Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is our discussion of the Contemporary Sci-Fi novel...


Leviathan Wakes by James S.A. Corey


Nominated for both the Hugo and Locus Awards in 2012.

Just a little extra information on v & the Expanse series:

James S. A. Corey is a pseudonym for Daniel Abraham & Ty Franck.

The Expanse series, which begins with Leviathan Wakes (which is a stand-alone story in its own right), currently comprises five novels and several backstory Novella:

Primary novels:
Leviathan Wakes
Caliban's War
Abaddon's Gate

Cibola Burn
Nemesis Games
Babylon's Ashes (coming in 2016)

Persepolis Rising
Tiamat's Wrath


Although this is a running series (and the novel should be read in order), each novel offers a self-contained story.

The "extra material", in the form of novella, include:

The Butcher of Anderson Station - Historical: the story of Fred Johnson (head of the OPA) at Anderson Station.

Gods of Risk - A story of Bobbie Draper back on Mars after Caliban's War (Bobbie is introduced in the 2nd book.)

The Churn - Historical: the backstory of one of the major characters when he was still on Earth (I didn't name the character, because the novella camouflages which characters background is getting told for much of the story.)

Drive - Historical: the story of how Solomon Epstein created the "Epstein Drive", a high-efficiency fusion rocket engine mentioned in the first chapter of Leviathan Wakes.

The Vital Abyss - A story of the bad guys.


A TV series based on The Expanse will debut on the US SyFy network in December as a miniseries.

I have mixed feelings about the novel. While I have several issues with it, I can understand how others might enjoy it a lot. If characters are important, you may find it pretty weak. If you only want an entertaining read, this may hit the spot.

I give it three stars.

I like this novel a great deal. (And I think the subsequent stories actually get even better as they go along.)

I've read all the material I listed above, liked all of it to varying degrees (the novella are a bit drier, more historical feel-in whose outcomes are predetermined by comments made in the novels.)

It's a space opera in the classic style, but updated for more modern baseline technology, science and sensibilities. It has a comfortable, well-worn setting, the kind of universe Heinlein or Clarke or Anderson or Niven might have used, a solar system populated by a limited number of humans, dominated by an Earth government (represented by the UN), an independent Mars (so far smaller and economically and militarily dominated by Earth), and a bunch of independent-minded, cantankerous asteroid miners and their outer planet support teams, collectively the belters. There are a number of dwarf planets, such as Ceres & Vesta, but have been tunneled out for human habitation as stone space stations. (When I was young, we call these big asteroids, but you know how those pointy-headed astronomers like to change the taxonomy when they can't manage to learn anything actually interesting.)

I thought the characters work just fine. No complaints from me:

Holden is a bit of an idealist, a man whose first instinct is to put everything he learns on wikileaks.

Miller is a cynical cop becoming a cynical private investigator. He's getting a little too emotionally involved looking for "poor little rich girl" Julie Mau.

I'm currently re-reading the story, which is a lot of fun since I already know who's going to survive into the later novels and who's going to die in the cold vacuum of space.

I like some of the little asides in the narration. Such as the fact that belters tend to make expansive hand gestures as they speak, the better to be seen when in environment suits. Or that everybody whispers when they're hiding, even in an environment suit surrounded by vacuum. It adds a nice sense of verisimilitude to the space opera setting.

What I like best about the novel is that it creates a real sense of being there. You feel it, you smell it, you become a part of it. And the action sequences are very good.

However:

We are told repeatedly that Holden is somewhat idealistic. I found him self-righteous and naive. While Miller may be a cliche of the washed-up alcoholic cop, he is at least sympathetic.

Leviathan Wakes is much better, IMO, than Caliban's War and Abaddon's Gate. I found the plot for Abaddon's Gate so contrived that I completely lost interest in the series.

I plan to watch the first episode on Sy-Fy, although from the preview I don't have much hope for the series. Believe me, I really want to be wrong.

this read to me like a continuation of "the moon is a harsh mistress" that kept all the quirks i liked.

the mixture of races and names/last names rings true to me as the conflict "us vs them" evolves into what planet you were born on not what continent. same for the races, no longer skin color but the length of your limbs and the size of your head that is somehow different and thus is unattractive.

the vocabulary, both technical and descriptive, was accessible. i didn't have to scrunch up my face and try to image what i was reading, it seemed to come naturally. plus, the added bonus of "throwing rocks" which tickled my fancy back when i read TMiaHM.

i felt the plot was a bit weak. things just kept happening without much buildup or foreshadowing or an eventual climax of resolution. everything had the same 'pace' to it, without a larger structure.

i prefer my SciFi to have deep themes, Leviathan Wakes failed to deliver on that front. there was some hinting at a deeper discussion about morality and humanity and justice, but it never got beyond being mentioned. i would have liked to see a deeper conversation on the topic of Miller pulling the trigger.

characterization felt shallow. the whole "washed up cop" description took me by surprise. before he said he felt like a failure i thought he was a decent guy, good at his job, that takes care of his partner. i still don't know how the two male crew members differ. and the romance development by the skirt chaser felt out of place.

with all those terrible things said, i enjoyed the book. 4 stars. i will keep reading the series and give the show a chance.

G33, looking for advice. Should I read this one first or Hyperion?

I don't have TV, so I don't really care about the television program...

Amelia wrote: "G33, looking for advice. Should I read this one first or Hyperion?..."

I don't really know how to make that call for you, Amelia. They're both excellent novels. Hyperion is longer, and is more a sci-fi rendition of the Canterbury Tales, with a group of pilgrims taking a journey to a religious site where strange things happen, each sharing their story of why they need to make the dangerous journey. Leviathan Wakes is more traditional space opera, one in which more stuff happens. I think both are well worth your time to read, And in the long run you might just as well flip a coin to decide which goes first.

the grunt said 'clip whore' and the transcript read 'clipper'. Miller corrected it,

As someone who uses voice dictation in his writing, I just wanted to say how much I appreciated this little tiny droplet of verisimilitude. I wonder if Abraham or Franck use Dragon Dictate, too?

I really love this series, this first book hooked me strong and I've been enjoying the ride.

I really liked Miller from the start, despite his being such a cliché version of the burned out cop. I think he just seemed so lost, so out of touch with everything, that his taking up the quest to find Julie Mao made a weird kind of sense. No one with a normal life would have bothered to pursue her disappearance like he does.

Holden, well, Holden is such an idiot! I just wanted to smack him several times, yet I had to admire his stubborn naiveté and idealism. And his crew, while not given enough "screen time" here, at least seem to think he's crazy too, but a good guy overall.

I'm very glad that we get scenes from Julie's POV so that she's not just a "woman in a fridge" motivation.

And the ending - was not expecting that at all.

I hope people will continue reading the series, there are some more awesome characters (Avarsarala and Bobbie!) to come and plenty of fleshing out of the ones we've already met. Plus the overarching storyline takes another giant step forward in each book, while keeping the focus on the characters.

I will say though - the next book starts out a bit jarring as we get some totally new character's POVs before we get back to the Rocinante.

Okay. So, I read this book, and I found it to be pretty bad. I will certainly not be continuing the series, no matter what anyone says, and I'll attempt to lay out why.

Partly I feel like I was misled about this book's science fiction content, since I can't recall any interesting or original science fictional ideas in there. Maybe I just don't like space opera, who knows. I thought I did, because I like some books labelled space opera, but maybe I actually don't like the genre. The setting didn't feel new, but rather familiar and there was no new spin put on the old belters trope that other authors have written so many times.

The protagonist's girlfriend and kindly old mentor getting fridged at the beginning of the novel in order to provide motivation for one of the heroes did not sit well with me. In fact both main characters relied on a story of dead women as a replacement for actually getting characterization, which I was hoping was unacceptably lazy writing for this day and age.

This felt more like reading Ludlum or Dan Brown than science fiction. There's lots of action happening, and every chapter seemed to end on some cliffhanger, but what was the point? For me to enjoy what I'm reading, just a story is not enough. I couldn't find a heart or soul in here, or any big idea or thesis that the authors wanted to convey other than "We want to write the ASOIAF of sci-fi and get insanely rich."

My initial reaction upon finishing the book was more neutral, that it was mediocre space opera, but as weeks went by I liked it less and less as I thought about how manipulative and trope-filled the book was.

Michele wrote: "I really love this series, this first book hooked me strong and I've been enjoying the ride.

I really liked Miller from the start, despite his being such a cliché version of the burned out cop. I ..."

Michele, I notice on IMDB that Avasarala will be one of the main characters during the first season. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3230854/?...

Sarah wrote: "Michele wrote: "I really love this series, this first book hooked me strong and I've been enjoying the ride.

I really liked Miller from the start, despite his being such a cliché version of the bu..."

Yes, I'm super excited to watch the show, and I think they chose a perfect actress to play her. I think it's good they're starting her in the first season, because she becomes very important to the overall story.

I thought Miller was the most relatable character, though there was room for more development. One thing I annoying, although maybe this was an issue with the plot. More than once he made discoveries that I thought were already known.

It really amazes me how consistent the author's voice is in this book, considering the author is more than one guy. Despite the bulk, this was a quick read. I definitely noticed the same style (and some of the strengths & weaknesses) as the short story "Drive," which we read awhile back & was the only thing I'd read of Corey's. I enjoyed the book. (So far, the opening of Caliban's War is not quite as catchy as Leviathan's, but I'm still along for the ride. I found it amusing that the "extras" in the back includes an interview where "Corey" says the third book in the Expanse will be titled Dandelion Sky. Think the PR people intervened there?)

The balance of power issues between factions with a common ancestry but different cultures (and the miners/asteroid workers versus in-system folks dynamic) reminded me of some of C.J. Cherryh's Alliance-Union books, like Downbelow Station, Heavy Time, and Rimrunners.

I liked most of the details on Belter culture but was frustrated that I couldn't figure out the dialect more consistently! (caught some of the German bits OK; wonder how that stuff's handled in translations of the novel)

Characterization here is an interesting thing. Count me as a Miller partisan. Holden & Miller didn't strike me as really that different as characters. Sure they made different decisions, but their "inner voices" or POVs read very different to me. Once we started getting the two perspectives on the same events (spoiler: they meet up!), the differences became more pronounced -- but it still seemed more disagreement than difference. Which is why it seemed kinda funny (but also interesting) that Miller's POV ended up SO dark compared to Holden.

Starting the book (after Julie's prologue) in Holden's point of view was interesting, because I was pretty much on board and expecting -- and then Holden reacts to the book's first inciting incident & I could only think "man, that seems like a bad decision." Usually, the sci-fi hero is portrayed as ultracompetent & strategic, and I thought it was an interesting choice to not to paint Holden that way. (Very early I was thinking, they passed over promoting Naomi for this guy? Later in the novel, she goes out of the way to praise Holden for decisions she wouldn't have made or wanted to make, which struck me as the author selling us Holden's captaincy skills a little too hard.)

Speaking of Naomi, the women (and in several cases, the relationships between some of the female and male characters) struck me as one of the weakest aspects of the novel. I was happy -- or at least almost happy -- (view spoiler)[ when Julie turned up actually dead, because I was more than a little sick of Miller's crush on a chick after reading a couple of her emails. I thought it was too bad that Julie's martial arts had to be based in her being "attacked" some time after she moved to the Belt. & the Julie-hallucination-that-I-speak-to just came off just came off as a somewhat clunky authorial effort to spice up Miller's internal monologues with some dialogues while reminding the reader of the character of Julie -- Miller came off as pretty down, sure, but I didn't really buy he could remain fairly active & competent while regularly hallucinating. Sure, maybe he'd picture her now & then, but conversations? The fact that Julie became so prominent actually had me predicting something similar to what happens at the very end. (hide spoiler)]

Plot-wise, I enjoyed the mystery component even though it wasn't really a clue-dropping kind of mystery. The book seemed clearly built around about four or five big set/action pieces (view spoiler)[ 1) explosion of Canterbury, 2) Ceres riot, 3) Eros hotel shootout, Holden & Miller's meet cute 4) escape from Eros, 5) raid on Thoth, 6) destroying Eros (hide spoiler)] & it'll be interesting to see how the TV adaptation handles them.

In terms of big ideas, it worked for me that some issues are raised more for the reader than discussed by the characters. I think it's probably more fun for me to debate with one of you over whether Miller or Holden made the better or more ethical choice than to have the characters spend too much time on it. (view spoiler)[I'm mostly with Miller, though it might vary a bit on the circumstance. I felt like the book/author as a whole was pushing the pro-Holden agenda, what with him surviving into Book 2 & Miller making the Holden-like save-the-potentially-murderous-semialien-lifeform decision. Or maybe the author tried to cheat and endorse both POVs? (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: Michele, I notice on IMDB that Avasarala will be one of the main characters during the first season. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3230854/?...

It's interesting to look at the cast list now that I've read Leviathan. Of them all, Amos looks the least like I had imaged, which was much older & black. (OK, my Holden & Miller didn't look much like those two, either.) And wasn't Ade Nigerian in the book? Did I imagine that?

I notice there are a lot of Mormon cast for just one episode & that Muss' first name is Octavia (that was probably in there somewhere). I don't see a Dresden listed, but there are a few actors listed without character names attached.

Hillary, I find it difficult to think much about the ethics of the pulled-trigger scene because I can’t escape the feeling that Holden’s reaction was only about propelling the plot and Miller into the conclusion.

I am very curious to see how the big scenes are handled in the series. This will probably keep me watching even if SyFy drives me crazy.

Dea wrote: "The whole "washed up cop" description took me by surprise. before he said he felt like a failure i thought he was a decent guy, good at his job, that takes care of his partner....."

I think that's a question of self-image. The Miller story is told from Miller's subjective point of view (3rd person). There is a moment (I think shortly after Miller gets fired) when he realizes he's "that guy" the captain gives assignments to when she doesn't really want them done, just keep the deadwood out of the way. Up until then, he thought of himself as a good detective who was simply coasting, but still competent. Afterwards, he embraces the freedom to stop pretending and go on a bender.


Dea wrote: "I still don't know how the two male crew members differ...."

Alex is Martian, former Martian Marine, the crew pilot, the smart, analytical one. Amos, on the other hand, is an Earther, contained violence just waiting for someone to point out a target. I don't think this novel focuses very much on either of them separately, so they do tend to blur.

All the male characters here are Real Men, doing manly things. No doubt the space stations' environment systems have to work overtime extracting testosterone. But then, I suppose you'd have to expect that given the kinds of jobs they chosen.

Brendan wrote: "The setting didn't feel new, but rather familiar and there was no new spin put on the old belters trope that other authors have written so many times..."

As I mentioned in an earlier post, yes, the setting is familiar. It's one of the standard space opera universes, the one limited to the solar system [1]. I think everyone uses it because it's fairly logical: good old Earth, various levels of colonization on planets, the Jovians and Titan, and the cliché cantankerous asteroid miners. (Older novels used to dump colonies on Venus, too, until the Russians proved it was far too hot to even keep a probe on. KSR's 2312 went back and populated both Venus and Mercury, the former by building a giant umbrella and space to keep the sun off, the latter by putting entire cities on giant railroad tracks. Neither seems economically viable, but the cost curves may change in 300 years. :)

If I were to modify that standard science fiction solar system today, I think I dropped the asteroid miners. As fun as such icons of bravery, freedom and adventure are to read about, current signs point to automated robotic mining operations. (A population of 6 million on Ceres seems a bit optimistic.) However, a story about a bunch of automated probes wandered around the solar system, all coordinated at JPL, doesn't seem like a very exciting main story.

To me, using this setting for a new story is in the same category as the standard horse opera Western setting, or the familiar medieval Europe Heroic Fantasy setting, or the standard military boot camp. Some are more closely tied to reality than others.

The "new sci-fi thought" in Leviathan Wakes is (view spoiler)[ using self-replicating "proto-molecules" or nanobots as a way for aliens to explore the galaxy efficiently: light weight and self-dispersing, though having an incredibly long time line, presumably a race that's really, really patient. And the question, just what does it plan to do now that it's found organic life in our solar system? Ultimately, this is a first-contact only gone sideways. (hide spoiler)]

*[1] the other, interstellar model generally involves some faster than light technology involving hyperspace with its own internal topology or similar handwaving, generally with fixed jump points well outside the stellar gravity wells, because otherwise tactical/military stories are impossible to make entertaining. I think that standard SF model been used by even more authors than the more realistic solar system only model.

(view spoiler)[I would argue that grey goo is not exactly a new sci-fi thought. Grey goo that produces vomit zombies is probably new, but I'm not a zombie fan so that wasn't very compelling either. This book felt to me like a prelude to a first contact story, but I'm fine with leaving it to others to enjoy. (hide spoiler)]

Just saw a second trailer for the series. This one gives a better idea of where they are going with the story. https://youtu.be/fh6m8rwiT-Q

Brendan wrote: "Okay. So, I read this book, and I found it to be pretty bad. I will certainly not be continuing the series, no matter what anyone says, and I'll attempt to lay out why."

was this marketed as ASOIAF?

i totally agree with you on the whole lack of characterization and shoehorning in women as 'character development'. especially now that you point it out i am acutely aware of lack of any strong female characters.

you are right, this does read like dan brown of scifi. easy exciting romp in space without much substance to sink your teeth into. :/

All the male characters here are Real Men, doing manly things. No doubt the space stations' environment systems have to work overtime extracting testosterone. But then, I suppose you'd have to expect that given the kinds of jobs they chosen.

lols

my issue with not knowing miller was a washed up cop was the fact that it felt like course correction. sure, we are only reading it from his POV but i feel there should have been hints that wouldn't have left me wondering where this plot twist came from.

same with the 2 male crew. even if the focus isn't on them i shouldn't have to pause to wonder who they are when i am 75% into the book. before that the doctor confused me too. hell, i don't even have a mental image of holden or miller in my head...

I'll agree that Amos & Alex could have been more fleshed out. For me, the first time that Amos jumped out (or that I even really remembered his name) was when he meets Miller's eyes during an action-y sequence and Miller reflects that he & Amos are both prepping for a military/SWAT-style forced entry. So Amos is the mechanic with the instincts of the "muscle." He's also from Baltimore -- which I couldn't help but interpret in terms of 20th/21st C demographics. (I have no idea how populations may have shifted by the time when Leviathan is set; at least the East Coast isn't underwater!)

Alex is described in the very beginning as "ebullient," which is a big adjective to live up to. I don't see any ebullience in action in the book. Understandably, the events would put a big damper on someone's spirit, but still, there could have been hints. So I trusted Alex was an optimistic but more b/c I was told to than b/c I really felt it. Mostly, he provides the Martian military tips & shows a military professionalism in his small moments (which might be interesting paire w/ebullience ... though we never really see it). Alex drives the getaway car.

I do disagree that there are no strong female characters -- I thought Naomi was a strong character even though I thought she was defined a bit too much by her relationship w/Holden (& there were a few aspects of the relationship I didn't completely buy) and spent a little too much time boosting his ego. More by-the-book (but also generally just more of a perfectionist) than Holden, but also more logical & strategic as a thinker.

Dea wrote: "All the male characters here are Real Men, doing manly things. No doubt the space stations' environment systems have to work overtime extracting testosterone. But then, I suppose you'd have to expe..."

I characterized Miller that way, don't think the novel did. I saw him as the hard-living somewhat jaded type that is often seen in TV detective shows. A&E's Longmire comes close to what I'm talking about. In the first season, which was all I watched, everybody thinks he should retire. I see Miller as more of a character type than a character.

Dea wrote: "was this marketed as ASOIAF?..."

The book didn't, but when SyFy Announced the TV series, they pitched it as Game of Thrones in Space in their press release.

The book didn't, but when SyFy Announced the TV series, they pitched it as Game of Thrones in Space in their press release."

oh boy, that doesn't give me much promise that they won't let the series crash and burn ><

thanks!

Dea wrote: "The book didn't, but when SyFy Announced the TV series, they pitched it as Game of Thrones in Space in their press release."

oh boy, that doesn't give me much promise that they won't let the series crash and burn ..."

I don't quite know what you'd consider "crash and burn".

There are a great many political machinations going on in the background of Leviathan Wakes, it's just that none of our point of view characters are involved in those politics, so we simply find out about the decisions/consequences when the characters do.

As noted above, SyFy has decided to introduce UN bigwig Avasarala earlier in the show than the novels do (she doesn't appear until Caliban's War.) In doing so, they have the opportunity to expand on the novels by going backstage into those politics.

(view spoiler)[For example, at one point in Leviathan Wakes, both Holden and Miller are confined to sick bay for a week or two for treatment from radiation poisoning. During that time, thanks to some information Holden uploaded to wikileaks, Earth and Mars are at war. There's obviously a story there, which rather than have the characters later speculate about, could be played out on-screen using Avasarala. Might add something to the story, or might just slow the whole thing down. (hide spoiler)]

Hillary wrote: "the Julie-hallucination-that-I-speak-to just came off just came off as a somewhat clunky authorial effort to spice up Miller's internal monologues with some dialogues while reminding the reader of the character of Julie..."

Well, since you've read book 2 (as I recall), you know you're in for more talking to imaginary friends. it's just the talkees change.

Hillary wrote: "I think it's probably more fun for me to debate with one of you over whether Miller or Holden made the better or more ethical choice than to have the characters spend too much time on it. [I'm mostly with Miller, though it might vary a bit on the circumstance...."

SPOILERS

One of the main issues Holden and Miller seem to disagree on is openness. Should Holden have released what information he had (initially, about the destruction of the Scopuli by torpedoes with Martian military markings; then later about the Earth-manufacturing signatures of the six ships that destroyed the Martian's Donnager.) Sometimes it's hard to know whether your transmitting information because you want to make sure it gets out if you die, and sometimes you just can't resist a Tweet.

I think I side with Holden on those. Problem with keeping those kinds of secrets and waiting for "them" to investigate and find out all the facts is that nobody trusts "them" anyway, and we all just assume it's going to be a cover-up, whatever it is. (Miller's position on that is certainly understandable, given that he was stuck in the middle of dealing with the repercussions of those revelations on Ceres.)

On another issue, it did really surprise me when Miller shot Dresden. After all, Miller was a cop, and he even told Holden a story about the dangers of vigilante justice before all the facts are in. When he broke into the control room, even shouted, "you're all under arrest!" Then, suddenly he executes his prisoner. On the other hand, perhaps Dresden had adequately convicted himself. I think the silver-tongued sociopath might've been more dangerous if the got out then the proto-molecule. (History is full of sociopathic demagogues who somehow managed to convince otherwise rational people to do terrible things.)

SPOILERS

I was surprised when Miller shot Dresden, but boy, did I cheer. Everything that guy said was right - he would have managed to walk away free from the whole disaster, probably to just do it all over again. There was no way he was going to pay for all the lives he ended with his experiment, and he had absolutely no remorse. I think he deserved to die, and I was glad Miller had gotten to that point where he saw clearly and he acted and he didn't give a damn anymore

I think my problem with Holden was that he had absolutely no realistic notion of what people would do with his information. The fact is, if you announce that you found a bomb that seems to have been made on Mars - you're going to start a war with Mars.

Does he know if that bomb was stolen? Or faked? Or sold off for some boring reason? No. And instead of informing just the people who can investigate quietly, he makes a YouTube viral video. So people, being people, jump to conclusions, make assumptions, lump together, stereotype, fabricate, get outraged, demand retaliation, attack - humanity, en masse, becomes a mob very easily. And usually a mob doesn't think very clearly or wisely.

And then, after seeing the big mess he made with his first announcement - he does it again, more than once. Holden's just a bull in a china shop. Eventually he does bash his way through everything, but was it necessary to make such a mess on the way? Maybe, but wow - I've rarely wanted to punch a character as often as I did Holden.

I don't quite know what you'd consider "crash and burn".

kinda like how every book to come after "hunger games" was like the next "hunger games". and every book/show to come out after "harry potter" was like "harry potter in X". it is this attempt to capitalize on an already successful franchise to get more people interested, instead of letting the series stand on it's own.

it is as if ASOIAF was like a fine gouda cheese, and instead of saying "try this new vanilla bean icecream" it is "you like gouda right? well this stuff is made out of the same stuff only frozen and sweet, but totally like gouda cheese!!"

i hope i am making sense...

I'm looking forward to it. I've only managed to get twenty pages in as yet. I'm struggling to get through the Three Body Problem first.

Also, mine came with a barnacle book attached for free ! Have you ever had this happen before? Leviathan Wakes came with "free full text of The Dragon's Path by Daniel Abraham

It isn't done often, but since Daniel Abraham is one-half of "James SA Corey" it kind of makes sense :)

Huh. Thanks,Michelle.

Thing is, it's an ebook, and it's stuck to the back end of LW, makes LW look like 900+ page book. So, once I forget LW, I will also forget whatever that other book was by the guy who cowrote, but didn't use his real name for no reason other than to be a clever pants! *blows raspberry*. Whatever. Into the black home of the Nook Library it goes!!!

Amelia wrote: "Huh. Thanks,Michelle.

Thing is, it's an ebook, and it's stuck to the back end of LW, makes LW look like 900+ page book. So, once I forget LW, I will also forget whatever that other book was by the..."

I'm confused - Daniel Abraham is his real name, "James SA Corey" is a name he and Ty Frank made up for the Expanse series they write together. And the idea is obviously - if you liked LW then you might like The Dragon's Path. So it's free and maybe some people will read it also. And then they might buy the rest of that series. Seems a painless marketing tactic.

You seem irritated about this for some reason. Easy enough to not read the other story, and it's not like you were charged anything for it.

No, no...not irritated about the free. I was confused about it. What I'm bugged about is the way it was attached and the general crap library format of the Nook will mean it gets buried and lost. It isn't retrievable in a search either by author or title.

SPOILERS

I think there's a much stronger argument to be made for releasing the info about the apparently-Martian black box than for Holden's first act of impulsive transparency. In the middle of a shootout, he just flings the personnel files of all the casualties back at the shooter to make them feel bad. No thought about what kind of intel those records might contain or that it might not be the best idea in the world for the enemy to know exactly who survived & who didn't ...

Plus, if Holden was really about transparency, shouldn't he be arguing that everyone should be sharing ? Instead of fighting to keep that safe on board the Rocinante?

Dresden ... I think the decision to shoot Dresden seems justified in the world of the novel ... I definitely feel like the author is arguing it's justified. The execution seemed in character for Miller to me, and if Miller & Holden were both being swayed by Silvertongue, perhaps the danger warranted an execution (he certainly would have been convicted of war crimes by any objective tribunal/jury). I didn't find Dresden's Amazing Silver Tongue as a story device to be that convincing, though. All of these professional adults are just under the sway of his argument? None of them are thinking, Sure; Dresden may have a point about needing to be aware of this bio/tech, but that's all the more reason to try it first on lots of vats of rats? Everyone is buying or being rapidly persuaded to buy the human-experiments-justifies-the-end argument? Because rhetoric is mightier than than the gun?

SPOILERS

Hillary wrote: "In the middle of a shootout, he just flings the personnel files of all the casualties back at the shooter to make them feel bad. No thought about what kind of intel those records might contain or that it might not be the best idea in the world for the enemy to know exactly who survived & who didn't ......"

Holden return to that theme later on, at the very end of the novel, the idea of seeing casualties as individuals:

“That’s what got us here,” Holden said. “Icons. Symbols. People without names. All of those Protogen scientists were thinking about biomass and populations. Not Mary who worked in supply and raised flowers in her spare time. None of them killed her.”
“You think they wouldn’t have?”
“I think if they were going to, they owed it to her to know her name. All their names.

I loved Leviathan Wakes as much as anything I've read in a long time. The science is as realistic as most Kim Stanley Robinson books. Sure, there is some technological hand waving but we are talking about science "fiction" here people.

I don't like Jim Holden but people like him exist. He is naive, arrogant and a bit stupid. He is also handsome and charismatic (to the other characters if not to the reader). We all know people like that in our real lives. Miller is just a top notch grizzled detective who is down on his luck and a bit of a loose canon. Cliche? Maybe, but it's only a cliche because so many people enjoy that kind of character.

The most important source of enjoyment for me is plot and pacing. I don't need page after page of the third character's backstory or an in depth description of every mountain, room or (in this case) spaceship paint job. Tell me who everyone is, where are they going, why are they going there, and what do they hope to achieve. And then let's go. These two authors excel at that kind of pacing.

This book is long but I read it pretty quickly and didn't get bogged down in the middle third like I do with most stories. I couldn't wait to come home from work and read this book. That's the highest compliment I can give.

SPOILERS

G33z3r wrote: "Holden return to that theme later on, at the very end of the novel, the idea of seeing casualties as individuals ..."

But in this case, all of those Protogen scientists were literally psychopaths, so knowing those names wasn't really gonna make an impact, was it?

But to be fair, the board members who had to OK the experiments including the recruitment of those scientists probably weren't psychopaths. (This question is interesting, I think, in terms of how the Mao family is portrayed in subsequent books.)

But, if Holden doesn't know the scientists are psychopaths, he feels like he's doing all he can in the memory of his friends, right? At least that's what it felt like to me. I'm not saying he's my favorite character. He's not really that smart, compared to Naomi, and I'm more attached to Miller as a character. But, I get it. He's doing the best that he can with what he has, brains wise and information/ability/opportunity wise.

This book has been on my to read list fro a long , long time. I was finally going to read it bit then i heard that they are making a Tv series which launches next year. So I figure I'll just watch that instead.

Holden is a bit much sometimes. Miller was right about one thing- he does not know when to keep his mouth shut. Discretion is the better part of valor, after all. That said, I do love him and Naomi together. She keeps him from doing anything too over the top. Took him way too long to wise up to her considerable charms.

Miller's having a mid-life crisis, Belter-style. Divorced, having lost his job, of course he gets obsessed with the pretty-girl puzzle that's his last real case and of course he runs across the galaxy to solve it. The case is his life.

I did not like this book at all, and I doubt I will continue this seriers. It actually took me two months to get through this. Maybe I had too high hopes after the high praise it has received. So disappointed by the story, and the audiobook. I can bare a bad audiobook if I like the story. Also, I turned this audiobook in for a refund halfway through, not a chapter too soon. Not sure if one or two stars; I feel one is too harsh.

Kjell-W wrote: "I did not like this book at all, and I doubt I will continue this seriers. It actually took me two months to get through this. Maybe I had too high hopes after the high praise it has received. So d..."

Sorry you didn't like it. It's one of my favorite all time SF series.

The Jonathan Mays audiobooks are also held in pretty high regard, though I've only listened to one of them.

The first book was pretty good. Set up a lot of interesting stuff but I'm betting the series gets better, right? I have the next two books. Really need to read them sometime.

I really liked it, but didn't continue listening to the series. I thought the first book stood alone very well. I did continue watching it on TV, though. That's been a good show.

Book Nerd wrote: "The first book was pretty good. Set up a lot of interesting stuff but I'm betting the series gets better, right? I have the next two books. Really need to read them sometime."

I'm all caught up through #8, Tiamat's Wrath.
I think the series has done a great job evolving its characters & cast & growing its universe and it goes along. The story is roughly divided into trilogies, each building on the last, and spanning decades. Neatly done space opera. (There are also a bunch of entertaining prequel novellas expanding on the characters' backgrounds.