Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

Interesting article...


Physicists Claim that Consciousness Lives in Quantum State After Death -- http://www.outerplaces.com/science/it...


Does quantum mechanics predict the existence of a spiritual "soul"? Testimonials from prominent physics researchers from institutions such as Cambridge University, Princeton University, and the Max Planck Institute for Physics in Munich claim that quantum mechanics predicts some version of "life after death." They assert that a person may possess a body-soul duality that is an extension of the wave-particle duality of subatomic particles.

Wave-particle duality, a fundamental concept of quantum mechanics, proposes that elementary particles, such as photons and electrons, possess the properties of both particles and waves. These physicists claim that they can possibly extend this theory to the soul-body dichotomy. If there is a quantum code for all things, living and dead, then there is an existence after death (speaking in purely physical terms). Dr. Hans-Peter Dürr, former head of the Max Planck Institute for Physics in Munich, posits that, just as a particle "writes" all of its information on its wave function, the brain is the tangible "floppy disk" on which we save our data, and this data is then "uploaded" into the spiritual quantum field. Continuing with this analogy, when we die the body, or the physical disk, is gone, but our consciousness, or the data on the computer, lives on.

"What we consider the here and now, this world, it is actually just the material level that is comprehensible. The beyond is an infinite reality that is much bigger. Which this world is rooted in. In this way, our lives in this plane of existence are encompassed, surrounded, by the afterworld already... The body dies but the spiritual quantum field continues. In this way, I am immortal," says Dürr.

Dr. Christian Hellwig of the Max Planck Institute for Biophysical Chemistry in Göttingen, found evidence that information in our central nervous system is phase encoded, a type of coding that allows multiple pieces of data to occupy the same time. He said, "Our thoughts, our will, our consciousness and our feelings show properties that could be referred to as spiritual properties...No direct interaction with the known fundamental forces of natural science, such as gravitation, electromagnetic forces, etc. can be detected in the spiritual. On the other hand, however, these spiritual properties correspond exactly to the characteristics that distinguish the extremely puzzling and wondrous phenomena in the quantum world."

Physicist Professor Robert Jahn of Princeton University concluded that if consciousness can exchange information in both directions with the physical environment, then it can be attributed with the same "molecular binding potential" as physical objects, meaning that it must also follow the tenets of quantum mechanics. Quantum physicist David Bohm, a student and friend of Albert Einstein, was of a similar opinion. He stated, "The results of modern natural sciences only make sense if we assume an inner, uniform, transcendent reality that is based on all external data and facts. The very depth of human consciousness is one of them."

Although there is no definitive concrete evidence for this theory, one could arguably afford some weight to these claims if some of the most brilliant minds in quantum mechanics believe that it is consistent with the general patterns and trends of modern science. If proven, this theory could have monumental implications; if humans do "download" their consciousness into a thus far unobservable field, then a person's consciousness could, in Dürr's words, truly be immortal.

sayori wrote: "But soul doesn't seem to have such a large amount of energy. ..."

But it hasn't been proven there is a soul, right? Let alone how much energy a soul would have. There may not be a soul, OR if there is a soul its energy could be infinite for all we know...

I think there was one scientist who said the human body immediately weighs 21 grams LESS immediately after death - and that this scientist theorized that's what a soul weighs. But I'm not sure if that theory has since been discredited or else backed up by other similar studies.

sayori wrote: "so now the thing is that from where the 'body soul duality' coming if there is no soul?..."

Yeah, it all goes back to whether consciousness stems from the brain, or if consciousness is "non-local" and the brain is merely a "receiver"...most scientists say the former, however most quantum physicists (who specialize in these matters) say the latter.

At least that's my understanding.

sayori wrote: "couldn't understand the idea of 'non local' consciousness."

The concept means consciousness does not derive from the brain and is not local to the body, but rather stems from some greater field like a universal mind or similar ideas.

This is interesting because the Egyptians invented the soul, different kinds, off the tops of the heads but no one has ever been able to prove it. Then you run into the plurality of consciousness theory which is like the theory of ether, no one has been able to prove that either. This is from Erwin Schrödinger.

“Consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular. Even in the pathological cases of split consciousness or double personality the two persons alternate, they are never manifest simultaneously. In a dream we do perform several characters at the same time but ... we are one of them.”

“The pluralization of consciousness or minds seems a very suggestive hypothesis. Probably all simple ingenuous people, as well as the great majority of western philosophers, have accepted it.

“It leads almost immediately to the invention of souls, as many as there are bodies and to the question of whether they are mortal. ... Much sillier questions have been asked: Do animals have souls? ... Whether women ... have souls.”

“The plurality hypothesis ... is common to all official Western creeds."

If you go by inspired literature among the Jews here was the message from Koheleth.

“The fate of men and the fate of animals is the same.
“As one dies, so does the other.
“Man’s distinction over the animals is nothing.”

Dov wrote: "This is interesting because the Egyptians invented the soul, different kinds, off the tops of the heads but no one has ever been able to prove it. ..."

Tribal peoples around the world who predate the Egyptians, or else existed simultaneously, also had a belief in a soul. Tibetans, Aboriginals and tribal peoples of Africa and the Amazon all had identical or equivalent beliefs of a soul.

However, again, in the Middle Eastern faiths or the Abrahamic faiths, then yes you are probably right.

The Hebrews left Egypt without adopting their word for "soul." Belief in an after-life was totally rejected.

Israel is the only country in the world that fought a civil war over the issue of anti-life. It lasted six years with 50,000 dead.

The Epicureans, known in the history books as the Sadducees, fought the Platonists, known in the history books as the Pharisees. Plato was the big promoter of an after-life in the Hellenic world.

The Sadducees won but later were annihilated in another war so the Pharisees dragged that belief into Israel. They didn't have a word for "soul" so they used the Hebrew word for "breath."

German Scientists Prove There Is Life After Death -- http://www.thecontroversialfiles.net/...

I would still wonder about memory?

James Morcan wrote: "German Scientists Prove There Is Life After Death -- http://www.thecontroversialfiles.net/..."

My PC gave me a security warning about that link, so can't read the article. :[

C. wrote: "My PC gave me a security warning about that link, so can't read the article. :[ ..."

Okay, will post it here in full then then:

German Scientists Prove There Is Life After Death

SCIENCE AND TECH

Berlin | A team of psychologists and medical doctors associated with the Technische Universität of Berlin, have announced this morning that they had proven by clinical experimentation, the existence of some form of life after death. This astonishing announcement is based on the conclusions of a study using a new type of medically supervised near-death experiences, that allow patients to be clinically dead for almost 20 minutes before being brought back to life.

This controversial process that was repeated on 944 volunteers over that last four years, necessitates a complex mixture of drugs including epinephrine and dimethyltryptamine, destined to allow the body to survive the state of clinical death and the reanimation process without damage. The body of the subject was then put into a temporary comatic state induced by a mixture of other drugs which had to be filtered by ozone from his blood during the reanimation process 18 minutes later.

The extremely long duration of the experience was only recently made possible by the development of a new cardiopulmonary recitation (CPR) machine called the AutoPulse. This type of equipment has already been used over the last few years, to reanimate people who had been dead for somewhere between 40 minutes to an hour.

Near-death experiences have been hypothesized in various medical journals in the past, as having the characteristics of hallucinations, but Dr Ackermann and his team, on the contrary, consider them as evidence for the existence of the afterlife and of a form of dualism between mind and body.

The team of scientists led by Dr Berthold Ackermann, has monitored the operations and have compiled the testimonies of the subjects. Although there are some slight variations from one individual to another, all of the subjects have some memories of their period of clinical death. and a vast majority of them described some very similar sensations.

Most common memories include a feeling of detachment from the body, feelings of levitation, total serenity, security, warmth, the experience of absolute dissolution, and the presence of an overwhelming light.

The scientists say that they are well aware the many of their conclusions could shock a lot of people, like the fact that the religious beliefs of the various subjects seems to have held no incidence at all, on the sensations and experiences that they described at the end of the experiment. Indeed, the volunteers counted in their ranks some members are a variety of Christian churches, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and atheists.

“I know our results could disturb the beliefs of many people” says Mr Ackermann. “But in a way, we have just answered one of the greatest questions in the history of mankind, so I hope these people will be able to forgive us. Yes, there is life after death and it looks like this applies to everyone.”

Hmm, still doesn't sound like anything more than 'Near Death Experience' to me. Twenty minutes, that's it?

How about a few years, with full memory 'intact', then I will be impressed, lol!

I concur...the research is measuring the activity of an oxygenated brain....how can a living body's experiences be compared to that of a rotting corpse that has
no oxygen or other neuron activity within the body?

Lisa wrote: "I concur...the research is measuring the activity of an oxygenated brain....how can a living body's experiences be compared to that of a rotting corpse that has
no oxygen or other neuron activity ..."

Exactly! Sure doesn't rank as "proof" to me!

I'm inclined to believe that consciousness (or the soul) is a non-localized phenomenon. The brain does not produce consciousness but is a receiver. Or, another way, the body does not have a soul but it is a way of perceiving a soul. Like a projected image, the image doesn't come from the screen; it comes from somewhere else.

I've been puzzling over how one could test that. For now, these ideas are purely in the realm of metaphysics. Until I, or someone else, can come up with a falsifiable test scenario, it's not properly in the realm of science.

I'm ok with being out on a limb but when push comes to shove, I always look for a materialist explanation.

Jim wrote: "I'm inclined to believe that consciousness (or the soul) is a non-localized phenomenon. The brain does not produce consciousness but is a receiver. Or, another way, the body does not have a soul but it is a way of perceiving a soul. Like a projected image, the image doesn't come from the screen; it comes from somewhere else...."

Ditto.

Oh wow that would really suck, if that is the case!

I believe we are all spiritual beings (souls) residing for now in a human body. Our soul existed before our birth and will continue after our bodies physical death. I have no empirical evidence. My belief comes from the Bible.

IF our souls are separate from our human body, then how can life after death be measured by using the human body?

James Morcan wrote: "C. wrote: "My PC gave me a security warning about that link, so can't read the article. :[ ..."

Okay, will post it here in full then then:

German Scientists Prove There Is Life After Death

SCIEN..."

Sounds like the movie Flatliners...

Harry wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "C. wrote: "My PC gave me a security warning about that link, so can't read the article. :[ ..."

Okay, will post it here in full then then:

German Scientists Prove There Is Li..."

I liked that show!

Lisa wrote: "IF our souls are separate from our human body, then how can life after death be measured by using the human body?"

Excellent question Lisa!

The body dies the soul lives in a different form.

C. wrote: "Lisa wrote: "IF our souls are separate from our human body, then how can life after death be measured by using the human body?"

Excellent question Lisa!"
It can't.

The difference between science and spirituality is science helps us understand the unfathomable in the form of matter and spirituality helps us understand in the form of consciousness, soul

Well as a Naturalist, I do not believe anything exists or has been proven to exist.... outside the natural world, so I can't wrap my mind around 'supernatural' answers.

C. wrote: "Well as a Naturalist, I do not believe anything exists or has been proven to exist.... outside the natural world, so I can't wrap my mind around 'supernatural' answers."

When you say "supernatural" I take it to mean unproven. I believe after death many things that we have yet to prove will be proven to us. :-)

Hahaha, well I don't happen to believe that, and it certainly doesn't help/benefit the knowledge of the living. ;]

Lisa wrote: "IF our souls are separate from our human body, then how can life after death be measured by using the human body?"

If consciousness is non-local, then the brain would be like a receiver, and therefore the brain is in the human body and it'd kind of be like analyzing a radio and listening to the broadcast?

I'm not sure where this analogy is going...but it seemed like a good idea when I first started typing!!!!!

That still doesn't address Lisa's excellent question?

"The brain is in the human body", which in this case we are speaking of a body which has died!

Which is why I said if after a few years they can revive the body and all memories are intact I would be more likely to be convinced!

But the article says it has proven life after death. So the physical brain may have died but I submit what remains alive is spiritual not physical.

Twenty minutes is not long enough to claim "proof", or that it was no different than a NDE.

Until it can be done for a longer time, and the person retains their memories to actually prove that they are that person, then nothing has been proven, IMO.

If Lazarus came out of that tomb and didn't know anyone or remember his previous life, would you believe that was really Lazarus?

I agree 20 minutes isn't long enough to claim proof as the book suggests. If Lazarus came out of the tomb not knowing who he was and had no memory of himself I would be curious about what kind of shape the rest of him was in...he was dead four days. The Bible makes no mention of any defect in him but does say he was still wrapped in grave wrappings. I realize that many feel the Bible to be a work of fiction but to me it is a reference book of the highest order. So I want to thank you for being tolerant of my difficult to argue viewpoint.

No problem, I was a believer for decades, so "been there, done that, had many of the T-shirts"!

I think the Lazarus story was a ritual death and resurrection not a literal one. Those were used as advanced initiations in a lot of mystery schools going back, at least, to ancient Egypt.

Soul Search, A Scientist Explores the Afterlife

There are just things remain unexplained yet we continue to believe.

http://www.joekonek.com/

Top 10 Bizarre Afterlife Experiments http://listverse.com/2009/01/29/top-1...

The Afterlife Experiments: Breakthrough Scientific Evidence of Life After Death by Gary E. Schwartz Ph.D

We shall all find out one way or the other :-)

Read Spook by Mary Roach. Great book about this topic...pretty much everything Mary Roach has written is informative, scientific and fun

Ian wrote: "We shall all find out one way or the other :-)"

Very true! :-)

I believe that quantum mechanics can be the key for a lot of questions but we are not there yet and this takes time. But about these near-death-experiences I think that they still can be influenced by DMT, norepinephrine etc - all these tunnels and everything. More I don't know because of course I want to believe in these beautiful things but we all find out it later and at the moment all of this is just talk and speculations (and that's also nice but nobody can say what is truth).

Michio Kaku & Sean Stone on string theory & Mandela Effects https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIzIf...

Dr. Michio Kaku, the renowned theoretical physicist, author of The Future of Humanity and many more books, joins Sean Stone for a special interview about what string theory offers for understanding a multidimensional universe... and if there are many parallel universes, would we know if we switched timelines?

James wrote: "Michio Kaku & Sean Stone on string theory & Mandela Effects https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIzIf...

Dr. Michio Kaku, the renowned theoretical physicist, author of The Future of Humanity and..."<

If there was indeed a big bang no life would have survived such huge energy release. Life in that case would have come to our universe from parallel universes much after the big bang and the universe formed as it is now. I think part of us is still in other universes/dimensions. It is just that we don't realize it

A God Beyond Belief: Reclaiming Faith in a Quantum Age

Pardon me for self-promotion, but my recent book speaks directly to this topic. (You can read a free sample on Amazon.)

Lance wrote: "A God Beyond Belief: Reclaiming Faith in a Quantum Age

Pardon me for self-promotion, but my recent book speaks directly to this topic. (You can read a free sample on Amazon.)"

Thanks.

This gets a bit awkward for me. In my guidance wave interpretation of quantum mechanics I noted (and this should apply to ALL interpretations) that for the 2 slit experiment to give diffraction, the wave should get to the slits at the same time as the particle. No problem for the photon, but a real problem for anything with mass. However, by putting the phase velocity of the wave equal to the particle velocity you get the requirement for an energy to be associated with the wave, which has to oscillate as a disturbance in this energy field, and most importantly, you cannot detect it without perturbing the particle. There is no reason why conscious thought could not be determined through this energy field, and that is sufficient for a soul that outlives you. The reason that it outlives you is that energy has to be conserved in that domain as well, so it cannot just die out. Of course, the field may simply collapse into the substrate, so immortality is not guaranteed. Equally, I may be wrong, because it does depend on there being a wave to cause wave-particle duality.

Nice info Ian, cheers

I am fascinated by and gravitate towards the theory of Quantum Consciousness first established back in the 1990s by Stuart Hameroff, MD, Anesthesiology, Psychology and Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona, Tucson. He proposes "that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities inside brain neurons. The discovery of quantum vibrations in "microtubules" inside brain neurons corroborates this theory."**

The personality is created at the moment of one's birth, but the soul is an immortal entity inhabiting a projection (self image) known as the 'mortal vessel'. This soul is not only one's character. It is a composite being of different entities, each of which has its own role to play in the journey of life and afterlife (according to the Egyptian Mystery tradition). It has 'substance' and "leaks" back into the quantum soup when we make our Transition. This would explain NDEs and other Spiritual, so called para-normal or super-natural experiences and attributes (including the "21-Grams" scenario).

Can Quantum Physics Explain Consciousness? One Scientist Thinks It Might
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-...

**'Discovery of quantum vibrations in 'microtubules' inside brain neurons supports controversial theory of consciousness' Science Daily by Elsevier, January 16, 2014

Thoughts On Life After Death – Does ‘Consciousness’ Survive When We Die? https://www.collective-evolution.com/...

The Facts: Some fascinating research has been conducted over the past several years that make the discussion of life after death quite interesting.

Reflect On: Ancient wisdom and teachings have been 'proven' right with regards to quantum physics, neuroscience and health in many different ways. Would the same apply to life after death? Can we ever really know?

With over 100 years of research into the nature of death and survival of consciousness, a more sophisticated way of looking at the evidence seems to be emerging. Based on a number of interviews and wide reading, Lance Butler outlines a new understanding based on science as well as spiritual experience.