Victorians! discussion

Please post any background information here. This read starts October 1.

Hi All

Deborah and Pip are letting me be a guest moderator for our reading of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (AA) and Through the Looking Glass (LG). The reading schedule is posted on the other thread.

There is certainly a great deal to say about Carroll. Both his work and his own personality have been flipped around like a Rubik's Cube. Our discussions should be lively and far-ranging. Perhaps we could start with how Charles Lutwidge Dodgson became Lewis Carroll.

Dodgson submitted a small poem titled "Solitude" to a minor publication headed by Edmund Yates. Yates was happy to publish it but did not like the pseudonym Dodgson was using so asked Dodgson to come up with a new pseudonym. Dodgson, a man of both logic and creative genius, went to work.

Charles was Latinized to Carolus and then to Carroll. His second name, Lutwidge, his mother's family name, was worked into Lewis. The joy and magic of words and the use of the imagination we see in Carroll's work was also part of his own "new" name. Yates liked that and so Lewis Carroll was born. Edmund Yates, while a minor literary figure himself, touched upon many important events and people in his life. It was Yates who began the famous feud between Dickens and Thackeray. Yates, as an editor/publisher, was also a part of the early literary careers of people like G.B. Shaw and Oscar Wilde.

Peter wrote: "Hi All

Deborah and Pip Are letting me be a guest moderator for our reading of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (AA) and Through the Looking Glass (LG). The reading schedule is posted on the other ..."

I'd just like to rephrase that first sentence and say that Deborah and Pip are absolutely delighted to have Peter as our leader through the wonderful world of Alice. A very warm welcome! Looking forward to what I'm sure will be a fabulous group read :-))

Pip wrote: "Peter wrote: "Hi All

Deborah and Pip Are letting me be a guest moderator for our reading of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (AA) and Through the Looking Glass (LG). The reading schedule is posted..."

I was thinking the same thing :)

He adored children, and seemed to be able to communicate as if he were still a child. He would make friends with them as he passed their garden (Alice Liddell), in train stations, on trains, etc. He would keep puzzles and toys for their visits. After first meeting the child, he would then send letters, drawings, poems, puzzles, and gifts. In some cases the child's name was spelled out in the poem.

Alice Liddell is the Alice in our reading. Carroll told a story to her and her sisters during a boat ride. Carroll had made up the story on the spot. Alice then requested he write down the adventures for her. Carroll wrote and illustrated the story then entitled Alice Underground. Carroll was encouraged by adult and child friends to publish the book. He then revised and had Tenniel do the illustrations which became Alice in Wonderland.

He was also into photography and enjoyed photographing children. He felt childhood beauty was fleeting and should be recorded.

I started reading ALice in Wonderland a little while ago and find an author with quite an imagination. Love it!

Electronic versions of Alice are available from Project Gutenberg here: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/sear...

You can also download Tenniel's iconic illustrations from the list, so if your paper or electronic version is unillustrated, you can still enjoy them! Alternatively, Google "Tenniel Alice Wonderland" and you'll find them all.

There are several audio versions of Alice on YouTube; some are the full novels and others are dramatised versions.

The full novels read by Sir John Gielgud look interesting:
Wonderland : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dq1T5c-...
Looking Glass : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Orl-kMm...

Also, for Librivox fans, there are several versions of Wonderland (https://librivox.org/search?q=Alice%2...) though I haven't had the chance to check them out. Nothing for Looking Glass as far as I can see.

...and has everyone noticed my "photo"?

Frances wrote: "...and has everyone noticed my "photo"?"

Oh, that's just perfect!!

Everyman-thanks for reminding me that several years ago I purchased a hardcover copy of The Annotated Alice: The Definitive Edition-even though I already have a lovely copy of the two books with original illustrations and a truly amazing pop-up version that my daughter received-just because it was beautiful and I liked Martin Gardner and, well, because I like book books. I have unearthed it from my library and look forward to cracking its cover with this group.

I don't know whether it's coincidence or whether somehow abebooks knows what I'm reading (if so, that's really spooky!), but I just got an email from them celebrating Alice's 150th anniversary and listing a number of what they consider special editions of Alice.

http://www.abebooks.com/books/feature...

Frances wrote: "Everyman-thanks for reminding me that several years ago I purchased a hardcover copy of The Annotated Alice: The Definitive Edition-even though I already have a lovely copy of the two books with original illustrations and a truly amazing pop-up version that my daughter received..."

And thanks back to you for prompting me to go to my upstairs library shelves and look for a pop-up edition of Alice, which we have! It's by Robert Sabuda, whose work I really admire, and in addition to wonderful pop-up illustrations it has, in little mini-books on each page, the complete (as far as I can tell, haven't checked each one) text of Alice.

Everyman wrote: "...but I just got an email from them celebrating Alice's 150th anniversary and listing a number of what they consider special editions of Alice.

http://www.abebooks.com/books/feature...
"

Oh my goodness the Arthur Rackham illustrations are stunning! (And only $700-I checked!)

There is also a Kickstarter project ongoing (I'm a backer) producing a new edition of AAIW

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...

I think I heard that Alice hated being Alice in Wonderland when she grew up, does anyone know if that's true? To me it seems like such a beautiful celebration, but maybe you feel trapped as a child? Peter Pan and Christopher Robbin I know were unhappy with the legacy.

Clari wrote: "I think I heard that Alice hated being Alice in Wonderland when she grew up, does anyone know if that's true? To me it seems like such a beautiful celebration, but maybe you feel trapped as a child..."

Yes. Being THE Alice of AAIW was a mixed blessing. Alice Liddle was celebrated throughout her life by others which did open some doors and opportunities for her, but ultimately it seems to have been somewhat of an annoyance. I shutter to think what today's entertainment media would have done or invented about her and her relationship to Lewis Carroll.

Peter wrote: "I shutter to think what today's entertainment media would have done or invented about her and her relationship to Lewis Carroll."

I think a lot of people do say those things, but luckily it is long past their time. I also remember one Carroll biography that said he was Jack the Ripper, so there's lots of gossip out there!
Doing a little googling I found this:
http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2013...
that would have been interesting to see.

It's Mad Hatter day on goodreads!

Clari wrote: "Peter wrote: "I shutter to think what today's entertainment media would have done or invented about her and her relationship to Lewis Carroll."

I think a lot of people do say those things, but luc..."

Clari: Thank you for that link. What a wonderful theatrical experience it would have been to see the production, or just watch the actors on stage at the same time. The phrase "Neverland and Wonderland" in the article captured the experience and the apparent anguish of how the fictional Peter Pan and Alice changed the lives of two human beings perfectly. The fictional world can indeed dominate the real world.

Deborah wrote: "It's Mad Hatter day on goodreads!"

https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/5...

Marvelous! Looks like it was yesterday, and to some extent it was for me a day of foolishness and tea parties. I wish I had known--I could have enjoyed the foolishness more knowing it had its own day. :)

Ginny wrote: "Deborah wrote: "It's Mad Hatter day on goodreads!"

https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/5...

Marvelous! Looks like it was yesterday, and to some extent it..."

I missed it too. Fact is, I never knew about the special day at all. Here's hoping the White Rabbit wasn't late for the special day.

Pip wrote: "There are several audio versions of Alice on YouTube; some are the full novels and others are dramatised versions.

The full novels read by Sir John Gielgud look interesting:
Wonderland : https:/..."

Thanks! Gielgud has a great voice for reading. He sounds like a grandfather reading to his grand kids.

I thought I'd share my favorite poem by Lewis Carroll, "A Strange Wild Song."


(view spoiler)[He thought he saw an Elephant
That practised on a fife:
He looked again, and found it was
A letter from his wife.
'At length I realize,' he said,
'The bitterness of life! '

He thought he saw a Buffalo
Upon the chimney-piece:
He looked again, and found it was
His Sister's Husband's Niece.
'Unless you leave this house,' he said,
'I'll send for the police! '

He thought he saw a Rattlesnake
That questioned him in Greek:
He looked again, and found it was
The Middle of Next Week.
'The one thing I regret,' he said,
'Is that it cannot speak! '

He thought he saw a Banker's Clerk
Descending from the bus:
He looked again, and found it was
A Hippopotamus.
'If this should stay to dine,' he said,
'There won't be much for us! '

He thought he saw a Kangaroo
That worked a Coffee-mill:
He looked again, and found it was
A Vegetable-Pill.
'Were I to swallow this,' he said,
'I should be very ill! '

He thought he saw a Coach-and-Four
That stood beside his bed:
He looked again, and found it was
A Bear without a Head.
'Poor thing,' he said, 'poor silly thing!
It's waiting to be fed! '

He thought he saw an Albatross
That fluttered round the lamp:
He looked again, and found it was
A Penny-Postage Stamp.
'You'd best be getting home,' he said:
'The nights are very damp! '

He thought he saw a Garden-Door
That opened with a key:
He looked again, and found it was
A Double Rule of Three:
'And all its mystery,' he said,
'Is clear as day to me! '

He thought he saw a Argument
That proved he was the Pope:
He looked again, and found it was
A Bar of Mottled Soap.
'A fact so dread,' he faintly said,
'Extinguishes all hope! ' (hide spoiler)]

Jacob wrote: "I thought I'd share my favorite poem by Lewis Carroll, "A Strange Wild Song."


He thought he saw an Elephant
That practised on a fife:
He looked again, and found it was
A letter from his wife.
'At..."

Thanks for sharing, Jacob, that was a fun poem to read on a dank Thursday afternoon.

Jacob wrote: "I thought I'd share my favorite poem by Lewis Carroll, "A Strange Wild Song."


He thought he saw an Elephant
That practised on a fife:
He looked again, and found it was
A letter from his wife.
'At..."

Jacob

Delightful. Like much of Carroll's writing, I found myself both smiling with joy and scratching my head in mild confusion at the same time.

Jacob wrote: "I thought I'd share my favorite poem by Lewis Carroll, "A Strange Wild Song."


He thought he saw an Elephant
That practised on a fife:
He looked again, and found it was
A letter from his wife.
'At..."

Brilliant nonsense! This is one I didn't know, so thanks for sharing it!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...



Went to a presentation tonight on Public Art in NYC. Included was this bronze statuary collection in Central Park. Our speaker said that when the girl who was the model for Alice spoke she frequently prefaced her comments with "Yes, I am the Alice."

Note the Whoopi audio: http://www.centralparknyc.org/things-...

Nice statue!

Lily wrote: "https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...


My favorite statue in Central Park. There's also a nice Alice sculpture in Kensington gardens in london

Deborah wrote: "Lily wrote: "https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...


My favorite statue in Central Park...."

The stature is another great reason to visit New York.

Delurking to say that I went this month to see the Alice display in the Museum of Childhood in Bethnal Green, London, which focused on Alice's influence on fashion. They had an adorable Victorian-era little girl's outfit and lots of illustrations on display, including a 1920s Alice with a bob. What I found fascinating was that the original 1865 Alice was wearing clothes very similar to fashion in the 1950s, but to Victorian readers her loose hair, bare arms and the length of her skirt definitely indicated a child not an adolescent or grown woman.

Press release here: http://www.vam.ac.uk/__data/assets/pd...

Moppet

Thank you for the link to the Museum of Childhood. There seems to be no end to Alice's influence in literature, culture and society. Being Canadian, I did a double take when the article mentioned Avril Lavigne.