The Humour Club discussion

As I was going over some notes for a manuscript I have out at publishers, it occurred to me that those of us who have attempted the traditional route probably have some experiences they can share. Specifically, things like which agents get back to you when you query them, editors and publishers who'll look at your unagented manuscript, stuff like that. Does this sound like a good idea for a thread? And would people with experience in soliciting agents and publishers contribute?

This sounds like an outstanding idea for a thread!

I tried contacting agents for my first book in 2007 and got absolutely nowhere. So given that and the potential offered by self-publishing, I figured re-researching and contacting agents would be a waste of time, so I didn't bother for my second book.

As such, learning from other comedy writers here would be invaluable (particularly if anyone knows of any industry folk who would be open to juvenile/explicit humor).

I hope there's some more interest in sharing experiences from everyone who's been through it.

A good place to research agents is www.querytracker.net. They actually have ways to statistically analyze things like agent and editor response rates. And comments are kept on each agent so you know if you're getting a standard rejection letter or a personal one.

Anyway, one thing I learned directly from the mouth of an agent stands out: agents receive thousands of queries each year, some over 10,000. Yet they take on only one or two writers a year. You might have better luck at a craps table.

I solicited about 100 agents for my last book about a year ago, and I'm still waiting to hear back from most of them. Some did, though, and I'll list some of them. Some publishers will accept unagented submissions, though more will than admit if you call specific editors and ask.

Lisa wrote: "A good place to research agents is www.querytracker.net. They actually have ways to statistically analyze things like agent and editor response rates. And comments are kept on each agent so you kno..."

Over 10,000 queries in one year. I can't imagine how overwhelming that must be for the agents. I love crossing everything off my to-do list by the end of the day (not that it's always possible, but that's always my goal) - I'd go bat crap crazy if I had a pile of queries several feet thick on my desk and I could never realistically hit the bottom of it. I admire them for sticking it out!

I don't know if this is the right thread to post this, so pardon me if I'm in the wrong room. On our cartoonist's board we had a thread that made me think about you talented writers on this board.

If there are writers out there that have any gag ideas written down and have considered expanding you markets by writing gags for cartoonists, a good resource for you might be:

The Gag Recap

It does cost $7.00 per year but has a synopsis of every gag cartoon in national magazines and cartoonists looking for writers. Look at the bottom of their Sample page for writer specific links. Hope this helps.

Sample:
WRITERS
Writers save your postage. Here are places for writers to sell humor material on-line:
CaddyLafGraffix- $25 Captions & Messages http://www.caddylakgraffix.com/Writer...

Country Magazine- Pays $25 for jokes.
http://www.country-magazine.com/contr...

Ephemera- Pays $50 for funny slogans.
http://www.ephemera-inc.com/writers-g...

Kalan Idea Factory- $100 Greeting Card Copy $75 Original One-Liners http://www.kalanlp.com/index.php/unce... email: submissions@kalanlp.com

Moonlighting- $25 Greeting Cards http://www.moonlightingcards.com/cata...

Reader’s Digest Pays $100 for jokes
http://www.rd.com/submit-joke/

Smart Alex- Greeting Cards-Compensation will be discussed after submission is selected for publication.
http://www.smartalexinc.com/pages/art...

Snafu- $100 Greeting Card Copy

http://www.snafudesigns.com/pdfs/Snf_...

T-Shirt Hell-Pays $200
http://www.tshirthell.com/forms/ideas...

CartoonistAndre wrote: "I don't know if this is the right thread to post this, so pardon me if I'm in the wrong room. On our cartoonist's board we had a thread that made me think about you talented writers on this board.
..."

Many thanks, Andre!

A few of the links failed, but you didn't mention when you last updated the list. Regardless, much appreciated.

Here are some U.S. publishing co.s I found who'll accept unagented manuscripts. A number of editors who only accept agented manuscripts have been willing to look at mine; you have to ask nicely and have a little luck picking them out.
Make sure, though, before submitting, that your manuscript is polished, proofed, and that the publisher publishes the kind of stuff you write. Most rejections just don't fit a particular list. Also, you may have to snail mail hard copies in some cases.

Farrar, Strauss & Giroux; Soho Press; Kensington; Quirk Books; Counterpoint Press/Soft Skull Press; Turner; Dzanc; Mundania; Leapfrog Press; Beaufort Books; Unbridled Books; Three Rooms Press; Persea Books; Seven Stories Press; Ink Smith; New Directions; Atticus Books; Bancroft Press; Paul Dry Books; Hopewell Publications; Start Media.

I also recommend submitting everywhere you possibly can at the same time, and follow up every few months or so. Some get back quickly, some lose your submission, editors leave, and some places just take a long time.

Jay wrote: "CartoonistAndre wrote: "I don't know if this is the right thread to post this, so pardon me if I'm in the wrong room. On our cartoonist's board we had a thread that made me think about you talented..."

My pleasure, Jay. Those links were copied from the sample offered on The Gag Recap page. I'm sure it was an old one and there have been some new links added or revised. I haven't subscribed to the publication for many years now, otherwise I would update those links and post any new information for you. I will certainly keep the eyes and ears open and keep you all posted.

Best of luck.

CartoonistAndre wrote: "Jay wrote: "CartoonistAndre wrote: "I don't know if this is the right thread to post this, so pardon me if I'm in the wrong room. On our cartoonist's board we had a thread that made me think about ..."

Thanks Andre!

Welcome Lisa! I would've posted this sooner, and just happened to catch a posting which made me think of y'all.

Joel wrote: "Here are some U.S. publishing co.s I found who'll accept unagented manuscripts. A number of editors who only accept agented manuscripts have been willing to look at mine; you have to ask nicely and..."

Thank you very much, Joel! This is a huge help!!!

I recently gave some advice which might be worth sharing. To wit: While uploading a manuscript to places like KDP and Smashwords is free, it's always good to have a print copy option. These generally aren't free. So: How to pay for it?
When you start a book, place a jar, bowl or similar receptacle somewhere you're apt to see it frequently. Then, whenever you have a bit of currency you can safely live without that day, drop it in. By the time you've finished your first draft, gone through it several times for changes and corrections, given it for feedback to at least a few people whose opinions you value, completely ignored their feedback 'cause they just didn't get it and are ready to publish, you'll have accumulated a chunk toward P.O.D. costs.
Then do your homework to find a P.O.D. publisher that will produce an acceptable-quality paperback for the least amount of money.

I just submitted a short story to the magazine Modern Drunkard. They actually pay (yes, I said "PAY") writers! What a concept, eh? They are looking for both non-fiction and fiction with booze as a central theme. Their website: www.drunkard.com.

I think that's the official publication for members of DAMM (Drunks Against Mad Mothers).

Lisa wrote: "I just submitted a short story to the magazine Modern Drunkard. They actually pay (yes, I said "PAY") writers! What a concept, eh? They are looking for both non-fiction and fiction with booze as a ..."

Please post the link when it comes out, Lisa - I'd like to read it :-)

Joel, that's a good idea about setting aside money, but I'd argue that it's for editing services, not print publication. The actual costs of printing through CreateSpace (what I use) are very low--to be precise, about $12-15 for a proof (shipping is steep, not the book). I also front enough to buy 20 or so copies for direct local sales. They sell to the author at just above cost, so my latest mystery costs me about $5.50 with shipping. For the record, including paying for my cover art (a bit more than if I were just an ebook cover, since I had her do the full lay-up), I've spent $208.29. I'll sell the books locally for $10-15 (my prices I admit depend on whom I'm selling to), give away a few, and make it back eventually.

Rebecca wrote: "I'll sell the books locally"

Can you expand on that?

Whom do you sell it to? How?

Rodney wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "I'll sell the books locally"

Can you expand on that?

Whom do you sell it to? How?"

I hold a launch event at my local library, or at the local indie bookstore that carries my books. I also provide them for the bookstore (he's amazing--pays up front, a 60-40 split). Some of my co-workers buy them.

With my kids books, I sell them through doing author talks at the schools.

ETA: I also do get a few requests for signed copies from people who are elsewhere, which I ship at a higher price (to cover shipping).

Graci

I also sell the physical books at book fairs and genre conventions, both of which are a lot of fun.

CreateSpace does have its benefits. However, Rebecca is very lucky in that she has an independent bookstore near her and that they sell her books and that she is connected with her local library. For those of us not that fortunate and who want to have a broader distribution than Amazon, CS has its limitations.

Amazon's a little bit tricky. Yes, you can get your ISBN number from CS for free. However, it limits your distribution to basically Amazon and Barnes and Noble's online store. CS will tell you that if you click "Expanded Distribution" when you set up your book than your book will be available to be placed in bookstores and libraries. What they don't tell you is that very, Very, VERY few brick and mortar bookstores and libraries will order your books from them. That's because CS books are not returnable. I could go into a long discourse on how the book retail industry works in the U.S. but it will take forever. For now, know that most bookstores sell on a consignment basis: they order books from the publisher and pay when they actually sell the books; if they don't sell, the books either get returned or destroyed.

I have a tiny small press and what I do is what many POD publishers in the US do. I buy my own ISBN numbers from Bowker. I use CS for Amazon sales -- but when I list them there, I do NOT click "Expanded Distribution." I use CS for setting up the book and creating a draft because you can edit it and make as many changes as you want for free there. Once I'm happy with it, I will go to Ingram Spark and list my book there. Ingram does cost money (I think it's $37 a title or something like that). But if you list on Ingram, it puts your book in the catalogue that brick and mortar stores and libraries can order from (including Barnes and Noble, (which to explain how to do that is another long discourse).

If you wanted to do a hardcover book, there are other distributors you could use, too, like Blurb, that work the way Ingram does.

Lisa's model is copied by a lot of small presses here in the UK too.

Lisa, that model sounds like it makes sense. I wasn't aware that you could do that, and may start shifting my books that way. I knew that libraries and bookstores mostly won't even look at self-published works, and that the no-returns policy from CS is why bookstores don't want them.

Of course, ISBNs are expensive when bought in small quantities. Anyone know what's with that? If you buy 1000, they are each quite cheap, but if you just want one, or ten, well, prepare to dig deep.

I am aware how lucky I am, especially about the library (and maybe the local bookstore, too. I guess there aren't so many of those left. Mine is actually in the next town, not in my own, as there is not a single bookstore, chain or otherwise, in my city of over 100,000. (That leads me off the subject, and the cause is in part because we are next door to SF, which of course has quite a lot of bookstores, but still...)

Will wrote: "I also sell the physical books at book fairs and genre conventions, both of which are a lot of fun."

I've done that exactly once. I didn't sell much, but mostly I've not done more because I don't keep track enough to know when there might be local events where I could sell without too much overhead. I'd like to do more.

Particularly the genre cons - I do the fantasy sci fi cons - the people are great, but you do need to go a few years to get onto the radar properly.

And ALWAYS go out of your way to be nice to the organisers. You would be amazed how many of the stallholders/authors who attend do not. Then next year, if they are oversubscribed, well...

I would like to thank everyone for all the above information. It is all great, and certainly things I didn't know. I wanted to make sure that the sharing you have done here is appreciated, at least by me.

I would also encourage people to consider traditional publishing, especially if you have a manuscript that's really strong. It takes time (1-2 years, even, for everyone you send it to to read and reply), but I have to believe not having to do everything yourself would be worth the extra effort involved in polishing and presenting.

Joel wrote: "I have to believe not having to do everything yourself would be worth the extra effort involved in polishing and presenting"

You're probably right, however, sometimes it's not a matter of just waiting for an agent or editor to like your manuscript. Janet Reid of Fine Print literary told me to my face that she absolutely loved my book HITTING THE SAUCE but that it wasn't marketable so she couldn't sell it to a house. Victoria Skurnic of Levine Greenberg told me I was "damn good" at writing mysteries but that "no one" is taking on debut funny mystery writers anymore unless. So what's a writer to do? Those are two big name agents who are supposed to know what they're talking about.

Aside from that, writers need to be aware of the odds. Agents and editors will tell you they get thousands of queries a year and only take on one or two writers each year. Almost makes the lottery sound like an east get, right?

I'm glad you asked that, Lisa. My answer: Call editors up directly and ask if they'd like to look at your manuscript. You'd be surprised how many will, if you ask them nicely!

I just thought of something else, mainly as a result of my not being very good at it. I've written books, with very descriptive words; yet I'm cheeze-whiz whenever I'm asked to describe what I've written. Just like there are elevator pitches, you should have an elevator description handy, one which gives a succinct but thorough and accurate picture of your book. The better you are able to express this information, the more success you're likely to have when presenting it to editors, booksellers, reviewers, etc.

Absolutely, Joel. It's something I need to work on too.

I find all marketing an impossible subject, to be honest.

I'd give my eye teeth for an affordable, successful expert.

Will wrote: "I find all marketing an impossible subject, to be honest.

I'd give my eye teeth for an affordable, successful expert."

Sounds painful - how about just giving them a lock of your hair? :-)

One of the things I've found important for selling books is getting reviews. Someone I'm acquainted with (he runs a local writers group oriented to marketing and selling self-published books) has created a site for authors called TheHiddenAuthor.com. Authors join for a small fee (which is just to encourage engagement) and can list their books. The kicker is, once you're registered, you are expected to review four other authors' books. This way, people get reviews as well as having their book listed. There's more, and the site, being new, will continue to grow (he's asked me to contribute to it). I think it's worth checking out and considering. Here's a link, in case you're interested:

http://www.thehiddenauthor.com/index....

Anyone have any experience (or heard of) crowd-funding publishing their book?

I tried to get funding on Kickstarter for a book on the subway dogs in Moscow. I had a nice video of the dogs and had my amount set at $15,000. I wanted funds for the travel expenses and possibly printing. I got some pledges from Russian models as there was a scandal involving a model killing a subway dog. It is mostly friends, family, and your own personal efforts with all parts of social media that make it happen. I was disappointed I didn't reach my goal.

Zach Braff got funding for a movie, and a guy got funding to eat grilled cheese sandwiches. There are many cases like this where it seems like a mockery of the service. There is an application process, but it seems pretty random what they put on their site.

There are other funding sites that don't require you to provide incentives and tracking of progress. (Many people who are funded don't follow up,) I donated to a camera maker in Croatia and was surprised when I received the fantastic camera.

I think crowd-funding sites may have run their course as they became over-run with proposals. I have seen requests for editing funds from writers. I have not seen any of them reach their goals.

It is very hard to score a reputable publisher. People who work for them have told me you have to wow them on your first paragraph. No one is reading 10,000 manuscripts a year. They are touching them and dumping them. Your query letter has to demonstrate you have written something that fits in with what they are pushing at that time. Then you have to get past the first paragraph test. You can have an interesting story that unfolds gradually, but you are dead to them.

I get around that by making the core of my story more about the main character. That keeps the reader hooked while the plot unfolds....at least in theory.

It is almost impossible to make an money with self-publishing, but I am going to stick with it because my name looks so pretty on the cover of a book.

Found this online, and it's pretty consistent with what an editor I'm in the acquisition process with has told me:

http://www.underdown.org/acquisition-...

Joel wrote: "Found this online, and it's pretty consistent with what an editor I'm in the acquisition process with has told me:

http://www.underdown.org/acquisition-..."

Interesting article.

I know several people who have hooked up with vanity publishers, and it reminds me how important it is for authors to understand the publishing world and its pitfalls. These publishers make the writer think their manuscript has been chosen on its merits. With the technology for on-demand printing, it is easy for them to make a profit off of the sales to the author only. A red flag was when the contract included purchase of an agreed upon number of books. Now they are not saying that but assuming the author will buy books for at least friends and family. sneaky bastards... (I never say anything to someone who has gone that route because I know how easy it is to be discouraged.)

Joel wrote: "Found this online, and it's pretty consistent with what an editor I'm in the acquisition process with has told me:

http://www.underdown.org/acquisition-..."

That was a great article - thanks for posting, Joel

For self-publishers, I'm a big advocate for making print copies of your book available for people like me who don't e-read. A big part of the selection process for a P.O.D. publisher should be what the minimum price they'll allow your paperback to be sold for is. Many price their books too high for anyone to want to buy them. I've seen standard-sized novels priced as much as $25., when the typical novel goes for less than half that. Saving money on the initial publishing isn't a bargain if you won't be able to sell any overpriced books.

Joel wrote: "For self-publishers, I'm a big advocate for making print copies of your book available for people like me who don't e-read. A big part of the selection process for a P.O.D. publisher should be what..."

I prefer print copies, but it seems most people don't. Yesterday I had a list of books I wanted to order, and the least expensive book on the list was $33 (all fiction soft cover). It hasn't been that long since I ordered books -what happened? I didn't order any of those books. Outrageous!

The free download days are good for getting some readers and reviews, and Createspace recommends pricing which is very low.

There should be a respected publisher who does predictably good books for a fraction of the cost. ..in an imaginary world...

That price point is why I've been pretty happy with Createspace. I can sell my mysteries for $12 or 13, and still make a bit of profit. My kids books can go a bit cheaper still, since they have fewer pages and are cheaper to produce.

Here's another resource for writers:

http://www.writersandeditors.com/awar...

Joel wrote: "Here's another resource for writers:

http://www.writersandeditors.com/awar..."

Thanks, Joel. Looks like some good stuff in there.

Brena wrote: "Joel wrote: "For self-publishers, I'm a big advocate for making print copies of your book available for people like me who don't e-read. A big part of the selection process for a P.O.D. publisher s..."

$33 dollars. That is one expensive 'soft cover' book.

Guy wrote: "Brena wrote: "Joel wrote: "For self-publishers, I'm a big advocate for making print copies of your book available for people like me who don't e-read. A big part of the selection process for a P.O...."

Isn't it though? How I became a famous novelist - even the ebook was expensive.

Came across this which (mostly) discusses strategy for running your KDP Select freebie days. I hadn't really thought in terms of real strategy for giveaways before, so I found this somewhat interesting.
Not sure how I'd feel about doing another giveaway, having found my books listed on a number of free download sites (obviously without my permission), but I have sold books after running them, so who knows?

http://tylerbasu.com/the-book-launch-...

I've had the same issue with free download sites. However, I'm a slow learner, so I'll be doing a KDP giveaway of 4 of mine (all the Spanish translations) Sept 14-16. So this is VERY helpful info - thanks for posting it!