Reading the Chunksters discussion

Two words define the books we are discussing this week: spiritual and mundane, and both complement each other.

Books VII is mostly dedicated to questions of spirituality and organized religion and potentially expresses Hugo's evolving views on religion.

1. After describing the life in the convent, he openly criticizes the role of monasteries in the nineteenth century. He states that they were necessary centuries ago as centers of learning and strongholds against certain natural disasters and charitable centers, but at the time of the novel they were mostly atavistic and obsolete. Do you agree with his interpretation?

2. In one of his contemplations about religion, he states that we should rid God of worms. Because there are different translations, the wording might be slightly different, but I hope you understand what lines I am talking about. How do you understand the meaning of this phrase? Why should something as perfect as God/concept of God be purified?

3. Hugo is also quite unifying and anti sectarian when it comes to religion in general as he views churches and denominations as segregating rather than unifying. Do you accept his ideas?

4. He compares life in the convent to the one in the prison. If you agree with this statement, how far are you with Hugo?

5. Book VIII is quite lighthearted in its tone and atmosphere even if it deals with the death of one of the nuns, the cemetery, and the dangerous experience. Both Valjean and Fauchelevent lie to secure a safe exit and entrance for Valjean. Is it the so called 'white lie'? Is it forgivable?

6. Despite the slightly different mode of the book, Valjean experienced one of the biggest fears in his life. Do you think making him faint was a easy decision for Hugo? Was it a literary trick or a more sinister foreshadowing?

7. Fauchelevent had to be really inventive trying to save Valjean. Is his act a crime or an example of resourcefulness?

8. How long do you think Valjean and Cosette will stay in the monastery? Is it a secure place for them?

I finished last night. I confess to having skimmed most of Book VII. As an atheist, the spiritual discussion didn't appeal to me. I do think religions, especially the many versions of Christianity, should be more accepting of one another so I am with Hugo on that.

As for the convent/monastery vs. prison question, the obvious difference is one life is chosen while the other isn't. Once inside there probably wasn't much difference, though I'm assuming you could leave the convent life if you really wanted to.

Fauchelevent showed resourcefulness. It's interesting that he didn't question why Valjean (or M. Madeleine to him) was in the situation he was in. He simply looked at it as repaying the favor. Valjean saved his life, and that's what mattered to him.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.

I understand how you feel, Kathy. It might be challenging for atheists and agnostics. I am a humanist and a borderline agnostic/atheist, but religion has always fascinated me. I do understand the moral imperative of religion, and I try to follow the messages of peace and love, but this is as far as it goes.

On the other hand, I like how he encourages people of different faiths and denominations to be together. He was going through a serious faith crisis at this moment, and you can see how he gravitates from conventional religion to a more huministic approach.

And you are absolutely right about Fauchelevent. He never questions Valjean's motives; he wanted to save his savior.

I actually found the description of the convent and his views on it rather interesting. I come from a Protestant Christian perspective, so the Catholic cloister is beyond my personal experience, but the spiritual ideas are similar. In the Protestant view (including multiple denominations here) there is not this understanding of doing penance or being more holy by starving oneself or spending excess hours in prayer before a post, etc; the thought is that Christ has already done this FOR us, therefore we can live abundantly in joy, while still following the moral law laid out before us. Hugo seems to be taking an interesting middle ground, in that he respects what the convent is trying to do, but also pointing out some of the more archaic attributes and how it dies out over time because it just isn't able to recruit. He sees Fauchelevant as more "Christian" in that he does what is right for a friend who once helped him and saved his life. He is doing what is right in the eyes of God, even if it isn't in the eyes of man or even the convent. The same with Valjean: he is hiding from the police, trying to live a new life and care for someone who truly needs him, which is a very Christian attitude, yet society will not allow him to do so. Very interesting juxtaposition.

The grave scene really made me think of a faced-paced Bond-type film. How will he escape? We know he will, because he's the "good guy" but how will it be accomplished? I love that Hugo spatters these little scenes throughout the story :)

Alana wrote: "He sees Fauchelevant as more "Christian" in that he does what is right for a friend who once helped him and saved his life. He is doing what is right in the eyes of God, even if it isn't in the eyes of man or even the convent. The same with Valjean: he is hiding from the police, trying to live a new life and care for someone who truly needs him, which is a very Christian attitude, yet society will not allow him to do so. Very interesting juxtaposition."

A good point, Alana. Fauchelevant undoubtedly violated the rules of the convent, but he might see 'bigger' rules in actions: he should save the man who once gave him another chance. Besides, he was violating the rules of the religious rigorous institution; it seemed like 'holiness' was not defined by the rules of the convent, but by the rules of decency and respect.

I think it ties in with the Bishop of Digne as well. There are people who see the bigger picture and do the right thing, the "Christian" thing, and there are those who simply follow church rules. Or I should say captial C - Church rules.

YOu are right - the Bishop was the one who saw the bigger picture, and his humanism was his driving force. The same force drives Jean Valjean and at this point Fauchelevant.

Sorry, I'm finally getting a chance to catch up on posting. Like Kathy, I also found myself skimming much of Book VII. My initial thought about the difference between the prison and convent was also that one is chosen and the other is not. But, if you commit a crime and you know there is a prison sentence, then in a way you ARE choosing to go to prison. However, in Jean Valjean's case, is going to prison for 5 years for stealing a loaf of bread really an appropriate sentence? Did he have a choice? He was trying to feed his family - he was in a difficult situation.

And then to Book VIII - I loved this section! I knew that Jean Valjean would be saved from the coffin, but I really was anxious to figure out how Fauchelevent was going to pull the rabbit out of the hat. I also liked how Fauchelevent asked no questions of Jean Valjean - he was going to save his life just as Jean Valjean had done for him.

Book VIII was absolutely fabulous. We all knew that the mission would be accomplished, but we never knew how. The book kept me guessing and jittery all the time

Like Kathy, I'm an atheist and don't find religion particularly interesting, so I ended up skimming parts of book VII too. I loved this quote, though: “Superstition, bigotry and prejudice, ghosts though they are, cling tenaciously to life; they are shades armed with tooth and claw. They must be grappled with unceasingly, for it is a fateful part of human destiny that it is condemned to wage perpetual war against ghosts. A shade is not easily taken by the throat and destroyed.”

Role of monasteries- They seem rather pointless when education is available from more secular sources and many of their other roles have been taken over by the government or charitable organizations (secular or religious).

Sects unifying vs. segregating- I would have to agree with Hugo's assessment that they are segregating. Sectarian strife has been a problem throughout the history of Christianity, with the severity of the conflicts varying quite dramatically.

The convent does sound like a prison to me, but I'm not sympathetic to that life to begin with.

I read most of Cosette today, but I ran out of steam before getting to Book VIII. Maybe I'll be ready to comment on it tomorrow. I'm glad to see other people really liked that section.

Anne wrote: "Like Kathy, I'm an atheist and don't find religion particularly interesting, so I ended up skimming parts of book VII too. I loved this quote, though: “Superstition, bigotry and prejudice, ghosts ..."

Glad you're catching up! I've been reading your updates. I also liked the quote you posted here.

That quote really struck a chord with me. It actually ties nicely into a discussion I had yesterday morning. A woman was denying some very mainstream scientific theories because they made her feel "icky" (her words). I think you can guess which theories those might be. She became very obstinate when the flaws in her reasoning were pointed out, and she kept insisting that her opinions were just as valid as those of the millions of scientists who disagreed with her. Ugh!

I did finish book VIII last night. It was very entertaining and suspenseful. You knew he would escape, but the how was very much up in the air. I consider Fauchelevent's actions to have been resourceful and moral. He did it for the right reasons (to help a good man), and he did not harm anyone (other than possibly the new gravedigger, and even that did not cause any permanent harm). I'm not sure how long they will stay there, but it is a good hiding place.

Anne wrote: " A woman was denying some very mainstream scientific theories because they made her feel "icky" (her words). I think you can guess which theories those might be. She became very obstinate when the flaws in her reasoning were pointed out, and she kept insisting that her opinions were just as valid as those of the millions of scientists who disagreed with her. Ugh!"

Ugh indeed! Well, being a scientist myself, I have a very low tolerance for such people.

Yes, I loved the escape scene! I was really impressed with Fauchelevent's quick thinking.

Linda wrote: "Ugh indeed! Well, being a scientist myself, I have a very low tolerance for such people."

I'm an engineer, so I'm right there with you. I find that kind of behavior obnoxious at the best of times.

Linda wrote: "Yes, I loved the escape scene! I was really impressed with Fauchelevent's quick thinking."
Me too :)

Like many others, I didn't read book VII very carefully, and I loved VIII. Reading book VII, mostly I was thinking "blah blah blah blah blah". It just didn't serve to move the story forward for me. At least book VI from the previous section introduced some of the practices and people so that we can understand the nuns better, but this section just seemed to be Hugo ranting and making his beliefs known.

I find it odd that Fauchelevent was capable of "quick thinking" (as Linda wrote above) when it came down to it, but Valjean had to lead him quite directly to the idea of escaping in the coffin in the first place. As soon as the Mother told the story of having this extra coffin I immediately thought "perfect! an escape route for Valjean!" but Fauchelevent didn't understand at first, even when Valjean was trying to lead him to this idea.

I am very glad that (at least for now) they are allowing Cosette the one hour of free time to go and visit with Valjean and Fauchelevent. It seems the other girls have to avoid men like the plague, so I had expected they would not allow her to see him. Now that she is "growing up" as the last sentence of the chapter states, I wonder if they will try to force her to stay as a nun and no longer see her benefactor.

I agree - book VIII was absolutely breathtaking, and the action was very pacy but also evenly paced.

And yes, Hugo likes giving us his 'blah, blah, blah' moments :-)