Nothing But Reading Challenges discussion

This topic is open for discussion about The Iliad by Homer




Book synopsis:
This groundbreaking English version by Robert Fagles is the most important recent translation of Homer's great epic poem. The verse translation has been hailed by scholars as the new standard, providing an Iliad that delights modern sensibility and aesthetic without sacrificing the grandeur and particular genius of Homer's own style and language. The Iliad is one of the two great epics of Homer, and is typically described as one of the greatest war stories of all time, but to say the Iliad is a war story does not begin to describe the emotional sweep of its action and characters: Achilles, Helen, Hector, and other heroes of Greek myth and history in the tenth and final year of the Greek siege of Troy.

BE PREPARED FOR SPOILERS

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I am reading The Iliad in this translation because it is the one that James Joyce most likely read before he wrote Ulysses. I am going to read that book starting in January. I read half of it last year but just couldn't finish it. I celt part of the problem was i didn't have enough background in the different literary references. So i am starting here and then reading the Odyssey next month.

What translation are you going to read?

We do not officially start reading till November 7th, However this is a hard read and i have never read it before. I often will read the first few chapters and background information in order to better comprehend what i am reading. I really want to know i read this book. So as described i will list the 'book' i am on and then comment on it, and maybe ask a question.

Questions:
Why did you want to read the Iliad?
Have you read it before?
If so do you have any advice for those of us that are reading it for the first time?

(Even though there are only two people signed up presently you are free to join in at anytime.)

I will try to read my version, Iliad with you. It's the version another book club I'm in is reading.

1. Reading it because I've forgotten it. I know we read this in high school, but that was a long time ago. It's a classic and on the list for another group.

2. High school.

I was 15 when we had to read the Iliad (Books I, XVIII, XXIV) and it was a total revelation and the mess at the same time. Till then we've only read short novels, stories, poems, something appropriate for our age and all of a sudden we were faced with epic poetry! But I have to thank to my professor for introducing us to such type of literature and book analysis.

Other people couldn't recommend the Iliad enough: the comments are varying from 'it's beautiful', 'it shows the human nature' to 'it's the basis and the inspiration of all the Western literature'.

I'll be using the German translation, so we won't have much opportunity for comparison :(

Dora wrote: "I'll be using the German translation, so we won't have much opportunity for comparison ..."

I don't know that we shouldn't have much comparison. Each one of us us reading different translations. Lets put a spoiler mark at the beginning of our review of each book. As best you can tell us what you felt each book was about.

This morning i started with Pope version. Honestly i didn't get that much out of it but people say you read his version for the poetry. So i may go back and just pull out some of the best lines of poetry.

I have finished listening to Book one translated by Samuel Butler. It is prose and I got a picture of the story with it so that i think i could tell you what the story in book one was about.

In my spoiler part i put some questions. Basically they were names that i couldn't remember and didn't want to stop writing to figure it out. Perhaps you will have problems like that. Just list those as questions and it will help us to recall the story better.

I am really hoping i come away with a feeling that i have read the Iliad. I mean some people just read a book like this to say i been there and done that....but it is just checking the book off their reading list. I really felt afterbi wrote my own synopsis of book one that i was going to make this book/story mine! I am really excited.

Book 1
(view spoiler)[

The Priest had a daughter that had been a bootie prize given to Agamenon. The Priest appealed to the god Apollo to give him back his daughter. Apollo sent a plague against the people. Achillies was in charge of the army and appealed to Agamemnon to give up the girl.( Chryseis) Agamemnon agree to but grudgingly. He felt it wasn't fair. All the girls (spoils of war)had been given away. So Agamemnon decided that the right thing go do was to take Achilles bootie name Briseis Achilles is very upset and he tells his mother who is a God and she goes to another god (i forgot which one so i will make that a question who was Achilles mother and what was the name of the god that she went to? I think i have remembered just now....but i will leave the question as is.) So this god grants her her wish that the Greeks, I believe will beat Agamemnon in battle. The god's wife however believes that her husband is setting up a plot against Agamemnon. question Why does his wife care what happens? Her son Volton goes to her and says "Listen we are fixing to have dinner and you are going to ruin it with your bad humor. Get over it and let my father have his way because there is nothing you can do about it anyway."

And that is the end of book one.

There is a number mentioned in book one. I am really into numerology. What was that number and the circumstance around it. If there was more than one number then list that as well. (I may have missed it) So look for Numbers in the Iliad. I kinda think they are important like they are in the Bible. I have a feeling this text was kinda like the Bible to the Greeks because it taught them how to live with the gods. (hide spoiler)]

I also was hoping to gain greater understanding, rather than checking off a bucket list.

Are we going to follow a schedule? What's our target end date? I don't mind starting early, but it says starting November 7. Wasn't sure what the pace would be.

I think it's great that we each have a different version. Should make for more interesting conversation. I wonder how much they really differ.

It is holiday season. We might want to divide it into two months, especially since it's a thought provoking epic. Perhaps Books 1-12 for November, the remainder for December?

Roughly three books a week. I haven't looked to see how long they are.

I just wanted to say that i am not the "leader" of this group even though it may look like it:)

I am pretty excited about reading the Iliad as you can see. I am almost afraid i won't finish it or that i just will feel like i am reading a word list rather than gaining any meaning out of the text. Another words, it is just to high brow for me. So i am probably compensating by readinv and writing.

I honestly didn't read early. In fact I didn't consider myself a reader till i was 21 and read Nicholas and Alexandra. That book taught me a lot about reading. So i only remember the story of Troy...about the horse with the soldiers inside. I learned from the Professor that that story is not really in the Iliad.

I really hated school! The last thing i would want is that this reading of the Iliad remind you of that. So there are no assignments. Do what you want and need to do to make reading this fun. Maybe you will do something totally different from me...like read sections out loud, or celebrate something about the Iliad in a unique way.

I wonder if there was a classic where the author used references to the Iliad. I had one this week. I am finishing up Don Quixote (i highly recommend the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_...
Anyway the duck and Dutchess have a wooden horse that they want DQ and Sancho to get on to ride to outer space in. Sancho says should we first look inside it to see if anyone is hidden in there.

If you come across references to the Iliad or Greek mythology feel free to come back and tell us.

I started my version, preface only so far. This version was written primarily from solo performances of the original epic poetry. He discussed how originally it was most likely, given the time period, an oral work handed down, performed, then eventually transcribed in the 6th century B.C., but still performed for hundreds of years beyond that. I'm not sure if it was really just an oral work for so long, given that we know even very far back "in the day" people were writing, especially the educated ones, just on papyrus, etc.

In any event, I may try to read mine out loud to see how that goes.

As for a schedule, it was only meant as a suggested guideline. If you want to just go for it, can I suggest that we title our spoilers so everyone can know where you are in the reading. You did in your paragraph.

So Book 1. Spoiler.

I like the idea of finding this elsewhere in our lives. I haven't read Don Quixote, but appreciated the reference. It's also on my list.

My version has a very long Introduction. It's great background, but definitely long.

Leslie wrote: "As for a schedule, it was only meant as a suggested guideline. If you want to just go for it, can I suggest that we title our spoilers so everyone can know where you are in the reading. You did in your paragraph.

So Book 1. Spoiler..."

That's a great idea. I fixed my spoiler:)

I tried to read some of the Iliad outloud but I couldn't pronounce the gods, so I gave up. I have Butler's translation on an audible. Of course my kindle will read it to me as well, which is nice for pronunciation.

I also agree the schedule is a suggestion. It is ok if it takes as long as it takes you. Would love to continue to hear your version.

I have been listening to some of the introductions and actually looking for more on the internet. This is not an easy read and we have a lot of resources.

I was going to share my introduction, but it's quite long. I think it's doing a terrific job of providing background story though. It's moving through the main characters, their flaws, society's flaws, the major themes, etc.

I decided it was too much to try to share. I'm hoping to get through the rest of the introduction tomorrow so I'll be poised to start soon. It's a really busy time for me.

I did a little research. The Iliad is believed to have been written by a blind, Greek poet, Homer, probably between 750-650 B.C. (When I read that I felt bad about my previous comments. So, that would mean he did not write it down. Stll, someone else around him could have). But even in the 3rd and 2nd century B.C., Greeks questioned if Homer solely wrote this and The Odyssey, or if he even wrote one in full.

Storytelling was much more refined back then and widely practiced.

Interestingly, the epic is set in Mycenaean Greece around the 12th century (the Bronze Age), a time considered to be more glorious and exciting. Gods were believed to come to earth often and, it was believed that heroic, godlike mortals with superhuman abilities lived in Greece. Homer calls the Greeks Achaeans, the name of a large Greek tribe who lived during the Bronze Age. But, the feudal social structure in the poem was that from Homer's time. Also, the gods mentioned were those from Mycenaean Greeks. He makes a few references to iron tools and tribes in the area that didn't arrive until the Iron Age, Homer's time period.

Archeologists have found what looks like the remains of Troy, off the Aegean coast in northwestern Turkey which fits with Homer's tale.

Well, i don't mind the spoilers because I know the whole story, it's just that I've never read the Iliad. But there are works that are always recyclig the same themes from Iliad, retellings and stories dealing with the happenings before and after the Troyan War. Right now I'm reading Euripides'Iphigenie in Aulis: Menelaus and Agamemnon summon the army and are ready to set sail for Troy, but before that they must offer a sacrifice to the gods to secure the success in war, and the person sacrificed will be Agamemnon's daughter, Iphigenie.

The idea of taking notes and finding references in our everyday lives is actualy great, at the end of the book we'll come to the conclusion that we're surrounded by the Iliad.
Right now I can just think of the three references:
-the beautiful Helen - in some older works it will always be used for women the author found beautiful, the last time I found it in Abel Sánchez, the female lead was called Helen, and, of course, she was beautiful.
-Achilles' Heel - the chocolate is my Achilles' Heel ;)
-I don't know if you have it in English, but in my language we use an expresion 'to grab the god by his chin' - to have great success. Cosmic, I'm glad you've written the resume of the first book, maybe you've noticed that when Achilles' mother asks the favour of his father (Achilles is a demigod), she grabs him for his chin, and he grants Achilles his wish.

I don't want to spoil the fun, but there will be one giant wooden horse at the end ;)

Leslie, I'm glad you've joined us! The more, the merrier!

Did you see that "Iliad", in Greek, means "the story of Troy?" :-)

I already know the story too, just don't remember all the details from childhood.

I am going to try to read this with you! I haven't read it before and I'm not sure how well I will understand it. haha. I want to read some more classics because I feel like there's some books that everyone should read! So I will try my best to be able to read this with you guys! :)

Welcome, Erin, and I hope you'll enjoy it!

Leslie, 'the story of Troy' sounds pretty epic, I always believed Iliad was another name for Troy.

But girls, did you see the movie 'Troy'? How did you like it?

I did see it, years ago, and enjoyed it. It was filmed at Cabo San Lucas, Mexico and I was able to go there the following year. Beautiful location.

Welcome Erin. I'll be muddling through as well.

Book 2(view spoiler)[

Jove or Jupiter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jove has sent a dream to Agamemnon. In the dream he is told that the Achaeans will triumph over Tory. Agamemnon declares to the people what the gods revealed to him a dream. They wouldn't have believed it but that it came from him it must be true. Ulysses is his right hand propaganda machine. He tells the people that they need to get ready to fight and when there is a desenter he beats the guy mercifully. He is the example to everyone.

The rest of the chapter is a list of ships. It would be interesting if the ships meqnt something, kinda like American Indian names.

I like these quotes:

Have our politicians ever given the people a lying dream? We call it rhetoric:

NOW THE other gods and the armed warriors on the plain slept soundly, but Jove was wakeful, for he was thinking how to do honour to Achilles, and destroy much people at the ships of the Achaeans. In the end he deemed it would be best to send a lying dream to King Agamemnon;"

Our fate is in the hands of the gods:
"Juno has brought them to her own mind, and woe betides the Trojans.”

Reminds me of a mania:
"They swarmed like bees that sally from some hollow cave and flit in countless throng among the spring flowers, bunched in knots and clusters; even so did the mighty multitude pour from ships and tents to the assembly, and range themselves upon the wide-watered shore, while among them ran Wildfire Rumour, messenger of Jove, urging them ever to the fore.Thus they gathered in a pell-mell of mad confusion, and the earth groaned under the tramp of men as the people sought their places. Nine heralds went crying about among them to stay their tumult and bid them listen to the kings, till at last they were got into their several places and ceased their clamour. "

Since Ulysses is significant to my study of The Iliad:


"Ulysses knew the voice as that of the goddess: he flung his cloak from him and set off to run. His servant Eurybates, a man of Ithaca, who waited on him, took charge of the cloak, whereon Ulysses went straight up to Agamemnon and received from him his ancestral, imperishable staff. With this he went about among the ships of the Achaeans."

This reminds me of a draft:

..."wet with the sweat upon your shoulders, your hands shall weary upon your spears, your horses shall steam in front of your chariots, and if I see any man shirking the fight, or trying to keep out of it at the ships, there shall be no help for him, but he shall be a prey to dogs and vultures.”

*In this quote what do you think gates are symbolic of?

"till the palace of Priam is laid low, and its gates are consumed with fire. Grant that my sword may pierce the shirt of Hector about his heart, and that full many of his comrades may bite the dust as they fall dying round him.”

They have a holy war:
"Nestor, knight of Gerene, began to speak. “King Agamemnon,” said he, “let us not stay talking here, nor be slack in the work that heaven has put into our hands. Let the heralds summon..."
"As countless swarms of flies buzz around a herdsman’s homestead in the time of spring when the pails are drenched with milk, even so did the Achaeans swarm on to the plain to charge the Trojans and destroy them." (hide spoiler)]

I bought this version (the Feagles translation) to read with another group that I have since left.

Why did you want to read the Iliad?
It is a classic and something I probably should have read in school or college. Now that I am an adult and enjoy reading so much more. I see the classics in a different light compared to when I was in school as having a family completely changes how I look at the world.

Have you read it before?
No

Welcome Alex! I feel like I should have read this in school as well. That said, I was telling someone the other day, I really didn't get much out of reading those classics as a child. As an adult, I appreciate the depth of the characters, their dilemmas, their angst. As a child, I don't think I had lived enough to truly understand in the same way.

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts as we read together.

I'm going to join in with you all. I remember reading The Iliad in high school and I tried to re-read it last year and just got bogged down. So I'm hoping reading it this way will make it more enjoyable!

Why did you want to read the Iliad?
I want to remember this as an adult and from an adult's prospective. I've been trying to read many of the classics that I've never read or have simply forgotten about. I like to be well-rounded in my reading journey.

Have you read it before?
Yes, in high school.

If so do you have any advice for those of us that are reading it for the first time?
Unfortunately not. This will probably be like a first time read for me as well.

Welcome Alex and Michelle!

One thing that i learned from Don Quixote was that those stories were read to children. Surely the Iliad would be stories that adults had grown up with. Children in Andrew Langs day were fortunate to have his book Tales of Troy and Greece. This would help greatly if i had been familiar with these stories in coming to the Iliad. Unfortunately i was raised in the Bible belt and learning about other gods was looked down on. So I have this huge gap in my education.

So i was looking through my books and realized I had an audible of Lang's book. So I decided to get familiar with these stories before tackling the poem The Iliad.

Whatever path you decide to take please tell us. We are all on a "journey" and these text were looked on to help people make decisions about life and relationships and battles. Make it relevant to your life and i think you can feel it is your Odyssey.

Leslie wrote: "the epic is set in Mycenaean Greece around the 12th century (the Bronze Age), a time considered to be more glorious and exciting. Gods were believed to come to earth often and, it was believed that heroic, godlike mortals with superhuman abilities lived in Greece. Homer calls the Greeks Achaeans, the name of a large Greek tribe who lived during the Bronze Age. But, the feudal social structure in the poem was that from Homer's time. Also, the gods mentioned were those from Mycenaean Greeks. He makes a few references to iron tools and tribes in the area that didn't arrive until the Iron Age, Homer's time period.

Archeologists have found what looks like the remains of Troy, off the Aegean coast in northwestern Turkey which fits with Homer's tale. ..."

This is timely because my husband and I just finished a great documentary about the Bronze Age called Stories of the Stone Age (see YouTube) very good with good reenactments...it will take you to the Bronze Age and discuss that period thoroughly. Not boring at all!

Erin wrote: "I am going to try to read this with you! I haven't read it before and I'm not sure how well I will understand it. haha. I want to read some more classics because I feel like there's some books that..."

Welcome Erin! Sorry I missed your post.

Hello all. I've signed up to read Ulysses by James Joyce in another group and as background reading I have gone back to the Iliad, which I read as a young man many years ago. I've been reading Peter Green's translation of the The Iliad: A New Translation by Peter Green. When I read it years ago I think I read the Pope translation The Iliad of Homer. Vol 1 of 6. I find the Peter Green translation to be a great deal easier to read and ultimately more interesting than the Pope translation, and am enjoying the re-read immensely. Recommended.

In response to a query about the Lattimore translation : I looked into this. Green, in his preface, lauds it, but notes that Lattimore was attempting to create a translation that respected the written form of the original. Green's translation, which is more recent than Lattimore's, attempts to restore these texts as "declaimable" rather than simple "readable", that is, he is focussed on the sonority of the texts so that they can be read aloud and preserve the sense of sound the originals gave. I find this nuance attractive, and I must admit that reading the text gives precisely this feeling, that one is "listening" to a text rather than simply reading one. I will look into the Lattimore translation when I have finished this one, for comparison.

I have just completed Book 14, so I will be careful about spoilers.

As related reading, I've also dug up my copy of the The Orestia by Aeschylus and have bought a copy of the The Argonautica by Apollonius of Rhodes. So for those that don't know these books, the Orestia is about the children of Agamemnon (Orestes and Elektra) after his return from Troy, while the Argonautika is about Jason's quest for the golden fleece, a story that forms part of the background to the Iliad.

Comments about Book 1 :
(view spoiler)[
Opening lines "Wrath, goddess, sing of Achilles Pēleus’s son’s calamitous wrath, which hit the Achaians with countless ills" - in some ways, the whole of the Iliad is about Achilles' anger... he is their strongest warrior, and because of the argument over the woman Briseus, he refuses to take part in the fight... as a result, the Argives lose many people before Achilles finally agrees to come back to the fighting, towards the end of the story.

"Indeed, I prefer her to Klytaimnēstra, my wedded wife, whose equal she is in all ways, being as good-looking, as tall, as clever, as accomplished" - indicates all is not easy between Agamemnon and his wife - this is background for the Orestia, in which his wife plots his destruction.

"Most glorious son of Atreus, of all men the most covetous" - Agamemnon is hardly a paragon of virtue, even if he is leader of the whole army.

"Then Nestōr, smooth phrasemaker, arose, the Pylians’ lucid spokesman, a man from whose tongue the speech flowed sweeter than honey." - Nestor, the conciliator. One of the books that refers heavily to the Iliad is The Alexandria Quartet by Lawrence Durrell (actually this is four books) - Nestor is one of the main characters in the first book of the Quartet, Justine. The Quartet would make another great readalong project.

"Pēleus’s son made his way to the huts and his well-trimmed vessels with Patroklos..." - We are introduced to Patroklos, Achilles' right hand man and boyhood friend. Some claim Achilles and Patroklos were lovers....

"Then resourceful Odysseus escorted her to the altar, put her in the arms of her dear father" - Odysseus, who will become everyone's hero, because of the Odyssey. In the Iliad, Odysseus is a kind of glorious messenger boy, always to be relied upon.

"The sail bellied out in the wind, and a surging bow wave sang loud round the vessel’s cutwater as she ran" - pure poetry!

"But when the twelfth dawn from that day broke, then back to Olympos the gods who are forever returned, all together, with Zeus at their head" - so the gods are omnipresent throughout the Iliad, but we don't quite know how to understand their role. Sometimes they seem to be real, and sometimes simply metaphors. According to Peter Green in his translator's forward, this ambiguity is indeed present in the Iliad, as the Greeks slowly abandon their belief in powerful gods that walk among humans.
(hide spoiler)]

Hello everyone. I'd like to join in the book discussion.

Questions:
Why did you want to read the Iliad?
Because I've always wanted to but never have.
Have you read it before?
Nope.

I have started reading The Iliad and just finished book 1. I will place it in a spoiler.

(view spoiler)[So far I felt that Achilles is a very sensitive guy. I felt bad for him when he was talking to his mother and asking for her help. You know of course she would. She loves him very much and Zeus does listen to her. Those poor Greek Goddesses, they just get the worst things happen to them.

I've always love Greek Mythology and read about many of the Gods and Goddesses, a little fact. All my kindles are named after the Greek Goddesses. I have known that the marriage between Zeus and Hera is a very explosive relationship, Zeus and Hera are siblings. They mess with each other and plot against each other, especially Hera because all the sleeping around and getting involved that Zeus does for all the mortals. he does go down in many forms to sleep with women and then impregnates them. She is really a jealous woman and wants to be apart of all the goings on. The argue a lot because his infidelities.

So, I totally understand when Hera's son is telling her not to argue with Zeus. That it will ruin the festivities for the night.

Now Zeus was worried because Thetis (Achilles mother) is a Goddess and there was a prophecy that she would have a child that would become greater than his father. He was worried for himself because this is what he did to his father, was greater and he cast him out. So they wanted to arrange a marriage for her so this wouldn't happen. Instead Thetis was trapped by Peleus a human but the aid of a sea god, and forced her to marry him (this happens a lot in Greek Mythology). This is where Achilles comes from. Human father and Goddess (sea foam) mother.

I'm not sure why Zeus would want to help out Thetis when he was so worried about the prophecy. Did he have guilt? I'm just not sure why he wants to help. I do know he has a total weakness for mortals. Maybe that is why. I'm not sure. Any ideas? (hide spoiler)]

RachelvlehcaR wrote: "I'm not sure why Zeus would want to help out Thetis when he was so worried about the prophecy. Did he have guilt? I'm just not sure why he wants to help. I do know he has a total weakness for mortals. Maybe that is why. I'm not sure. Any ideas?"

I think Zeus even says that he'll have problems with Hera if she finds out that he helped the Trojan people. My guess is that everyone had their favorites or simply did as they pleased. Even this whole war started because the goddesses had to have a beauty contest...

Dora, Zeus did say he was going to have problems with Hera about it but I'm thinking that is all about the jealousy she has. They did have favorites and I'm still wondering why he would want to help Thetis. I'm thinking it's more of a favor for her than Achilles. I could be totally wrong.

Due to the varying page count for this book, we have done some research.

It is 147,317 words and on worldcat 594 pages. So assuming 250 words per page, that page count is probably the most accurate. Therefore please shelve a version such as or let your captain know to use the page override

Moderators of NBRC wrote: "Due to the varying page count for this book, we have done some research.

It is 147,317 words and on worldcat 594 pages. So assuming 250 words per page, that page count is probably the most accurat..."

Thank you! :)

Moderators of NBRC wrote: "Due to the varying page count for this book, we have done some research.

It is 147,317 words and on worldcat 594 pages. So assuming 250 words per page, that page count is probably the most accurat..."

Thank you and noted.

Book 2

(view spoiler)[Oh Hera and Athene. They just have to get their vengeance out.

There is a lot of plotting not on just their part but of the war and Zeus getting involved too.

I wonder how much of all this could be prevented without the involvement of the Gods and Goddesses. (hide spoiler)]

Book 3

(view spoiler)[I think the funnies part is the ending of book 3. It's when Paris is saved by Aphrodite and brought back to his room. Then she tells Helen to go to him in there. She starts to get on his case about how he doesn't fight fair then he pretty much says I know now how into bed. Then she does! LOL That whole scene just made me laugh.

Aphrodite is really getting involved a lot in book 3. (hide spoiler)]

RachelvlehcaR wrote: "Hello everyone. I'd like to join in the book discussion.

Questions:
Why did you want to read the Iliad?
Because I've always wanted to but never have.
Have you read it before?
Nope.

I have started..."

Regarding Zeus helping Thetis, he owed her a favor.

Achilles says to Thetis on pages 12-13.

"Go to Olympus
And call in the debt that Zeus owes you.
I remember often hearing you tell
In my father’s house how you alone managed,
Of all the immortals, to save Zeus’ neck
When the other Olympians wanted to bind him—
Hera and Poseidon and Pallas Athena.
You came and loosened him from his chains,
And you lured to Olympus’ summit the giant
With a hundred hands whom the gods call
Briareus but men call Aegaeon, stronger
Even than his own father Uranus, and he
Sat hulking in front of cloud-black Zeus,
Proud of his prowess, and scared all the gods
Who were trying to put the son of Cronus in chains.

Remind Zeus of this, sit holding his knees,
See if he is willing to help the Trojans
Hem the Greeks in between the fleet and the sea"

Leslie,

He also was very attracted to her but just didn't want a child with her because of the prophecy. I was thinking that he felt guilty for forcing her to marry a human, mind you, he is a prince but still how they trapped her.

I just posted the citation. Took me a few minutes to find it.

Oh cool thank you. I remember reading that but for some reason I was thinking of more of the attraction he had towards her.

Thanks Leslie.

Holy moly this is a Br for fun? Gosh guys have fun xD definitely not my idea of fun.

LOL Maddison! That's funny. It's actually a neat book.

Well i just finished the story behind the book Iliad that was told in Tales of Troy and Greece.

It goes on to tell of Ulysses journey back home but i will save that for when i read the The Odyssey.

Now i am wondering about a good children's book for all the Greek/ Roman gods. Bulfinch's Mythology? Mythology: Timeless Tales of Gods and Heroes maybe? What are your favorite?

Or do you just go with Wikipedia?

Geoffrey wrote: "Hello all. I've signed up to read Ulysses by James Joyce in another group and as background reading I have gone back to the Iliad, which I read as a young man many years..."

Geoffrey
Thank you so much for joining us on our quest to read the Iliad. You have added a fresh perspective and different view point that makes me want to enjoy the timing or language and rhythm of the Iliad as well as the story.

I read The Orestia and you made me feel like I was closer to these classical works of literature rather than below them. Lang also recounts the story...although he skips the part about the daughter being sacrificed. At least i didn't hear it.

So it looks like I am going to start over reading the Iliad. I often do this with a book I have a difficult time getting into a book.

Thanks for giving so many references for good reads to go along with the Iliad. You are definitely going to bring our group up to a more scholarly level!

A Short History of Myth by Karen Armstrong might interest you. I have it but haven't read it.

RachelvlehcaR wrote: "Dora, Zeus did say he was going to have problems with Hera about it but I'm thinking that is all about the jealousy she has. They did have favorites and I'm still wondering why he would want to hel..."
I must say I am enjoying this discussion back and forward about the gods and goddesses. I realized I tend to focus on the humans and think of the gods as background, but I think that's probably wrong and you have the right of it - what motivates them is just as important as the humans. There's certainly plenty of discussion about the gods. It's like there are two stories here, one about the gods and one about the humans, and the Iliad is where they interact really strongly. I need to work out the plot of each group separate from the other, and identify where they cross...

Book 2 (view spoiler)[


It took me a long time to finish this chapter. I kept starting over with different translations. I have decided to read this one The Iliadfor its readability.

The second book starts Thetis
withhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis getting
Jupiter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jove to tell Agamemnon in a dream that he will triumph over Troy. Agamemnon wakes up calls his cabinet together and tells them what has been revealed to him. They get pretty excited. If it had come from anyone else they wouldn't have believed it, but because they saw it on TV they are convinced it must be true.

Of course you always have a naysayer. Agamemnon puts him down as being a conspiracy theorist. He shows everyone what will happen to those that question his dreams..and he knocks him out, just like in the movies. The camera pans in really close to reveal a tear slowly cascading down his check. But it does the job; and Agamemnon doesn't have to worry about him. In fact just in case someone else gets the bright idea of leaving he threatens them. (But i can't remember exactly how). Everyone is on board with Agamemnon! The cheer goes up and you would have thought the NFL football team came out on the field, the roar was both heard and felt.

Agamemnon offers up the biggest OX to the gods. Was it Jupiter or Zeus? The god accepts it but doesn't deviate from his plan to make sure Troy wins.

I was thinking about the OX and why they may have been so revered. In Out of Africa she talks about how the OX paved the way for civilization because the OX carved roads where there were none and moved supplies. Horses could not do this. Ox moved stumps and boulders. Horses could not do that.

So then we get to the good stuff
He starts doing some accounting. How many men, ships and horses.

It needed some music...so this is my choice for book 2.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=OJWJE...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PBAl9cc...

One of the things about their fastest horses. They said that they could be ridden like a bird. That reminded me of the Thunderbird. I wonder what other cars are named after birds?

This maybe a little silly but hopefully i can move on to book 3 without feeling i have totally lost book 2. (hide spoiler)]

Geoffrey wrote: ". It's like there are two stories here, one about the gods and one about the humans, and the Iliad is where they interact really strongly. I need to work out the plot of each group separate from the other, and identify where they cross...
..."

I was starting to err the gods just like the Egyptians did. They saw their pharaohs as deities. Maybe the gods are a shadowy government. The unseen hand. That is what i started thinking since you started this conversion.

Cosmic wrote: "Book 2


It took me a long time to finish this chapter. I kept starting over with different translations. I have decided to read this one The Iliadfor its readability.

The second b..."

(view spoiler)[

About the accounting, as you call it. I've been thinking about this. This isn't a fleet as we would have in modern times, all under a single commander-in-chief. Each kingdom sends its own fleet of ships, under its king or prince commander. The closest modern equivalent might be a UN task force, with armies from several countries working together, but in modern times these rarely involve more than a few nations at a time. So what we are getting here is a sense of just how big and diverse this army (navy?) is. Agamemnon is named the commander-in-chief by common agreement, but he isn't really "above" any of the others. And note that it is not Menelaus, Helen's husband, who is commander-in-chief. Probably a good thing, but Agamemnon also seems to be a more capable and experienced commander than his brother. So we have an army consisting of, essentially a hundred or so kings, who have selected one among their number as Number One.

This explains in part why Achilles is so angry when Agamemnon takes his concubine... Agamemnon is abusing his power. But it also explains why, later on during battle, each person within the battle is given so much "screen time", as these are all kings and princes, not common soldiers. There are common soldiers, but these are barely mentioned by Homer. (hide spoiler)]

Geoffrey wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Book 2


It took me a long time to finish this chapter. I kept starting over with different translations. I have decided to read this one The Iliadfor its readability..."

(view spoiler)[
Geoffrey wrote:"This explains in part why Achilles is so angry when Agamemnon takes his concubine... Agamemnon is abusing his power. But it also explains why, later on during battle, each person within the battle is given so much "screen time", as these are all kings and princes, not common soldiers. There are common soldiers, but these are barely mentioned by Homer."

I think the Professor talked about how the girl was Achilles prize. Not just payment but also a form of status. I guess it would be like ripping the stipes off your General.

I thought the "kings or princes" were Generals or Captains. I am kinda equating it to our own army in the US. But to you it is more than just being from different parts of Greece. Am I right?


I realized that I had not taken time to look at a map.

http://blog.oup.com/2013/11/maps-of-t...

This one might be useful. (hide spoiler)]