Reading the Chunksters discussion

I hope you have read ahead and ignore me being late. Here is a thread for a new discussion that will cover the next chapters.

Below are some discussion bones to chew on.

1. So far, the novel discussed several issues - gold digging, financial machinations, murder mysteries, political agenda. Are they all successful ingredients for a good novel?

2. We have not had much of a clue why the novel is called The Luminaries. Who are they or what are they? Why has this name been selected for this novel?

3. Celestial bodies are extremely important in navigation, and the novel partially deals with ships and navigation. Do you think the subtitles can also allude to the navigation theme?

4. The language of the novel is slightly tongue-in-cheeky. Does it enrich the narrative or makes it hard to follow the mystery plot of the book?

Again, please feel free to ignore the questions and post what you think is important. Everything you say is extremely important.

Looking forward to your posts.

I was a tad more exasperated with this section. I feel that Catton is very much exploring the reverse of "no man is an island" in that we are only allowed to perceive everything through one set of eyes at a time. All their lives are entwined, yet, in each section of the story we are stuck viewing the others through that narrator's preconceived notions, judgement, class structures, etc. In itself its an interesting concept, you almost learn more about the narrator not through what they accept, but through how they judge the characters around them.

We also see the first mention of them all meeting in a group. I assume that the group in the first chapters is the meeting that was called in Midnight Dawns in Scorpio, although, I am having a bit of trouble tracking the timeline, so I suppose it could be a later meeting. Interesting though, if it is the same meeting, that so many people have arrived despite the explicit instructions to keep it small.

Mostly I wanted Catton to get on with it a bit in these chapters. The Wetherell chapter had me intrigued, and I want to explore more of her story, hell, of any of the mysteries really.

Did anyone else notice that Wetherell lives in a canary yellow house? I don't know yet if I think that is somehow symbolic of her character, but I am interested to find out. Canaries used to be lowered into the mines to make sure that the air was safe to breathe, could this somehow tie in to her attempted suicide/murder?

I am also starting to wonder if some of our characters are more related that they seem? Secret brothers and sisters? Or maybe fathers? A bastard son somewhere?

I see these first four chapters, and probably several more, as set up, setting up what follows. Nothing new in that, but here there is a lot more of it. The description and narration was less intrusive in these second two chapters, and that's a good sign; and I like how the narrator goes about describing things, but where its situated and how long these narrative passages are, is still interrupting the flow. That's my one complaint. Other than that I'm settling in and enjoying the way the story is unfolding.

The banker's name is Frost, very Dickensian, but I thought the dash (as in a pause) before he says his name was unnecessary. I can get that without being led by the nose. Perhaps Moody is Dickensian too.

I continue to really enjoy this book and all of the layers of the story that are starting to build through the use of different narrators.

I agree that everyone seems to be connected in some way, too, even though I am not sure how or why, but the common thread is money.

Overall, I am continuing to enjoy the book, but find it easier to follow if I am able to sit down and read a whole section (instead of a couple of pages at a time).

Everyone does seem to be connected and I was a bit confused that we seemed to be covering events that happened on the same day as the "meeting" that Moody crashed. Once the meeting was called, it started to fall into place better.

I find the narrative a bit awkward because it seems that everyone is "telling" Moody what happened. The first three chapters were related by Balfour and then Nilssen --- however, they are not telling the story in first person format and they are also filling in details that it doesn't seem like they would know (omniscient 3rd person) and then you have the random interlude of "we" (1st person plural) popping up. As an example, Balfour talks about meeting the Maori Te Rau Tauwhare and fills in details where Balfour was not necessarily present --- so how would Balfour know?

One common thread is certainly money, but the other is Francis Carver --- even Anna Wetherell had some type of interaction with him that was alluded to by Pritchard.

I had some questions that I jotted down while reading it, but I don't have my kindle handy at the moment.

Good point, Jolene. Carver is a key factor in the solving the mystery because he is a common thread in each of the narrations.

I really like these questions, Zulfiya. I feel better able to answer them, which is kind of impressive for me, since I typically have no idea what is going on in this book. Sort of.

I also completely agree with you, Jolene, that it's really best to sit down and read significant portions of this book. The few pages I get in every day are not so helpful. Maybe that's the way with chunksters? I don't think I've read that many of them, and when I did, I probably didn't have that much going on. I also agree that the 3rd person narrative is a little jostling. The idea that some third party is summarizing the storytelling for the reader, whereas Moody is getting the clunky version, makes you question the narration.

1.) So far, the novel discussed several issues - gold digging, financial machinations, murder mysteries, political agenda. Are they all successful ingredients for a good novel? For these elements being ingredients of a successful novel, I would entirely agree. It's certainly an amalgam I haven't come across before, but I haven't lost interest, though I've certainly been puzzled by the intricacies of everything happening. But murder mysteries make for an excellent novel.

2.) We have not had much of a clue why the novel is called The Luminaries. Who are they or what are they? Why has this name been selected for this novel? I looked up the definition of the term 'luminary'. The definitions I received are: a person who inspires/influences others, especially in a particular sphere; an artificial light; literary- a natural light-giving body. The combination so far seems like it could be completely appropriate. I think it's entirely likely that the title is referring to the way that these characters influence each other, but that might be a pleasant side-effect. What if the characters themselves are providing artificial light (artificial meaning either a copy of something natural OR something insincere or affected)? This seems much more likely, since everything we've experienced is more than a little suspect, and it's likely that characters are revealing aspects that are questionable (not to mention the 3rd person mixture of information). We can easily see how each character might be withholding something crucial but appears to be sincere.

3.) Celestial bodies are extremely important in navigation, and the novel partially deals with ships and navigation. Do you think the subtitles can also allude to the navigation theme? I'm going to say yes, because I can't imagine that the answer is no. Unless Catton is messing with us (*shakes fist*). Most of the celestial information is kind of lost on me (though I do go to the links that Nicola provided in the schedule thread, when I have the energy).

4. The language of the novel is slightly tongue-in-cheeky. Does it enrich the narrative or makes it hard to follow the mystery plot of the book? I'd say both. I like the language of the book. I find it to be elegant, if somewhat long, and I like that it provides a sense of intimacy to the reader. That said, I am absolutely having difficulty following the mystery plot of the book, but probably not as badly as I think I am. What makes the mystery so difficult to navigate is probably the fact that so many people are involved in crucial ways. Sometimes I'm not sure how crucial that involvement is for certain characters, but there must be a reason, right?

Overall I'm enjoying the novel, and I tend to enjoy it more when I have a solid 30 minutes at a time to read.

I'm not quite finished with this section yet, but I found this quote interesting:

(When Nilssen is thinking about the button he nearly stole from his cousin in his youth) "...although a man is judged by his actions, by what he has said and done, a man judges himself by what he is willing to do, by what he might have said, or might have done..."

I hadn't thought about it in those terms before, but it gives better definition to the idea of man being his own worst critic. We judge ourselves harsher because we know ourselves better, we know the "might haves" and not just the "dids" and "saids."

Just finished this section. I agree with JoLene; honestly, until near the end of this section when Moody asks for clarification about how Anna was holding the gun, I wasn't sure is this was still being related to him by the folks in the meeting or if we had switched to a section relayed

in the 3rd person. I'm finding the narration style very confusing. That being said, the story itself is very intriguing and I'm looking forward to seeing how the pieces all ultimately fit together, as I'm sure they will.

I didn't quite understand the significance of the deal Nilssen made with the jailer?

Alana wrote: "Just finished this section. I agree with JoLene; honestly, until near the end of this section when Moody asks for clarification about how Anna was holding the gun, I wasn't sure is this was still b..."

I certainly forgot entirely about Moody and did not notice that he asked for clarification. Thanks, Alana and JoLene. I see now that the author decided in the beginning of Jupiter in Sagittarius to improve on Balfour's approach to telling the story. Does this continue through this section?

Alana: I still don't understand Nilssen's deal with the jailer. Actually I kind of forgot what the deal was, and I convinced myself that we don't know what it is and that it's just being hinted at because we'll find out.

But it's more likely that I've just forgotten it. Woes.

I believe the deal Nilssen made with Shepard was that Nilssen would give Shepard the money that Nilssen earned from selling Crosbie Wells belongings. The money would go into to accelerate the building of a new prison. The problem is that the money is actually not Nilssen's because he's about to give it back to Crosbie's wife Lydia Wells. Shepard is actually slyly blackmailing Nilssen in to giving him the money and assisting him with the building. Shepard does promise to give him the money back with interest.

I, too, was struck by the silver button (p141) story, and how a man perceives himself by his actions or intentions, even if not acted on. Later, Pritchard is "the dog badly named", afraid that the poisoned opium and planted laudanum will be attributed to him, that his previous bad actions are defining him.

Catton's "harmony of the spheres" (p.117) are the turning spheres of time, here in the "A Sphere within a Sphere" section. Pythagoras, the ancient Greek, says that the celestial bodies, sun, moon, planets, emit a hum, a resonance, and the tenor of life on earth is affected (Wiki). Composers have tried to represent these harmonies in music. An astrological reference?

1. To be honest I think nearly anything can make a good movie if you have a good director and producter. I think all those ingredients make for an intriguing mystery.

2. The Luminaries are the sun and moon. Other than being obvious members of the astrology family they are light givers, both during the day and at night time.

3. What subtitles?

4. I haven't found the language to be tongue in cheek, I think I'd consider it rather basic. Simple and quite bland. Some novels blow me away with their authors control of language, this definitely isn't making any impression in that area.

This is a response to Mekki from a question he asked in the Items of Interest thread.

I think Midnight Dawns just refers to the beginning of a new day and thus a new conjunction of the stars and planatery influences. We have so far lived out the time of a single day. Or perhaps we have because it jumps around a bit. I'll check the star charts and confirm my thoughts.

Mars in Sagittarius:
Mars in Sagittarius isn't known for patience. They are restless and adventurous. Physical activity is the best way for them to deal with anger. They always like to be busy, so they are constantly working on many projects all at once. They aren't known for their finished product, however. They get much more excited to begin something new rather than finish something old.

It can be a bit difficult to keep up with Mars in Sagittarius. One moment they are easy going, joking and having fun; and the next they are intensely passionate about some topic or other. They like the wide open spaces, both figuratively and literally. They don't like to feel hemmed in. If things get serious or dull, they disappear. While they can get carried away on a moralistic point that will drive everyone around them crazy, they soon back off and just concentrate on having fun.

Sagittarius Mars is used to getting their own way, because they can be very persuasive. When they meet up with those who can make holes in their grandiose plans, they get frustrated. They take it very personally when others don't believe the same way they do. They are very enthusiastic, but not very practical. They rather like philosophy; it goes well with their idealism. They are confident and optimistic and take risks without thinking of the consequences. They have a short attention span, but they are friendly and outgoing.


I thought that that was a good description of Te Rau Tauwhare but as he is one of the 12 he must have a star sign rather than a planet. In that case I guess it would be Carver?

In this first new chapter I was rather surprised at the document which was discovered linking Anne Wetherall in with the missing man (Emery) and even more surprised that the chaplain decided to conceal its existence.

I also tried to translate what Te Rau Tauwhare said when he got cheated out of his money by Balfour and it is part of a saying which translates to:

Whāia te iti kahurangi, ki te
tuohu koe me maunga teitei
Pursue that which is precious, and
do not be deterred by anything less
than a lofty mountain.

So I guess he said the second part.

Becky wrote: Did anyone else notice that Wetherell lives in a canary yellow house? I don't know yet if I think that is somehow symbolic of her character, but I am interested to find out.

The sun is yellow. Perhaps that is an indication of what planetary body she is?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "The banker's name is Frost, very Dickensian, but I thought the dash (as in a pause) before he says his name was unnecessary. I can get that without being led by the nose.

I think the pause was the standard one you get when you ask for someone's name. The dash wasn't before his response, it was after Balfours.


Thank you very much Mr -?

Frost

Thank you very much Mr Frost

Just Rambling out loud here.

It could also mean that Anna Wetherell is the Sun, you are quite correct. I did some "celestial" research, she is listed as Planetary in the beginning which would indeed mean that she could be the Sun as that was its designation.
In quite a few myths, too, the sun and/or moon are sacrificial characters, every night going to Hell to pay for the world, or being hounded by celestial wolves, or torn a part from their love and placed in an opposite sky so that the sun and moon can never be together. This fits in with the canary portion, and yellow for the sun. I dont know how much astrology goes into various mythologies, but I am still interested to see if Anna is a sacrificial character- I mean, in someways, as a prostitute she already is.

Which is also interesting, only the Sun and Moon are considered Luminaries. If she is the Sun, then the book is somewhat named for her, and whoever the moon is.

So we have 12 men in the room that are the 12 astrological signs as designated by the circle at the beginning of part one. Each chapter tells us who will be playing a major role, i.e. Mercury in Sagittarius means the Chapter is about Balfour.

Then we would need the following people to be assigned a celestial body:
Lydia Wells Carver Greenway (Venus)
Walter Moody
Francis Carver (Mars)
Alistair Lauderback (Jupiter)
George Shepard
Emery Staines
Anna Wetherell - (Sun)

Looking at the chapter names we have the following planetary bodies interacting with zodiac signs- Mercury, Mars, Moon, Sun, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn. One of each of the above. I am assuming each person represents their planetary body in the same way the 12 men's character structure is built upon their zodiac. I put my guesses in paranthesis above.

I am starting to think that what makes this novel so impressive despite its sometimes laboring prose is that we will cycle through each man as through the zodiac signs of the year, and that they will interact with each other as they would in relation to the supposed movement of the planets. To build a story that was already structured in such a way and force it to fit coherently would be difficult. It would also mean more if I understood what "retrograde" meant etc. in astrology terms, which I realize has been posted on the interesting links page.

Becky wrote: "Just Rambling out loud here.

It could also mean that Anna Wetherell is the Sun, you are quite correct. I did some "celestial" research, she is listed as Planetary in the beginning which would inde..."

I thought a little bit more on this before going to bed last night. She is a prostitute which I more associate with the nighttime ie the moon. Also Emery Staines is strongly connected with the goldfields (yellow/sun) as well as having a bit of a midas touch.

I'm not sure what to make of the above but I'm not 100% convinced either way.

If we go off of mythology the Sun and the Moon are also very frequently either brother/sister or lovers? I know it says that he always only hired her, and took her to a private room. A lover, or a brother trying to secretyly spend time with his sister? Or trying to implore her to turn away from prostitution?

Becky wrote: "If we go off of mythology the Sun and the Moon are also very frequently either brother/sister or lovers? I know it says that he always only hired her, and took her to a private room. A lover, or a ..."

Good thoughts and something to keep in mind.

I am hopelessly behind due to a family emergency. Hopefully will be able to catch back up. What I had read of this section was more interesting to me than the first section

I'm not sure if anyone else will find this funny, but while I was driving today, I was thinking about the book and the astrology symbolism. It does seem that Francis Carver is a central character but I'm not sure what his place would be from a celestial perspective. It just popped into my head that maybe he's a black hole :-D (I realize that black holes are not really astrology but that are part of astronomy.)

He's Mars I think - the Mars in Sagittarius part has him in it. As Te Rau Tauwhere has to be a sign that really only leaves Carver as the possible choice for Mars.

Becky listed the planetary bodies (as far as we've guessed) a few posts up. I'm a little unsure as to Anne Wetherall as the Sun. It suits her house but doesn't seem to suit her profession.

My guess is Carver as Mars since Mara is warlike and aggressive.

The sun for Anna doesn't fit her profession, but every man in town seems to shine on her in a very protective and loving way that isnt, I think, normal in a relationship between a man and their prostitute.

We shall see. Ill keep guessing lol

Becky wrote: "but every man in town seems to shine on her in a very protective and loving way ..."

That would be another argument for her being the moon, as it reflects light rather than provides any of its own.

I don't think there is much doubt that Carver is Mars unless there is another viable candidate in the Mars in Sagittarius chapter?

Two final comments (for now) for this chapter.

1. Did anyone else find Cowell Devlin's behaviour peculiar? Why would he conceal that document? It might not be legal but he reasoning 'to protect her' seems rather weak, even he doesn't seem to believe it.

2. Hokitika - the meaning of the word is 'to return'. Hoki: to return; tika: direct. A band of Ngai Tahu warriors in search of greenstone were about to attack a Ngāti Wairangi pā, when the chief of the invaders was drowned while trying to cross the river. The leaderless taua then returned directly to their own home.

Oh, and Balfour behaved like a patronising swindler in his interaction with Tauwhare.

Saturn in Libra:
Saturn in Libra is just and fair. They are refined and intellectual. They are natural diplomats and have a great sense of tact. They cooperate rather than compete, which makes it easy for them to work with others.

Well Joseph Pritchard isn't a Libra, he doesn't fit the profile at all

Libra traits


Strengths: Cooperative,diplomatic, gracious, fair-minded, social

Weaknesses: Indecisive, avoids confrontations, will carry a grudge, self-pity

Libra likes: Harmony, gentleness, sharing with others, the outdoors

Libra dislikes: Violence, injustice, loudmouths, conformity

So, without looking at any list to confirm it I'd say that means it's Nilssen. And SATURN! of course is George Shepard.


Saturn Signs present challenges to us which make us grow up. Saturn represents restrictions, limitations, delays and authority. If you've ever heard your parents tell you they were doing something for your own good, well, that's Saturn.

Structure and discipline are needed for life and society to succeed. Saturn keeps reminding us how true that is and makes sure we learn it. Saturn energy also affects our body's growth. Too much Saturn energy can cause overgrowth, such as calcifications appearing where they shouldn't. In our culture, too much Saturn energy is reflected in the rule of tyrants and dictators.

More people being caught up in the wide net that the unpleasant Mr Carver seems to have cast. With so many people getting entangled against their will it should surely make it easier for them, as a single body, to clear themselves. Several of the stories which apparently implicated them were very weak and if they, en masse, went to the authorities and stated how each of them had been threatened, intimidated or tricked into behaviour that might look a little strange, by the same man; the words of these many fine upstanding citizens should clear the reputations of all.

Of course, that's presuming none of them have 'a twinkle' on them. Which I gather isn't the case.

With the classic mystery tactic of making everyone looks suspicious of appear to be hiding something I found the conversation between Nilssen and Shepard rather amusing, especially the bit where Shepard says 'You seem to be determined to see this offer as blackmail. I cannot imagine why this should be so.'

Midnight Dawns in Scorpio

Scorpio:

Strengths: Resourceful, brave, passionate, stubborn, a true friend

Weaknesses: Distrusting, jealous, secretive, violent

Scorpio likes: Truth, facts, being right, longtime friends, teasing, a grand passion

Scorpio dislikes: Dishonesty, revealing secrets, passive people


I think the reference to 'Midnight Dawns' along with the prosaic meaning of 'a new day' might also be a deliberate attempt to create more ambiguity as to the role of Anna. Midnight makes you think of nighttime ie the Moon. But Dawns makes you think of the rising sun.

I think that's rather clever.

No, you are quite correct Pritchard is the Scorpio, Nilssen is the Libra. Each man in the room at the beginning of the book was assigned a zodiac sign.


I dont think that George SHepherd is Mercury, I think he is Saturn simply because he was featured prominently in the chapter "Libra in Saturn" and so far no one has appeared prominently outside of their own chapter title.

Going on the idea of chapter titles then, the first chapter was Mercury in Sagittarius.Balfour was Sagittarius and he mostly spoke with, and somewhat entrapped, Moody whom they are all relating the story to. I think Moody is Mercury since thats the chapter heading, and your wuote about them sorting and grouping, and making sense of all things, seems to fit in that the stories are all being told to him to see how he can help the group of 12.

Joseph Pritchard seems to have a rather complex relationship with Anna (and we also learn that Ah Sook apparently had deep feelings for her as well). I can't say I've taken much to the man, if that's how he treats his so called 'friends'.

This was the first real encounter with Anna and there were a slew of references to the nighttime and paleness.

There's a direct reference to his beholding Anna 'by the light of the moon' and her complexion is described as being 'translucent, even blue'

Anna was pregnant the year before but lost the child 'a state which had warmed the wax of her cheeks'. Then further on 'she was darkness itself, the cloak of it.'

This chapter has a lot of peculiar things going on; neither protagonists seems to believe a word the other says for a start. Anna seemed to think the opium which caused her to pass out on the road was poisoned in some way and then, later, says that it wasn't. She also seems to dislike/distrust? Joseph Pritchard. She tells Joseph that Ah Sook says that he (Joseph) poisoned it.

Joseph doesn't believe Anna when she tells him that she has used all of the opium since. She doesn't look like she's drugged at all and it has had no ill effect on her. And, in a dramatic climax, she shoots herself and is completely unharmed! How? Why? WTF???

Pritchard leaves Anna with Aubert Gasgoigne (yet another man who seems rather enamoured with Ms Weatherall - there aren't many women in this book, so I guess she's having to be the love interest to just about the entire cast) and we find out that he gets his opium from Carver...

He gets a note from Harold who has followed up the gold lead with Quee who confirms that the gold found had been melted by him and who writes 'it appears that every man is implicated as we are - peripherally.' He then suggests that everyone who seems to been tied up by Carver's machinations meets at sunset. Sunset, being the transition between night and day, sun and moon.

This was a very active chapter and, as I suspected, once I started reading in serious chunks I got really caught up in the story, there is a lot going on and it's rather exciting.

Becky wrote: "I dont think that George SHepherd is Mercury,

Yes, that is a typo. I was looking at the star signs/planets and trying to assign based on characteristers. I rather thought that suited him but the chapter makes it clear that he's Saturn.

I'll change my post it's not confusing.

Nicola wrote: "And, in a dramatic climax, she shoots herself and is completely unharmed! How? Why? WTF???
"

Yeah, I'm still very perplexed by this!

Nicola wrote: "Saturn in Libra:
Saturn in Libra is just and fair. They are refined and intellectual. They are natural diplomats and have a great sense of tact. They cooperate rather than compete, which makes it e..."


I have pritchard as a Scorpio ruling the 8th house (The Opium Den). Scorpio is associated with Mars (carver) so that's something to keep an eye on.

BTW, Te Rau Tauwhare,(aries) also is ruled by mars (carver) also something to look into.

Mekki wrote: "BTW, Te Rau Tauwhare,(aries) also is ruled by mars (carver) also something to look into.


The Maori were a warrior like culture, so that's not unlikely. However I'm not sure of the connection between them. I'm rubbish at astrology but doesn't that just involve an influence at one particular point in time?

Nicola wrote: "Mekki wrote: "BTW, Te Rau Tauwhare,(aries) also is ruled by mars (carver) also something to look into.


The Maori were a warrior like culture, so that's not unlikely. However I'm not sure of the ..."

I think you're right about the point in time influence. I believe the influence is a postive influence to the planet. In this case Te Rau Tauwhare does something to assist Carver in a certain way.