Dreamspinner Press discussion

I wonder what your opinion as writers or readers is regarding the main plot of a MM romance. Is the relationship the main plot or should there be a different main plot for which the relationship runs close to?

For example - A crime thriller plot where the detective becomes involved with the suspect? So in this example the solving of the case would be the main plot and the involvement with the suspect comes as a means to solve the case.

What are you thoughts generally on relationship/plot ratio in MM novels?

I am only a reader. Yet when I am reading a MM-Romance book I look how it was listed.
If it is listed as a MM Romance first and foremost than I expect that the 'romance' plot will be the main focus if not the sole focus of the story, and I am less likely to read it.

However IF a MM Romance has listed itself as a dual genre then I expect to see two fully developed plots.

There are two reasons that I have stopped reading as much MM Romance as I once had.
The first was because the sex was just over the top in quantity and brutality. I could go on a rant about that but it would not be relevant to your question.
The second is that every story line started looking like the rest.
No matter if a book was listed as Science Fiction, Crime, Mystery, Paranormal it was pretty much the same cookie cutter pattern.

Guy meets guy, guy hooks up with guy (repeat x3), any secondary genre elements to the story get quickly swept under the run and forgotten about, and we end with a HEA or HFN endings.

Yawn
I look for (and beg for) other genres that 'happen to have gay characters', meaning I want a strong storyline. I want a solid crime mystery, or a science fiction plot which involves some serious world building and something for my mind to puzzle over. I want to see LGBT characters treated like regular individuals with at least some control over their sexual side.
Hmm I am on a rant again, Sorry my bad.
Cut to the short answer, if you are going to give your book two genres (Romance + crime, science fiction, paranormal, urban fantasy and so on) Develop both plots equally. Run them simultaneously. Give equal time and attention to each plots resolution. And if you succeed at that, message me because I'll want to read it. :-)

Long time reader and HUGE fan of Dreamspinner's work here - That said, for me personally, it depends on the genre I think. Mostly though, I prefer the romance to be the secondary plot. I like it when the circumstances of the story are what bring the characters together, and it being the struggle to overcome those circumstances (solving a mystery, stopping a war, overcoming an illness or some other challenge, defeating an evil wizard kinda thing) that brings the character's together. Those are the stories that really grip me.

That said, I still love m/m stories that are focused on the romance. But if I have to pick one or the other, I will definitely go for stories with romance as the secondary plot.

Either way, the most important thing is that the characters are well developed and engaging, and respond in believably ways. And for F**** SAKE, no more stories where the main conflict is the HUGE MISUNDERSTANDING where a five minute conversation would have nulled the entire conflict.

Just my two cents. =)

Hey Tammy K that was a great reply thanks. What you describe wanting is what I have been working on. I have three novels in progress (2 are just about finished) where the plot involves gay characters who come together as a result of the storyline. There is sex, but it is used to further the characters relationship/learning etc. But predominantly the main plot is what drives the story. I have one HAE, one HFN, and another which is bittersweet. The bittersweet one leads to a sequel which I have started.

I would love to have a beta reader and am almost ready to give one up for review if you are interested. It is a thriller of 80,000 words, contains one violent scene and a few deaths, but a relationship between the two MC's develops over the story.

Robdemanc wrote: "I wonder what your opinion as writers or readers is regarding the main plot of a MM romance. Is the relationship the main plot or should there be a different main plot for which the relationship ru..."

If this question was asked in any group I would answer depends, I love books with no romance at all, and very strong plots. But this is the Dreasmpinner Press Group
Any writer submitting will read the first paragraph of Dreamspinner request

" 
Dreamspinner Press seeks gay male romance stories in all genres. While works do not need to be graphic, they must contain a primary or strong secondary romance plotline and focus on the interaction between two or more male characters."

So, as a reader and buying from Dreamspinner for a long time I must say when I buy from them I KNOW there will be romance. The focus is the romance, and IMO a romantic book is not a synonym of weak plot. I read (I loved) also bittersweet stories (it's a Collection) released by Dreamspinner. This means, I don't request a HEA, always... But I want romance. Or I would not buy from Dreamspinner.
That's my modest opinion about it.

Hi Bookwatcher thanks for your comment. I understand Dreamspinner specialises in MM romance and my novels do have a strong MM romance plot but there is also another plot that is behind the meeting/relationship/outcome etc.

Also - do people think it best if the romance/feelings the characters have for each other are implied rather than explicitly stated or talked about. In real life I think people are seldom explicit when it comes to their feelings. Also I think actions say more than the words so the actions of the characters will show the feelings/love with more impact than if the characters are thinking or talking about it.

Robdemanc wrote: "...where the plot involves gay characters who come together as a result of the storyline. There is sex, but it is used to further the characters relationship/learning etc. But predominantly the main plot is what drives the story. ..."

You have my attention.
Can you offer up more of a description on that thriller?

Robdemanc wrote: "... In real life I think people are seldom explicit when it comes to their feelings. Also I think actions say more than the words so the actions of the characters will show the feelings/love with more impact than if the characters are thinking or talking about it. "

I couldn't agree more.

I prefer a plot driven storyline always. That said, the building of a romance can be a superb plot when done well. We have two beings who have a life outside the romance they are working through or towards. That alone can be a fabulous plot, again if done well. Make your reader laugh (I fail at this), make them cry (I excel at this!), make them feel, make them relate. If a book can elicit even a few emotions, and keep the reader reading, then that is a book meant for that reader.

Thankfully everyone loves something different, and chances are, someone out there is writing about it. Personally, I stay away from porn without plot.

Robdemanc wrote: "Hey Tammy K that was a great reply thanks. What you describe wanting is what I have been working on. I have three novels in progress (2 are just about finished) where the plot involves gay characte..."

In the MMRomance group there is a place just for authors looking for beta readers. You might want to try there.

Robdemanc wrote: "In real life I think people are seldom explicit when it comes to their feelings. Also I think actions say more than the words so the actions of the characters will show the feelings/love with more impact than if the characters are thinking or talking about it."

I agree. Real live is very different from books.
But romance is part of the fiction that make this kind of book so famous
Realism is necessary to non fiction.

In fiction, also MM romance, facts and behaves are not exactly like real life. Depends on each reader, obviously, but I'm not in search or realism, in perfect reproductions of real live when I buy a book from Dreamspinner. I have it alread living. I want a book to take me out from real live, to make me smile and dream.
I don't agree it's how a romantic book should be, and respectfully say a book can have exaggerated sappy romance. Many readers of MM want it, and many publishers sell non romantic books, but not Dreamspinner. This is a romantic publisher, and that's what I was trying to say before. This discussion here should take another significance. This is a romantic publisher, specialized in stories with a strong primary or secondary romance. Seems offtopic say here, in this group, a book need more realism and less "romanticism" because real live is not like that. We know it, very well. But we buy from Dreamspinner because we are searching for it. In my personal case, I buy from Dreamspinner when I'm in the mood for "non realistic" romance.

Tammy K - I will message you today with further details.

Bookwatcher - I understand what you mean about not wanting real life, and most fiction books present a version of real life that is out of the ordinary. But I think when a story is too unrealistic it becomes hard to swallow so I try to justify events and situations as much as possible in order to give the impression that it could really happen.

But I know there are works of fiction that are over the top and these are enjoyable too.

Tara wrote: "... everyone loves something different, and chances are, someone out there is writing about it. Personally, I stay away from porn without plot."

Well said.

I follow a couple of authors that write for DreamSpinner Press whom fulfill my expectations/desires for a solid secondary plot in their crossover works.

Not all readers, nor all authors, are the same.
After all, no two loves are ever the same and so I wouldn't expect everyone to have the same understanding/expectation of a 'romance'.

To each their own and may we all follow/ find our own bliss. ♥

This is a really great thread. I struggle with this too. As a Dreamspinner reader and author I believe romance has to be the central focus if you are writing for Dreamspinner. If you are buying from a romance publisher you want romance; however within that constraint, there is still a lot of freedom on how it is done. If you look at the mainstream romance section in any bookstore you will see all types of sub-genres: mystery, thriller, sci-fi, fantasy etc. What they all have in common is the romantic element, but that doesn't mean they are all 100% relationship driven, heavy emotional romance. Ideally the best romances have both external and internal conflict--the ratio of each is flexible.

Many m/m romances are based entirely on internal conflict and seem to feature heavy emotional topics with lots of internal angst, like coming out, discrimination etc.--the focus is on the "m/m" aspect. This is all fine. Sometimes I'm in the mood for this. I've written it myself. Other times I want a story where two people, who just happen to be men, fall in love while battling a Big Bad, and sexuality is not an issue. I think as the genre matures you'll see more focus on the plot and less on the m/m thing. Eventually I would love to not see any gender distinction at all in the romance genre, except that the characters may have different couplings.

Like Robdemanc I'm working on a novel that's only about 50% romance; the other half is mystery. The good thing is there is room for both.

Oh, and to respond to the comment "Also I think actions say more than the words so the actions of the characters will show the feelings/love with more impact than if the characters are thinking or talking about it" I wholeheartedly agree. Any good author knows showing is better than telling. :)

Hi Chris. Interesting thoughts in your comment. I hope readers are more inclined to go for the novels where there is more to it that the romance. I feel my stories have the romance between the two leads but the resulting relationship has been driven by the main plot.

I too would like to see less distinction between sexualities in these novels. I liked the way Lover At Last told the story of the two male vampires finally getting together after what seemed like an age of unrequited love. So it would be good if more mainstream novels incorporate MM romance.

Chris wrote: "This is a really great thread. I struggle with this too. As a Dreamspinner reader and author I believe romance has to be the central focus if you are writing for Dreamspinner. If you are buying fro..."

*Claps* Spot on!