Classical Conversations discussion

Anyone been reading The Question in preparation for the upcoming Parent Practicums? What's your favorite chapter?

I've especially enjoyed the chapter on math. Since we just practiced "playing with numbers" at last year's Practicum, Leigh's examples applying the 5 common topics to math were that much more vivid. I also felt like seeing "relationship" and "circumstance" from a math perspective helped drive the distinctions between the two topics home. I found myself a little confused by those two topics in earlier chapters.

I enjoyed the math chapter. We had to wrestle so much to think about math in a different way that I loved seeing the conversation fleshed out. I've been trying very hard to ask a lot of questions in my math class and guide that seminar hour as a discussion.

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Words are processed, weighed, and analyzed through other words...Words allow us to build great cities, negotiate peace between countries, and share a pleasant meal with friends and family. p. 6

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Robert Farrar Capon, in The Supper of the Lamb, tells us that our response to "loveliness is not always delight: It is far more often than it should be, boredom. And that is not only odd, it is tragic; for boredom is not neutral-- it is the fertilizing principle of unloveliness". p. 9

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A classically trained student will have the skill needed to read the original text, ask and find answers to her own questions, and clearly present her findings to her audience in a meaningful manner. By contrast, modern high schools emphasize a survey of textbooks in which the authors trivialize history and literature, first, by teaching through the excerpts and summaries rather than original documents, and second, by reducing their ideas to multiple-choice answers on a test. p.13

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[T]he basic objective of the logic stage of education should be to prepare both teacher and student "to detect fallacy, slipshod reasoning, ambiguity, irrelevance, and redundancy, and to pounce upon then like rats." Dorothy Sayers as quoted in The Question, p. 19

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"The novice is thereby led through the bracken of his assumptions and biases to the clear light of knowledge. The teacher holds himself responsible for all words and ideas he utters, pressing him to define them with greater exactitude. Just what do we mean by Justice, Freedom, Courage, Virtue? Are they achievable in this life? Or are they beyond the grasp of even the most righteous? And this method remains a cardinal means of testing intellectual mettle." Tracy Lee Simmons as quoted in The Question, p. 20-21

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You are better and braver and less helpless when you realize you ought to ask questions than you were when you had indulged in the idle fancy that there was no knowing and no use in seeing to know what you did not know. p.25

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"We plant, and even weed, a small garden patch of the mind when we compose in this taut, conscious way, placing words and clauses with the same care we might expend on planting delicate seeds or transplanting mature stalks." Tracy Lee Simmons as quoted in The Question, p. 35

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I am okay with incorrect answers; I have an eternity in which to correct my misconceptions, but my soul will wither if I have no questions. p. 37

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And all of us technocrats would have no idea that the color of the water means anything, as we are locked up in large, windowless classrooms when we study natural science. p. 39

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We forget that it is not safe inside the house, either, if we are killing their spirit of inquiry. There is a reason zombies dominate popular culture. We see them and know that they are us. p. 40.

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We must learn to separate our self-worth and sense of accomplishment (as well as that of our children) from the numerical values of a standardized test score. p. 42

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Institutionalized school has taught us to seek answers in order to get the lesson over with rather than to inspire more questions and extend the curiosity of the students. p. 43

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"Gentlemen, you place man a little higher than a tadpole. I hold with the ancient singer, 'thou has made him a little lower than the angels'" (Psalm 8:5) Thomas Carlyle as quoted in The Question, p. 46

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Maybe we ask the wrong questions about education and child-rearing because we assume children were meant to sit in buildings all day-- and now in front of a computer screen instead of a real person. p. 51

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Currently, our college graduates are under-employed or unemployed. If they are employed, they listen to music that tells them "It's Five O'Clock Somewhere." In other words, they can't wait to escape this job for which they studied so hard and paid so much. Then we repeat the cycle. Do your schoolwork, get a good job, and you too can be like me and wish you had a different life. Are we sure this is the measure we want for success? p.55

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I love my children. Therefore, I declare that they are heirs to a kingdom, servants to the people, and brothers of the King's Son...I declare that for eternity they will pursue beauty, goodness, and truth. p. 57

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Although it may be a lost idea in our culture, this is the purpose of adolescence: to practice becoming an adult. Our loss of this mission can be reflected in simple statements such as, "I need to find some books to help me raise obedient children." Instead, we should say, "I need to find some books to help me raise wise adults." p. 65

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So, although we do not talk as loudly about the imagination as we do about critical thinking skills, it is just as essential a faculty to exercise as critical thinking. A good leader must have both: the ability to reason through sound arguments and the ability to imagine a different way of being and feeling. p. 75

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Reading literature also builds community. As parents and teachers, we can form intimate bonds with children by loving the books they love and by listening carefully to their ideas. p. 76

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...when you or your child edits his writing, you are indicating how much confidence you have in his potential. p. 79

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"When it comes to formulating a proposition, form comes first; forms are generative not of specific meanings, but of the very possibility of meaning." Stanley Fish as quoted in The Question, p. 82

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Students who learn to write in an organized, structured way will be able to make significant contributions to their culture, civilization, and country. p. 92

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Students who can write and read well will also reap the rewards of living richly knowledgeable, imaginative, and creative lives. p. 92

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This love of the deeper magic, the mystery behind thought, the metaphysics that informs functionality, is what drives me to study math. The mathematician regularly dwells in the abstract and therefore has the privilege of seeing more of the unseen. p. 95

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Unfortunately, very few of us are fluent in mathematics ourselves, so we do not raise children to be naturally bilingual in mathematics. p. 96

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Teachable math moments occur when the child, rather than the author or the parent, has a question. When that happens, drop everything and use that time to fall in love with math with your child. p. 99

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I solve math equations because they balance, because they give us a mystery to talk about, and because I am a social creature who reflects our Creator. I cannot stop talking about math, because it is so beautiful. p. 110

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When you [teach dialectically], you show your student that knowledge is possible, that education is meaningful, and that life is livable. p. 125

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I encourage parents to think of logic studies as being rated PG: Parental Guidance expected. p.129

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The first law [of logic] teaches logicians to deal with absolute truth, rather than relativity. p. 138

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The second law of logic teaches that there is an essential unity in Creation, reflecting the unity of the Creator, so when you teach your children this law, you are affirming that they have a nature to be honored. p. 138

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The third law [of logic] teaches your children the value of consistent actions and a consistent worldview. p. 138

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"The true rhetorician employs memory...strives to demonstrate that we live in continuity with those who have gone before us, who also knew suffering, and that therefore there is reason to have courage and hope even when things seem at their worst." Vigen Guroian as quoted in The Question, p. 143.

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A lack of heroes not only leads to a lack of models to imitate but also to a void in one's life that must be filled. Humans, by definition, are created in the image of God to be imitators. Paul tells the Corinthians to imitate him as he imitates Christ. Nature abhors a vacuum; the very definition of being human means our humanity will abhor a vacuum of heroes. If we do not move our children to discover heroes to imitate, they will invent their own. That is what the cultural icons of our day have become. p. 160

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We forget that the foundation of scientific thought is focusing and organized thinking: using one's brain the way it was designed to be used. p. 163

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In science, we help our students build on what is natural. We do this by channeling their natural questioning tendencies in such a way that the questions become increasingly more specific and are applied to increasingly more complex aspects of the natural world. p. 170

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Each question answered generates more and more questions. That's what should make science so compelling: the adventure never has to end. p. 174

Wendy wrote: "Quote from The Question:
And all of us technocrats would have no idea that the color of the water means anything, as we are locked up in large, windowless classrooms when we study natural science. ..."

This reminds me of something I heard during my visit to St. John's College last weekend. Our tour guide pointed out a magnolia tree in the Quad, and told us that you will often find students climbing it throughout the day, because during one of the science seminars the students are required to climb the magnolia tree and examine the foliage at the top and compare it to the foliage at the bottom. They are studying nature in nature. :)

Wendy wrote: "Quote from The Question:
The second law of logic teaches that there is an essential unity in Creation, reflecting the unity of the Creator, so when you teach your children this law, you are affirmi..."

I just wrote in my book today, underlining communication - and not just venting: if we aren't helping our children - and ourselves - create concise, meaningful artifacts I.e.,letters, speeches, presentations, essays, then we are not glorifying the Unifying Principal, Jesus.

In the "Science" chapter, Leigh's example of Kepler was striking. Considering the question of "Circumstance", Kepler had to ask himself what was possible/impossible about Mars' orbit. He had to wonder if something besides a circular orbit was possible before he could investigate whether or not it was reality. He also had to assume it was possible and that he might be wrong about that non-circular possibility at the same time.

I tend to spend more time in the humanities than the sciences, using those terms loosely, so my implementation of the tools of invention tends to focus on characters and authors; settings and story lines. "The Question" is brilliant in that it unfolds all the subjects through the same five questions, so that no matter the propensities of the given reader, that reader can see the tools applied across the entire scope of all 7 Liberal Arts and their subsidiaries. Then we can work off of those subjects that we spend more time in to see how the dialectic is practiced in the other subjects where we are not as prone to dwell.

Kepler didn't have one hardbound novel to analyze, but he did have one cosmos, written by one Author. His genius was asking if something other than the current interpretation of the cosmos might have been possible in order to make the "story" coherent. So he proposed that perhaps the circles were squished into ellipses. Then he was able to set up the experiment, then do the math to see if he was right. Amazing.

I wish I could like comments in this discussion. You all are making such good observations.

That is so awesome, Marc! And look at you in the end bringing it back to "One cosmos, written by one Author." - your attention to the humanities helps you make sense of a science you do not attend to as much. That is so wonderful - and still just as indicative of the Unifying Principal. A math and science person could do the same with literature and philosophy if they tried. There is a play I caught pieces of online where Einstein and Mozart race to write something beautiful (or maybe it was an artist) and Einstein writes a mathematical equation as his "art".

I also love that The Question basically does the mimetic sequence in giving us multiple "types," examples, of using the five common topics so we can see it used and then gain our own insights into doing so ourselves. We are not only equipped but inspired to try them out for ourselves in every arena.

I do love your idea about Kepler not having that "one" hard-bound novel, etc... but you know - if he had, what a loss for the ages right?? How much INSIGHT and revelation are we losing because of the over abundance of information at our fingertips?? How many people clicked a link about the blood moon last night, rather than go outside and WITNESS it!!??? The couple of things I read/clicked did not tell me the beautiful full mood would be in the constellation of Virgo right on the star Spika, with Mars HUGE and red and bright right next to it! It's not like it was unknown to anyone, but these sites were just giving the plain "information".

I stayed up, went out and beheld! I was in AWE. It was so beautifully, breath-taking! And I stood there perceiving these extra events that were not made known to me by man. Now, I had to previously know where/what Virgo is and where/what Mars would look like - there is a time and place for informative study. But at some point you have to get away from information and observe, behold, ask the Author - what did you mean by this? Or, what is this? And he is SO happy to tell you - George Washington Carver is a fantastic example of this as well.

I agree with Matt, but with more extraneous words, "Like"!

While reading the "Reading" & "Writing" chapters this morning, I see that I have been neglecting the dialectical aspects of both in recent days. In the info meetings that I have been leading, while introducing the Trivium as arts, I have been focusing on the external conversational aspects of Dialectic. I have been wanting to emphasize 'community' and the necessity of other people to be present in order for us/our students to be able to mature in the art of dialectic. While I don't disagree with myself that community is vitally important for final maturation, I have been neglecting to recognize the internal dialectic that takes place when one thoughtfully reads and writes.

If we are good readers, then we are always asking questions of the text. Neil Postman is in one sense right that we must suspend judgement until the end of the argument in order to judge rightly. I've heard this called "being acedemically honest" with the text. But at the same time, words only have meaning as they are sifted and sorted through the reader's present paradigm of the world. Even one who is attempting to be 'academically honest' must recognize his present personal biases. As a reader, I am judging every sentence while I am suspending judgment of the entire argument. This is deeply dialectical.

Concerning community, reading never happens alone, even if you're by yourself, because the author is represented in the text. So, there are two present, every time you read.

In like manner, a good writer is attempting to sift and sort his own thoughts. If a writer is always concerned with his audience, then there is another imaginary person with every writer. An assertion always requires a consideration of possible refutations. This allows the writer to effectively communicate with the future reader, who is hopefully attempting to be academically honest.

I still think I'm right that maturity in the dialectic arts will come through community conversations, but I think I have been poorly-rounded in my presentation of the art of dialectic in my info meetings. Good reading and good writing are deeply dialectical. Perhaps good reading and writing are the grammar stages of the art of dialectic. The next two stages require real people.

Marc, you are right. A dialectic can take place both in community or between a reader and an author through a book. It depends what your audience needs, whether you need mention both. Most homeschooling families are already comfortable with the idea of their child learning alone with a book, it's the community aspect they neglect.

Additionally, even though we do engage in dialectic while reading, many of us (me, for sure!) are dissatisfied with that alone and want to then engage in dialectic in community about that which I engaged in dialectic with the author. Reminds me of this guy who was at Practicum Speaker training. He'd read some Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy then had to tell everyone else about it. Then they had to tell me about it! I love the dialectic!

You're right, Matt. We need to get a "like" button.

I've heard about that guy quoting Rosenstock-Huessy. I didn't know that you had heard about it though. Your spies are everywhere.

I think the grammar-learning could go either way. Some people are more naturally inclinded to inward dialogue and make great models for outward discussion. Often at the ChA & B levels - even into I and II they need a model of dialectic discussion that they then have the opportunity to internalize.

I agree that either way, eventually you have a desire to share! God made us communal. Some people struggle in group discussion only because they don't have the tools. They have thoughts and ideas, but aren't natural at expressing them. What a wonderful way for them to learn "how" to discuss or share their internal ideas. And how vastly important. It could make the difference in an interview, a societal debate, or an eternal decision.

True, all very true, Cheryl!