Reading the Chunksters discussion

And the cornerstone is achieved - we have read half of this truly massive book, epic in its scope, fundamental in its values, and humane in its essence (with the only exception of digressions - this is not humane, M. Hugo:-) )

Marius is the only main figure of this section. Yes, there are other characters, new and recurring from the previous section, but we witness the development and struggles of Marius, a certain bildungsroman of sorts. Marius finds himself in a company of young intellectuals or men of letters and artists who discuss numerous painful questions: history, politics, religion, god/God. Sometimes, due to his love and respect for his deceased father, he finds himself at odds with other members of this 'club'.

1. What does it tell us about Marius? Why is the image of his father so dear to him?

2. What is the role of these salons or gatherings if you think the word 'salon' is too pompous for it? Are they an excessively French phenomenon due to a number of revolutions?

3. What does poverty do to Marius? Does it destroy him or forge him into a better man? How do we know that he is a better man at the end of books V and VI?

4. Marius is in love now with a beautiful young lady who was just an ugly duckling a couple of months ago. Is his behavior natural or obsessive?

5. Any bets who is this couple of a senior man with white hair and a beautiful young lady? Are there any clues in the novel? Why do they flee? Why are they afraid of snitches?

History is not a strong point with me, so I was a little confused by Marius' viewpoints. First, he was aligned with his Grandfather, who was a Royalist, right? Then he changed his views to align with his father's, who had a Revolutionist's view? That was my understanding, but please correct me if I'm wrong. So when Marius met his new young friends, I assumed he would have the same view as them. I did get the idea that there was conflict there, but I wasn't sure exactly why.

I do think his poverty made him a better person, as evidenced by his helping with the rent of the family who was to be kicked out due to late payments, and he did so anonymously. I liked the exact account of his income and daily spendings for each meal, and how much he spent on clothing and other things. I really like the small everyday details like this.

I found Marius' behavior towards the young girl (who must be Cosette, I'm assuming) to be totally natural. I liked how it was described the changes in his behavior without him really realizing it himself at first, such as when he first realized how he had let himself go by wearing such threadbare clothing and changed to dressing in his new suit. I loved the innocent observation between Marius and Cosette each day, and the minor trip ups every once in awhile, such as when Jean Valjean (I'm assuming) would show up without Cosette, and then Marius would leave right away. He was really drawn to Cosette whereas before he did not go out of his way to notice women at all.

Linda wrote: " First, he was aligned with his Grandfather, who was a Royalist, right? Then he changed his views to align with his father's, who had a Revolutionist's view? That was my understanding, but please correct me if I'm wrong. So when Marius met his new young friends, I assumed he would have the same view as them. I did get the idea that there was conflict there, but I wasn't sure exactly why. "

Correct, but I view this chapters as a certain bildungsroman, a coming-of-age novel, so Marius changes his views as he grows and learns new facts about his father and the big world. His grandfather was everything for him, his world. As he grows up, his exposure to the bigger world forms and forges his new principles and ideas. I think, using modern political term, one can say that his views were evolving.

Linda wrote: " I loved the innocent observation between Marius and Cosette each day, and the minor trip ups every once in awhile, such as when Jean Valjean (I'm assuming) would show up without Cosette, and then Marius would leave right away. He was really drawn to Cosette whereas before he did not go out of his way to notice women at all.
"
I like how Hugo is using other names for the same characters: everyone knows who they are, but for the sake of the literary game, Hugo sticks to the new names. :-) Commendable!

Linda- the French Revolution was not a single event. Instead, there was a stretch of time where several different types of government were tried. The monarchy was overthrown, the king and queen were executed, and a republic was instituted. Radicals (Jacobins), led by Robespierre, later started killing off political opponents. This was called The Reign of Terror. The Jacobins were overthrown in 1794, and Robespierre and other leaders of that government were executed. The Directory, a group of 5 directors, took over in 1795 and ruled for the next 4 years until they were in turn overthrown by Napoleon in a coup d'etat. Napoleon was called First Consul at first, then Emperor. He invaded neighboring countries in Europe until he was forced to abdicate his role as Emperor after a military defeat. He went into exile, but later came back and started leading troops into battle again. After his defeat at Waterloo, he went back into exile. The monarchy was reinstituted, but this time as a constitutional monarchy.

Phew, that's complicated, and I simplified a lot. Marius is a supporter of Napoleon, his grandfather is a royalist, and the ABC members are republicans (no relation to the US political party).

1. What does it tell us about Marius? Why is the image of his father so dear to him?
The image of his father is so dear to him because all he knows of his father is the idealized version he has gotten from other people's recollections and what he has inferred from reading history books. It is easy to see your father as "perfect" if you have never met him.

2. What is the role of these salons or gatherings if you think the word 'salon' is too pompous for it? Are they an excessively French phenomenon due to a number of revolutions?
The "salon" had its origins in Italy, and were very common for a couple centuries before the French Revolution. They were popular during the whole "Enlightenment Era". People used to get together to discuss science and politics and religion. They were especially popular in Paris, and many of the leaders of the French Revolution had met in salons.

3. What does poverty do to Marius? Does it destroy him or forge him into a better man? How do we know that he is a better man at the end of books V and VI?
Poverty forces Marius to grow up. At first, he is very caught up in his own pain over the loss of his father and his treatment by his grandfather. Over time, he eventually moves past it and goes to school, becomes a lawyer, and works for a living. He doesn't have much, but he is charitable when he can be. The paying of the rent for neighbors he doesn't even know was very kind.

4. Marius is in love now with a beautiful young lady who was just an ugly duckling a couple of months ago. Is his behavior natural or obsessive?
Both :) He has a huge crush on Cosette, and he doesn't quite know what to do. Since he has never had a relationship before, he fumbles along and makes a fool of himself. Unfortunately, her "father" gets nervous and they flee.

5. Any bets who is this couple of a senior man with white hair and a beautiful young lady? Are there any clues in the novel? Why do they flee? Why are they afraid of snitches?
From the very first moment they were introduced, it was obvious it was Cosette and Jean Valjean. Valjean probably thought that Marius was a detective or a spy for Javert, and he didn't want to get caught.

Anne wrote: " The paying of the rent for neighbors he doesn't even know was very kind."

Kudos to Marius, and it is a nice instrumental move in the plot for the next section. Hugo does not leave loose threads in his book, and I really love it.

Anne wrote: "Linda- the French Revolution was not a single event. Instead, there was a stretch of time where several different types of government were tried. The monarchy was overthrown, the king and queen w..."

Thanks so much for that condensed version, Anne! I appreciate you taking the time to clear up some of those points for me. And yes, even in the shortened version it is confusing to keep all straight. :) I didn't realize that Napoleon had gone into exile twice, so that was one confusing point for me.

Zulfiya wrote: "Hugo does not leave loose threads in his book, and I really love it. "

So true! Every bit of plot is used for some purpose later on.

I really liked the analysis from Cliff's Notes for this section, as parts of the politics got a bit overwhelming:

It will be noted that Marius' political evolution follows that of Hugo himself — from the royalism of his Breton mother to the mildly liberal Bonapartism of his heroic father to a firm devotion to Republican principles.

The description of how Marius lives on 700 francs a year is a passage straight out of Balzac's type of realism, and it has all the mathematical fascination of a well-worked-out equation. Marius however is not, and never will be, one of Les Misérables. Unlike Gavroche and Jean Valjean, he does not expect suffering from life; he chooses it and thereby adds a halo of glory to the rosy glow of youth that already surrounds him. Marius' natural environment is not the slums but the Luxembourg Gardens; he belongs to the world of the wealthy, the leisured, the fortunate, and no matter how shabby his pants, he always wears them like a gentleman.

In Marius, Victor Hugo is painting his own portrait as a young man — the same political views, appearance, and youthful struggles — but it is a fair portrait, not retouched. Hugo recognizes what is admirable in Marius — his integrity, his generosity, his imaginative fervor, his genuine idealism, and his capacity for feeling; but he does not extol them beyond measure, and he does not fail to point out Marius' faults: the unconscious cruelty with which he makes his grandfather suffer and the humor as well as the beauty of his grand passion. To fall in love forever, without a word spoken, on the strength of a single glance, is sublime — but it is also incredibly stupid, and so, in some respects, is Marius.

All that aside, his falling in love with Cosette is adorable and really cute to watch. "Twitterpated" is the word that comes to mind...

Alana wrote: "I really liked the analysis from Cliff's Notes for this section, as parts of the politics got a bit overwhelming:"

I occasionally read Cliff-notes, and I am surprised how much we reciprocate in our discussion, but I also like that very often we go further, much further in our discussions.

P.S. Hugo has a romantic flair, and Jean Valjean was quite a sexually appealing character, especially for women who were in their thirties and forties.

And another section down! I an still convinced that the family who Marius helped in his new building will turn out to be the Thenardiers using a fake name. I just wonder when this will be discovered. Funny he is looking for them and they are potentially right under his nose!

and yet another false name for Valjean ... I do think it obvious that these "father and daughter" are he and Cosette, the initials on the handkerchief match the fake name the gardener gave for "his brother" when Valjean and Cosette were admitted to the nuns sanctuary. but previously I thought that they were not leaving the sacred walls for fear of being seen... didn't it mention the old gardener was doing all the tasks that required leaving the walls even though his "younger brother"was in better health? so I was surprised to see them on a random, even though somewhat secluded, city bench.

I thought Marius' crush on Cosette was cite at first but he got quite creepy in the end of you ask me... turned into a bit of a stalker...

I do wonder if he does eventual meet up with the Thenardiers how his love for Cosette well line up with what he will surely hear about her from them, and how long it will take him to realize they are one in the same.

Finally i agree I was confused about the differing political beliefs of Marius and his friends. I really appreciate the explanation given here... thanks!

Deana wrote: "I thought Marius' crush on Cosette was cite at first but he got quite creepy in the end of you ask me... turned into a bit of a stalker..."


You nailed it - there is that slightly perceivable feeling of creepiness in his obsession to find her, to see her again, to personally meet her. Is that how passion ran in people where casual dating was not possible? :-)

Deana wrote: "and yet another false name for Valjean "

What's in a name? I am sure it is all intentional because we, readers, are expected to recognize Jean Valjean under different names and in different places. It seems like a character or characters in this book are larger than their personae. We recognize them sooner or later before their true identity is disclosed. Look at the Thenardiers. It took me a little bit longer to start suspecting them, but eventually I figured it out.

Zulfiya wrote: "Is that how passion ran in people where casual dating was not possible? :-) "


That's true - courting was certainly much different back then than it is today. I'm also reading Katherine, which has an even more different version of courtship. It's so difficult to imagine the relationships in times like these -- marrying someone you hardly know!

Still trying to catch up, since I discovered this group long after you started. As I'm having to read sections a lot faster, everyone's thoughts and explanations are so helpful to understanding this book. Thank you for explaining Marius' political struggles because I was really confused.
I was laughing at the part where he first discovers how pretty the girl is, dresses up, and starts strutting back and forth. I was imagining his behavior just like a preening peacock!

Lyndi wrote: "I was laughing at the part where he first discovers how pretty the girl is, dresses up, and starts strutting back and forth. I was imagining his behavior just like a preening peacock! "

Ha ha! I liked that part too, and your description of Marius as a peacock. :)