially liked that point where Maddox discovers that it is not Foster who is standing so very close behind him. (A lengthy aside — I had wondered when re-reading "Randalls Round" whether H. R. Wakefield might not have read Scott. There are several points of similarity between "Round" and a later Wakefield story I read a bit ago, "The First Sheaf", 1940. Re-reading "Celui-là" reinforced that line of thinking: I may well be making too much of nothing, but the afore-described scene with Maddox is, to my mind, strikingly reminiscent of one in Wakefield's "Frontier Guards", which first appeared some two months after Scott's collection saw print.)

Ken wrote (in part):

One thing bothered me about this short story. Maddox uncovers the fresco and then never mentions it to the cure and the cure never mentions having seen it uncovered. It would seem to me that with the wall being such an obsession of the cure that some mention one way or another would had to have occurred.

I, too, wondered about Maddox's failure to mention the fresco to Father Vétier. Both men seem extremely reluctant to talk about celui-là (although for different reasons), and I made the assumption that Maddox' failure to discuss the fresco (which he very quickly associates with the incident on the beach and with the box) was part and parcel of his reticence to discuss the larger phenomenon at issue. There is an additional reason that the curé may have failed to bring up the issue of the fresco. He may simply not have noticed it. Scott makes a point of emphasizing when Maddox shows the ruined wall to Foster how indistinct the figures had become. (Less visible in the daylight?)

Finally, I had a notion when re-reading "Celui-là" last night that I wanted to bounce off of you, Ken. Perhaps it's just a reflection of my morbid streak, but I thought the story would have been a slightly better and more effective one if Maddox had died. For one thing, Maddox's death would have emphasized both the horrific and arbitrary nature of the forces arrayed against him. (Arbitrary in the sense that Maddox is not a bad guy getting his just deserts; he is instead an innocent who through no real fault of his own got in over his head.) Second, his survival doesn't seem to benefit the story. We have Foster to tell us what happened; on the other hand, Maddox, at the story's conclusion, is not allowed by the author to tell us anything of the final experiences he suffered through. Just some thoughts... (hide spoiler)]

✭✭✭✭½

Canavan wrote: "Discussion of "Celui-là".

"Celui-là" is perhaps the best-known of Scott's ghostly tales. At any rate, I’m pretty sure that it’s been the most anthologized. It recently appeared, fo..."

(view spoiler)[I agree. She should have killed off Maddox for dramatic effect!

Another idea came to me in regards to the fresco. Maybe the cure did see the fresco and recognize it for what it was, closing some logical loop. He then realized what was already in motion and his passing on the beach at the climax of the story was more than just the coincidence that he claimed. (hide spoiler)]

Discussion of “The Room”.

According to Dalby, “The Room” is the oldest of the stories in Scott's collection. I’m not sure whether that fact is significant, but it’s certainly different in theme from the others read to this point. (view spoiler)[It has something of the flavor of a parable with the different players standing in for different vices/qualities. My problem here is that I’m not really predisposed to appreciate such stories. There are passages where, I think, Scott’s skill as a writer shows through — particularly when recounting Amory’s reaction to the room. But on the whole my reaction to the tale was rather tepid. My other negative thought had to do with the way the story was constructed. That is, even the half-astute reader will very quickly realize what is going to happen when each of the participants spends a night in the room; even Reece’s reaction (which should have set up so as to be more of a “twist”) comes as no real surprise. (hide spoiler)]

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Canavan wrote: "Discussion of “The Room”.

According to Dalby, “The Room” is the oldest of the stories in Scott's collection. I’m not sure whether that fact is significant, but it’s ..."

I agree! (view spoiler)[The whole premise was pretty obvious. The deadly sins were even mentioned in passing at the beginning of the story and each character lived their vice in the room. (Did the absent maid, Lily, live her vice, lust, in that room?). (hide spoiler)]

Ken writes (in part):


(view spoiler)[
(Did the absent maid, Lily, live her vice, lust, in that room?)

The somewhat lengthy aside concerning the maid struck me as odd or perhaps clumsy. When I first read the story I had thought Scott would somehow or other return to Lily’s plight later in the story, probably in relation to one of the other characters. But instead no further mention of her is made.
(hide spoiler)]

**********"The Cure"**********

Another pretty straight forward story without much between the lines.

Two points: (view spoiler)[First, when Erik threw the box out of the window, they considered it lost. I would have thought they could have just gone outside and picked it up. Second, this story referenced magic and old rituals without providing any detail. Was there actually no magic at all? Was it possible that Murky Glam was simply a serial killer and made all of those seventh year prophesies come true? He certainly played a roll in Erik's death. Why not the others? (hide spoiler)]

******"The Tree"******

Not much really to comment on in this one.

I'll try and catch up to you this weekend, Ken!

*****"At Simmel Acres Farm"*****

This one missed the mark with me.

(view spoiler)[I thought the description of the enclosed garden was haunting. I certainly wouldn't spend an afternoon there. But outside of the weak tie in with the Hellfire Club, with no further explanation of the incantation spoken or of the shadow appearing in the bedroom or the history of the bust or inscription below it, I felt there was just too much left unknown in this story. I find that unfortunate because I thought Scott did a great job building up to the climax of the story. (hide spoiler)]

Discussion of "The Cure".

(view spoiler)[I found this to be well written and fairly effective, as one would expect from Scott, even if it's not quite up to the standard set by "Celui-là". I found the opening section, with its references to unspeakable rites in the Arctic waste, more reminiscent of Lovecraft than of James (although I'd be surprised if Scott had ever read anything by HPL).

The use of Murky Glam somewhat dates the story and might well make a modern reader uncomfortable. Our narrator, Spud, seems to both fear and dislike Glam. Given the manner in which events unfold, one suspects that at some level Spud (and the author) subscribe to the belief that "village idiots" such as Glam are somehow or other more open to events taking place in the spirit realm (the mentally ill were once said to be "touched by God"), thus Glam's seeming ability to communicate with Erik, who is similarly susceptible to this spirt plane by virtue of his prior experiences in the North.

We never quite learn what those experiences were (which is okay), although one presumes that they are somehow tied to the events at the barrow given that at story's end Erik is once again in possession of the contents of the box (which he had taken from the barrow).

My only other observation is an obvious one — that "The Cure" is yet another story that revolves around one of the author's obsessions, i.e., human sacrifice. (hide spoiler)]

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Discussion of "The Tree" and "At Simmel Acres Farm".

These are — in my opinion, of course — relatively weak stories, although for perhaps different reasons.

(view spoiler)["The Tree" strikes me almost as a draft of a story rather than a full-fleshed piece. Scott quickly sketches a tale in which Carstair's life/soul is somehow inextricably intertwined with that of an ash tree. We don't know quite how this happens (fine with me), but neither are we really provided with much background on why this happens (less fine with me). Carstairs at one point tells his wife that "ash trees were the special property of witches". Certainly this made me reflect on a similar association found in James' "The Ash-Tree" (1904), but to be quite honest I expected a teensie bit more from Scott in the way of an historical underpinning for the possession. And I don't think the story is particularly well served by its somewhat abrupt ending.

✭✭½

I think we are sorta on the page page, Ken, with "At Simmel Acres Farm". It's a story that starts out quite well and, like you, I think Scott's description of the setting constituted a promising start. And then it all sort of falls apart. I don't think the problem is too little in the way of explanation (although some additional detail certainly wouldn't have hurt). For me, the writing doesn't spark that sort of frission I feel with a good ghost story. For example, the passages in which Markham succumbs to the influence of the site aren't particularly well written or effective; and the story's coda, in which our narrator races to learn the secret of the evil statue and the Markham family relation to it, seems confusing and is totally lacking in any kind of real suspense.

✭½ (hide spoiler)]

*****"Will Ye No' Come Back Again?"*****

I'm not sure I got this one. In fact, I thought I missed it so badly that I went back and read it twice.

(view spoiler)[So, was the ghost that Annis was hearing and seeing really just Annis in a previous life? (hide spoiler)]

*****"The Old Lady"*****

(view spoiler)[Again with the human sacrifice. Scott certainly seemed taken with the concept.

I found the climax of this story much like I found the climaxes of many in this collection, somewhat lacking.

Conal obviously played a very important part in the finale but there was no explanation at all of his role nor was there any indications leading up to the climax of the plan that our protagonists had in place.

I think that severely damaged a story that was pretty good up to that point. (hide spoiler)]

In summary:

This is a more obscure collection of classic horror stories. It is a must read for fans of the genre but it lacks the punch or staying power of other classics like M.R. James, explaining its relative obscurity.


3 1/2 STARS


I'm glad I read these. I would never have even heard of Eleanor Scott if not for this thread! THANKS!

Discussion of " 'Will Ye No' Come Back Again?' " and "The Old Lady".

I didn't find either of these stories completely successful, but each was, in its own way, worth the re-reading. I would start off by stating as an opinion that both are better "stories" than they are "ghost stories", by which I mean to say that the character studies they present the reader are more interesting by far than any supernatural elements they contain. This may be because, as pointed out by Richard Dalby in his introduction, the two main characters, Honor Yorke and Annis Brecke, are probably thinly disguised versions of the author. Both are, for the time, emancipated and highly educated. I think for that reason, they come off as more three-dimensional than some of Scott's other characters.

(view spoiler)[" 'Will Ye No' Come Back Again?' " is a sort of quiet story of "possession" (if that's the correct word here) in which our protagonist (Breck) finally comes to share the thoughts of the house's former female occupant. The story is firmly embedded in a background involving the circumscribed role of women in early 20th century Great Britain. The reader senses a barely restrained bitterness both in the thoughts directly expressed by Breck and also by the third person narrator when discussing the restrictions under which women operated, the double standard applied to their actions in the economic sphere, and to men in general. If by the story's end, Breck is possessed by her forerunner, one feels it's not an unwilling possession, but rather one which Breck's own background and demeanor have prepared her for.

✭✭✭½

"The Old Lady" is yet another story that circles the author's obsession with human sacrifice. When considered solely as a supernatural story it reminds me a little of M. R. James's "Lost Hearts" (given the focus on sacrifice of the young). But, to be frank, it doesn't work nearly as well on this level as the James story, in part for the reason already discussed by Ken. The story's resolution depends heavily on the actions of a third party, the narrator's brother, who (amazingly) never even appears on stage! Instead, Scott sort of waves her hands and the story is suddenly over. The character of the Adela's guardian (the old lady of the title) and her relationship with her ward are what partly redeem the tale. As Scott describes the old lady, who Yorke initially perceives at different points in time as either sweet and reasonable or loathsome, it's hard not to think of Scott's later novel, Puss in the Corner (1934). That book (summarized by Dalby) is concerned with the relationship between two sisters and their widowed mother. According to Dalby, this mother presents herself to the outside world as frail and ethereal, while with her daughters she acts in selfish way designed solely to promote her own ends. It's tempting to wonder about the dynamics of Scott's relationship with her own mother.

✭✭½ (hide spoiler)]

I think Scott's admirers are prone to compare her work to that of the great M. R. James and, to be honest, I see in myself that same tendency. And yet, when I step back and consider her stories in a more gestalt fashion, the stylistic and thematic differences far outweigh any similarities and that leads me to wonder whether such comparisons do the author any favors.

Considering the collection as a whole, I would opine that "Celui-là" alone makes it worth the price of admission. But there are other fine stories to read in addition — including "Randalls Round" (the title story), "The Twelve Apostles", and " 'Will Ye No' Come Back Again?' "

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Canavan wrote: "Discussion of " 'Will Ye No' Come Back Again?' " and "The Old Lady".

I didn't find either of these stories completely successful, but each was, in its own way, worth the re-reading. I would start ..."

(view spoiler)["(Breck) finally comes to share the thoughts of the house's former female occupant".....that makes better sense than what I was thinking. (hide spoiler)]