Catholic Thought discussion

As we see Rome building its strength in chapter eleven, having a clear focus on their code of conduct allowed them to overcome enemies who frequently outnumbered them. They did not have a Christian code but did have a warrior’s code of honor that men in all of the ranks followed. This description of honor was clearly the mark that allowed them to be victorious no matter what the odds. Later in chapter twelve we see that losing sight of this code of conduct and forsaking their discipline sets the decline in motion. The greed and back stabbing that pushed their code of conduct to the trash heap set the stage for Rome to begin the downward spiral that would end in disaster.

Dr. Carroll goes on to describe the profaning of the temple by Antiochus IV, he had the Temple converted to a pagan hall. On December 25, 167 B.C. he had a pig sacrificed on the alter in the temple. I wish he had gone on to say more about the selection of the date; why December 25th?

Dr. Carroll also recounts the heroic epic of the Maccabees. The five brothers are all killed for refusing to eat pork. None of them waivered, they honored their commitment to God. Their line continued and apparently a Jewish group splintered off from a high priest within the Maccabee family, perhaps John Hyreanus, to form a counter-Israel group at Qumran. They felt that the Temple priesthood had lost their calling and wanted a stricter following of the law of Moses to be started so the moved to the area around the Dead Sea.

I was also surprised to see the first day of the year being set as January 1 back in the year of 45 B.C. and the Julian calendar remaining in place until 1582 A.D.

I thought chapters eleven and twelve were very interesting. I did not know that “The Hasidim” (pg. 254) meant “The Pure”. So perhaps this is where the term “Hasidic Jew” (orthodox?) originated from?

In regard to the December 25th defilement of the temple (pg. 236), I did some research on the internet and apparently the ancient Greeks and Romans usually celebrated the birth of their gods around the time of the winter solstice (December 21st). Ancient astronomers first noticed that the days were getting shorter around December 25th and due to the shortened days the people feared that their gods were deserting them. They did not have an exact date for the solstice so they used December 25th as that date. So when an idol (Dr. Carroll suggests it was Jupiter Olympus) was placed in the temple on December 25th it was in celebration of his birth or rebirth and the celebration was also meant to appease the gods. Although Jupiter is a Roman god (he is the equivalent of the Greek god Zeus), I am not sure why Antiochus IV a Seleucid (Greek) would identify himself with a Roman God.

Also, it seems like we have a lot of “firsts” in these two chapters:

The first religious persecution of the Jews by Antiochus IV
The first political parties in Rome, the Optimates and the Populares
The first large scale forced religious conversion to Judaism in Edom instituted by John Hyrcanus
The first Jewish festival of Hanukkah
The first time the office of High Priest was united with that of ruler by John Hyrcanus
The first Jewish monastic community formed in Qumran
Rome as a protector of the Jewish people

I am sure that there are other “firsts” which I failed to mention, but it is interesting to read about these first events and what the Jewish people were experiencing so close to the coming of Christ.

Susan Margaret wrote: "I thought chapters eleven and twelve were very interesting. I did not know that “The Hasidim” (pg. 254) meant “The Pure”. So perhaps this is where the term “Hasidic Jew” (orthodox?) originated from..."

Thanks for the additional input. These facts and bits of information greatly increase the joy of reading with others.

Mike wrote: "These facts and bits of information greatly increase the joy of reading with others..."

You are welcome Mike. I agree, the input from fellow members makes our reading fun and interesting. The more that participate the merrier!

I'm sorry it's taken me awhile to chime in. It's been a weird week. Thank you Susan Margaret for that background research. I was familiar with the Winter Solstice and I think your question about origin of Hasidic Jew is correct.

It is odd that they worshipped a Roman god. For me, Chapter 11 was enlightening and frustrating, as usual. LOL. Those Jews are painful to read about. It seems like things can only go along smoothly for so long.

I loved the story about the drawing of the circle in the sand for Antiochus by the Roman. I wondered if this wasn't the origin of the phrase....crossing the line in the sand?

The Maccabees were fun to read about. They remind me of a family of New Yorkers. :-) And how frustrating to see the Temple turned inside out, yet again.



There was so much corruption with all of these rulers. I'm probably going to have to reread a few chapters to really solidify the details in my head, but things are really coming together for me.

Still a bit more to go in Chapter 11. I'll tune back in when I'm farther along. :-)

Susan Margaret wrote: "I thought chapters eleven and twelve were very interesting. I did not know that “The Hasidim” (pg. 254) meant “The Pure”. So perhaps this is where the term “Hasidic Jew” (orthodox?) originated from..."

Thank you Susan Margaret. It’s hard to keep your head above water in the thick of things when the author covers a century in a dozen pages or less. Take the coverage of India a couple of chapters back (Chapter 7). I realize the subject at hand is not ancient world history. I only marvel at the kind of short nutshell summaries Mr. Carroll provides. I certainly hope we are led in the right direction. “No Indian writing of any kind, earlier than about 250 BC survives;” Mr. Carroll writes, “nor is there any great lost written works before then.” I wonder what Cambridge historian E. J. Rapson found to write 650 pages about covering the same period in his “Ancient India”?

Hey! I was right! It's one of a few options thought to be the origin of the phrase "crossing the line in the sand".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_...

Galicius wrote: ". I certainly hope we are led in the right direction. “No Indian writing of any kind, earlier than about 250 BC survives;” Mr. Carroll writes, “nor is there any great lost written works before then. .."

Good eye Galicius! I never would have picked up on the inaccuracy! In the first paragraph on page 160 Dr. Carroll mentions the Vedas. The Vedas were sacred texts written by the Hindus in India around 1200 BC or perhaps earlier. Then on page 161 he writes about the quotes you mention (no writing surviving earlier than 250 BC). Also on the bottom of page 161 he states "so the sage Aruni taught in the Chandogya Upanishad (my note: the Upanishads are part of the Vedas), perhaps as early as 700 BC..." Unless I am not understanding things correctly, Dr. Carroll's comments about Indian writing do appear to be inaccurate and he appears to contradict himself. It is a little disturbing to find incorrect information.

Susan Margaret wrote: "Galicius wrote: ". I certainly hope we are led in the right direction. “No Indian writing of any kind, earlier than about 250 BC survives;” Mr. Carroll writes, “nor is there any great lost written ..."

I noticed that as well during that section. Do you think by writing he meant outside of the religious writing? Perhaps, he meant writing about their way of life, information on rulers, etc. I felt like his bias was so strong in that section it took away from the strength of his work.

Leslie wrote: "Do you think by writing he meant outside of the religious writing? Perhaps, he meant writing about their way of life, information on rulers, etc. I felt like his bias was so strong in that section it took away from the strength of his work."

Leslie, I also thought perhaps he meant writings about their way of life and general history until he goes on to say "nor is there any great lost written works before then.” Dr. Carroll is very unclear in this instance.

I guess we'll just mark it up as an oversight. LOL. He was so extreme on this topic.

As an afterthought, I am not too concerned by what I observed so far that struck me as peculiar. I will never become a scholar or delve to the bottom of history in any period. It’s a long road as it is to survey the next two millennia and we would never do it by a slower route. I am sure Mr. Carroll spent many years over the books in the bibliography and I feel grateful to what he imparted in this history.

Galicius, Leslie & Susan Margaret I commend all three of you for thoroughness in finding misstatements and for kindness in being able to walk around those statements and keep on going.

Thank You.

I too am no scholar! :-) What I am enjoying the most about our reading of "The History of Christendom" is that it has prompted us all to question and do further research. A good non-fiction book should instill curiosity and the quest for further knowledge. As a result of this, several good books have been recommended by our fellow members to enhance our learning about things we have read in Carroll's history. For each chapter that Dr. Carroll has written, a 600 page book could be written on that chapter alone. I am enjoying the book and our conversation about it! Leslie, I agree let's chalk it up to an oversight!

Susan Margaret wrote: "I too am no scholar! :-) What I am enjoying the most about our reading of "The History of Christendom" is that it has prompted us all to question and do further research. A good non-fiction book sh..."

Yes, any history book will have mistakes. It would be impossible to not have them. I love this book and I love our little group. I'm almost done with Chapter 11. I hate getting behind but it's been one thing after another.

I'm still laughing at the Maccabees. Today I read about the elephant killing. It upsets me so much that these animals were used in war. Mankind is so frustrating.

I do find it interesting that the Maccabees names were so similar to Jesus's disciples and today I saw the first person named Jesus in this book. It's as if everything to come was being foreshadowed.

Leslie, I am laughing too at your comment that the Maccabees reminded you of a family of New Yorkers!!

Susan Margaret wrote: "Leslie, I am laughing too at your comment that the Maccabees reminded you of a family of New Yorkers!!"

It's either New Yorkers or pre-Irish. LOL. Either way, they were kicking some booty. :!)

I should clarify here. If it's not obvious from my name, when I say the Maccabees feel like New Yorkers or Irish, it's with love and laughter. I know and/or am related to both.

On another note we see in 2 Maccabees 12 that Judas Maccabeus prayed for the atonement of sins for some of his troops killed in battle who wore pagan charms. His prayer for them indicates his belief in an afterlife and that prayers could help those men. This is very similar to the Catholic belief in Purgatory.

Mike wrote: "On another note we see in 2 Maccabees 12 that Judas Maccabeus prayed for the atonement of sins for some of his troops killed in battle who wore pagan charms. His prayer for them indicates his belie..."

That's a good observation Mike. We haven't heard much about thoughts on the afterlife thus far, but of course we know from Egyptian pyramids that the afterlife was a big concern among pagan worshippers. I would have expected this to have been on the minds of early pre-Christ Christians as well.

Also reminds me of Moses praying for the Israelites.

Mike,

I was thinking...I'm also reviewing World History for a high school student and his book was talking about fossil evidence, I believe it was Homo erectus, a pre-human ancestor of ours that we are derived from, that was found and showed evidence of burial of the dead as well as burying objects with the dead, implying belief in an afterlife. We're talking about remains from over 200,000 years ago....long before any of the people we are reading about. Isn't that amazing!!!

Leslie wrote: "Mike,

I was thinking...I'm also reviewing World History for a high school student and his book was talking about fossil evidence, I believe it was Homo erectus, a pre-human ancestor of ours that ..."

Yes, it is amazing. Numerous civilizations expected an afterlife, the entire concept of crossing over to a new stage has been common.

In a Biblical sense we had differing opinions even within the same faith, I believe that the Sadducees did not ascribe to an afterlife; however the Pharisees did hold a belief in an afterlife.

Carroll sketches the history of early Rome, its constitution, government, and rise to power nicely. Roman tolerance of native populations in areas they expanded seems like a strong factor for the their success. A notable exception is their failure to control the Seleucid generals from killing the Maccabees and Judeans. I am curious how it happened later that Rome becomes so intolerant and hostile to Christians. We probably will find out.

I probably say this every week, but I think these two chapters are perhaps my favorite. They are definitely helping me to put all of the random pieces of history I've learned over the years together. There are a few loose ends.....like what happened to Tryphon in Chapter 11? He kind of victorously leaves us after behaving completely horribly. I hope he didn't die peacefully somewhere.

I'm so disappointed in the Maccabees. They were my favorite story!!! Thank you so much Dr. Carroll for really deepening my understanding of the different Israelite sects....Essenes, Saduccees, Pharisees, Hasmoneans, etc. A few years ago I bought a TERRIFIC book called Anatomy of the New Testament which picks up right at this very point. I wish that book had just stepped back about 50-100 years earlier to explain this time period, but fortunately, Dr. Carroll did.

Also confusing to me is the Italian Social War??? I don't understand the Italian enfranchisement piece. I don't think I understand that word in this context.

It's so hard to understand this repeating theme throughout mankind's history of having good morals, caring about others, uniting for common causes....then winning battles, gaining money, popularity, and status then greed and corruption enters followed by internal strife, backstabbing, unethical behavior, moral decline, etc.

Why, why, why did the Maccabees who went into war to defend the religion that they were so passionate about, come thru to the other side and merge church and state? I think it was a matter of trust. I think they felt like too many rulers had burned them and they knew that they were passionate about the cause, willing to fight for it and not cave in. Sadly, I think in religion we have to let go of the reins of our life at times and in places. Repeatedly, when man tries to control all aspects of life, it utterly fails. When we lean on one another, valuing and respecting what each brings to the table, God seems to provide the necessary support to carry us through impossible odds.

I did laugh when Pompey pushed open the curtain at the Temple. One wonders about the horse's head rumor. I can see it being true just as easily as I can see it being an Italian joke. I immediately thought of the most famous scene of The Godfather, the horse's head in the bed. LOL.

Rome has been frustrating to read about. They seemed to be doing so well, though not perfect, in their organized society following the rules, then, all the sudden the rules are chucked. I don't know my Italian history well, but I'm reading The Pope and Mussolini and it talks about....once again, war breaks out and Italy reverts to a dictatorship. I'm not sure when that started, but certainly it seems to be at work in this time period. It's frustrating that no one fought to preserve all of that hard work. The political party system does not seem to have been much more successful for us in recent years at least. One wonders if parties are more divisive than representative of people.

Only a few more pages to go in Chapter 12. :-)

Finished!!! You can't pack it all in there. For some parts at the end, I feel like I've read other books that brought these final days and months of Caesar's life into better focus, but I still admire this representation.

If you haven't read Killing Jesus: A History by Bill O'Reilly I think his version of this time was pretty good. It really gave a sense if the sadness of the loss of his friend Pompey, even though they were at odds at the time of his death. It also went much more into the relationship with Cleopatra. We'll never know the behind-the-scenes on that, but his take was interesting.

Poor Caesar felt doomed to a political death the very moment he was exiled. Given the way opposition was so routinely disposed of, it isn't much of a stretch to see this happening. Perhaps the real miracle is how long he did make it in spite of that. I think that plays into his extreme appreciation for the support of the Jews at a critical juncture in his life.