THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

The December theme read is on any book or books of your choice covering any aspect of the Battle of the Bulge.

Well I've started my book for this theme; Ardennes 1944 by Antony Beevor. So far it has been quite good with the first few chapters building up towards December 1944.

by Antony Beevor

Which books have other folks got ready to go for this theme?

Here is an interesting quite from my book dealing with US tactics in dealing with German bunkers along the Siegfried Line:

"The concrete was too strong to penetrate except by 155mm self-propelled guns, but tank destroyers firing armour-piercing rounds at the embrasures caused casualties from concussion. ‘The wounded come out dazed and bleeding from the nose and mouth,’ a US report stated. The Americans also used armour-piercing rounds on the steel doors , or pole or satchel charges containing at least thirty pounds of TNT. ‘If they still refuse to surrender, deafen them with a fragmentation grenade down the ventilation shaft,’ the same report advised. And a white phosphorus grenade ‘placed in the same air-shaft is found to be a great little reviser [of attitudes]’. They should then shout ‘Kamerad?’ and ‘Wir schiessen nicht!’ (‘ We won’t shoot!’). ‘If all this fails, call a tank to blast the rear of the pillbox or get a tank dozer to fill in the hole [and bury them].’ Soldiers were advised never to enter a pillbox; they should make the defenders come out. ‘When the doors and ports had been blown in,’ the 41st Armored Infantry Regiment with the 2nd Armored Division reported, ‘and enemy automatic weapon fire silenced, the infantry moved to the blind side of the [pill] box and called for the occupants to come out. This was obeyed promptly. At one [pill] box, only 13 prisoners came out. A grenade was thrown through a blasted port and seven more emerged.’"

I started Snow and Steel: The Battle of the Bulge, 1944-45

Good book - I hope you like at much as I did!

I with Happy, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Good choice, Chrissy!

I'm starting To Save Bastogne. Maybe I'll even scan in the cover since it looks like Goodread doesn't have it.

Fixed it A.L.

by Robert F. Phillips

Awesome, thanks Rick!

Some interesting details from my current book in regards to the fighting in the Hurtgen Forest. I am pretty sure I read the same account in Snow & Steel:

"The 9th Division’s painful and costly advance came to a halt on 16 October after it had suffered some 4,500 battle and non-battle casualties: one for every yard it had advanced. American army doctors, operating on both badly wounded GIs and German soldiers, had begun to notice a striking contrast. Surgeons observed that ‘the German soldier shows an aptitude for recovery from the most drastic wounds far above that of the American soldier’. This difference was apparently due to ‘the simple surgical fact that American soldiers, being so much better fed than the Germans, generally have a thick layer of fat on them which makes surgery not only more difficult and extensive, but also delays healing. The German soldier on the other hand, being sparsely fed and leaner, is therefore more operable.’"

Interesting, I don't remember that in Snow and Steel

Of the 5 divisions in the path of the German advance on Dec 16, 3 were rebuilding from the Hurtgen, all had suffered more than 100% casualities in their infantry bn, and 2 were very green.

On page 44 of

Ardennes 1944: Hitler's Last Gamble

Can't go wrong with Beevor at the keyboard

The Ardennes - Battle of the Bulge

This is the book I'm reading about the Battle of the Bulge. About 12% done.

Will admit though,the book by Antony Beevor is the one I would like to read. I will make it my next read.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Well I've started my book for this theme; Ardennes 1944 by Antony Beevor. So far it has been quite good with the first few chapters building up towards December 1944.

[bookcover:Ardennes 1944: Hit..."

Look forward to your review. Beevor has the credentials to write a great book, no doubt.

Have just come across a horrifying incident in American-held Malmedy over Christmas, 1944. For 3 days the town was inadvertently bombed by American planes resulting in destruction, death, and injuries for civilians and military alike. As the author of the book, A TIME FOR TRUMPETS, pointed out, "It was, in fact, the human equation: pilot error. Nothing more, nothing less."

Looking forward to reading soon. This quote of a German soldier from reminds us of the hopes without foresight of some:

"Victory was never as close as it is now. The decision will soon be reached. We will throw them into the ocean, the arrogant, big-mouthed apes from the New World. They will not get into our Germany. We will protect our wives and children from all enemy domination."

Good quote Bevan.

I found this account from my book amusing. This incident occurred just a few days before the German attack began and Oberstleutnant von der Heydte is trying to get some information on his units role in the offensive:

"Finally, Heydte was shown into Dietrich’s office. Heydte thought he looked like ‘an old non-commissioned officer permanently addicted to alcohol ’. Dietrich opened the conversation by demanding: ‘What can you paratroopers do, anyhow?’ Heydte replied that, if told the mission, he could judge whether or not it was possible. Failing to obtain a clear reply, Heydte then asked what was known of enemy strength in the area. ‘All that was known’, Heydte recorded, ‘was that the front line was held by American units; and that behind them there were only “a couple of bank managers and Jewboys”’, in Dietrich’s words. ‘As for tactical and operational reserves, nobody could tell me anything.’ Heydte later entertained fellow officers in captivity with his version of how the conversation went, imitating Dietrich’s thick Swabian accent. When he tried to explain some of the problems the operation faced , Dietrich clearly considered this defeatism. The offensive would crush the Americans. ‘We’ll annihilate them,’ he shouted. ‘But what about the enemy, Herr Oberstgruppenführer?’‘Good Lord, I don’t know. You’ll find out soon enough.’‘Who will you send in first?’‘I can’t tell you yet – whoever is the first to turn up.’ Heydte’s account continued: ‘When I added that you can only jump when the wind is favourable, he said: “Well, I’m not responsible for the Luftwaffe’s shortcomings!"

Ardennes 1944: Hitler's Last Gamble

Just musing;

General John C. Lee is mentioned, quite briefly. As in many other books dealing with the WWII campaign in the west.

In charge of the supply organisation he is described as a self-absorbed, arrogant, 'red-tape' kind of officer surrounding himself with yes-men.

Even Patton did not want to fall out with him in fear of being cut off from supplies to his 3rd Army.

According to Beevor, Eisenhower was furious with General Lee because the latter 'seized' many a building in Paris for the thousands of rear echelon officers within his organisation. As well as the Hotel King George V [I believe it was?] for his headquarter.

But neither this book tells what actually became of him. Sacked he wasn't, according to the author.

I may have to dig into this . . . . .

'Aussie Rick' wrote: . . . . . .

"The concrete was too strong to penetrate except by 155mm self-propelled ..."

Think I remember something with a captured German officer that was quite miffed because the Americans used howitzers for direct fire - at point blank, sighting down the bore - to take out pillboxes. He thought it to be not a fair way to wage a war.

And another calling the Americans way of using firepower abundantly 'a rich mans war'

happy wrote: "Interesting, I don't remember that in Snow and Steel

Of the 5 divisions in the path of the German advance on Dec 16, 3 were rebuilding from the Hurtgen, all had suffered more than 100% casualities..."

If I recall, 4th and 28th were still rebuilding, 99th and 106th were green, but the 2nd USID was actually up to strength, but conducting offensive operations, so technically wasn't in the defensive line.

Which makes it no better in the long run than if they had been rebuilding, since their focus was entirely opposite protecting ground.

Jesper wrote: "Ardennes 1944: Hitler's Last Gamble

Just musing;

General John C. Lee is mentioned, quite briefly. As in many other books dealing with the WWII campaign in the west.

In charge of..."

The worst part about it, though tecnically the G4 (supply) for SHAEF, he didn't answer to Ike. His command chain went back to Washington and then Ike, so if Ike wanted to reprimand him and from most of what I have read in regards to JCH Lee it is likely that he did, he would have to go through the Pentagon to get it done. A major pain.

"Lee continued in the military and served as commander of the Mediterranean Theater of Operations in post-War Europe. There was some controversy to his command, when in August 1947 newspaper columnist Robert C. Ruark claimed that General Lee misused enlisted men under his command in occupied Italy. Said Ruark "I am going to blow a loud whistle on Lieutenant General John C. H. Lee". Some evidence suggests Ruark was unhappy because a journalist's train had left him behind and Lee would not provide transportation for him. Lee requested that his command be thoroughly investigated by Army Inspector General's Office. He and his command were completely exonerated.[citation needed]

Lee asked to retire from the army in February 1947 and he retired late in 1947, with over 39 years in active service.[citation needed]

Lee was an Episcopalian and kept a Bible with him at all times. In retirement he planned to work as a layman in his church. He spent the last 11 years of his life as the executive secretary of the Brotherhood of Saint Andrew, which is the lay-organization of the Episcopal Church. He declined all post-war invitations to serve as a corporate board executive, preferring to devote his life to service.

Lee died in 1958. He is buried at Arlington National Cemetery beside his first wife, Sarah Row Lee, who was killed in an automobile accident in 1939. They had one child, John C. H. Lee Jr., born in her hometown of Wheeling, West Virginia, 12 July 1918."

This section comes from Wiki. As you can see they don't have the citations they have asked for, but some of it, should be accurate.

Jesper wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: . . . . . .

"The concrete was too strong to penetrate except by 155mm self-propelled ..."

Think I remember something with a captured German officer that was quite miffed bec..."

Piper was less than happy with a gun being used that way at the end of his run. Think it was a 155. Although I love how unfair the Germans think the Americans are for doing many of the same things they had done earlier in the war. Ah well in war it is always unfair if it happens to you.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here is an interesting quite from my book dealing with US tactics in dealing with German bunkers along the Siegfried Line:

"The concrete was too strong to penetrate except by 155mm self-propelled ..."

Phosporous is a awful but deadly effective weapon against enclosed troops and also infantry in the open.

Here is another great account from my book on the Ardennes:

"Parties from the divisions in the Ardennes were allowed back to the VIII Corps rest camp at Arlon or to Bastogne, where Marlene Dietrich went to perform for the GIs, crooning huskily in her long sequinned gown which was so close-fitting that she wore no underwear . She nearly always sang ‘Lili Marlene’. Its lilting refrain had gripped the hearts of Allied troops, despite its German provenance. ‘The bloody Heinies!’ wrote one American soldier. ‘When they weren’t killing you they were making you cry.’"

When I visited the Ardennes in 1990 I tried to track down a number of surviving tanks that were scattered throughout numerous villages. Here is a Panther that I sat beside and enjoyed a cup of coffee and later on a Sherman:



Here are a few excellent images of other Panthers in the Ardennes area:

http://tank-photographs.s3-website-eu...

http://tank-photographs.s3-website-eu...

Another funny account from my Bulge book, this was only jus a few days before the German offensive:

"The bad visibility to prevent flying, which Hitler had so earnestly desired, was repeated day after day. It does not, however, appear to have hampered artillery-spotting aircraft on unofficial business in the Ardennes. Bradley received complaints that ‘GI’s in their zest for barbecued pork were hunting [wild] boar in low-flying cubs with Thompson submachine guns."

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Another funny account from my Bulge book, this was only jus a few days before the German offensive:

"The bad visibility to prevent flying, which Hitler had so earnestly desired, was repeated day a..."

Nothing will get between hungry American country boys and roast pig!

I'm joining the December theme read with --

Snow and Steel: The Battle of the Bulge, 1944-45 by Peter Caddick-Adams

I really hope you enjoy Snow & Steel Manray9. I'll be keen to hear your thoughts on the book.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Good quote Bevan.

I found this account from my book amusing. This incident occurred just a few days before the German attack began and Oberstleutnant von der Heydte is trying to get some informati..."

I knew Baron Friedrich August von der Heydte, interviewed him. He was 1st cousin to Claus von Stauffenberg, and both men were my grandmother's 3rd cousins, making them my 5th cousins.

Have read about Baron von der Heydte. He was an interesting man. I was surprised that he survived and was still part of the army, considering his relationship with Stauffenberg.

Have come across another incident that I knew little about. Evidently, the controversy over the defense of Strasbourg during Operation NORDWIND put considerable pressure on the Free French-American alliance. The French would not consider abandoning the Alsatian city. (Much like Verdun in WWI) Fortunately, the situation was resolved when the German effort fell short.

That's true Betsy, the French could not be seen to giving up a part of France ever again.

From Peter Caddick-Adams' Snow and Steel: The Battle of the Bulge, 1944-45

In the early pages of Caddick-Adams' book, I've come across some info of interest to me:

1. From D-Day until 22 August and the collapse of the Falaise Pocket, the Germans in France lost 1,500 panzers, 3,500 guns, 20,000 vehicles and 500,000 men. This exceeded the losses on the Eastern Front during the same period.

2. The defeat at Falaise was long attributed to overwhelming Allied air power, but after-action reports revealed few panzers had been hit by Jabos. According to Caddick-Adams: "Inaccuracy was an issue that plagued both the RAF and the USAAF...Nevertheless, the impression both of panzer crews and OKW was that the Allied air forces were all-powerful."

Some great information there Manray9 and I am sure you are going to find heaps more in that book.

Interesting critique of the US 57mm anti-tank gun:

" ... 'The 57mm anti-tank guns proved very unsatisfactory, only one effective hit being scored on the turret of one enemy tank,' an after-action report stated. Another officer described it as 'practically a useless weapon'. Lieutenant Colonel McKinley thought the 57mm had 'no place in an infantry battalion', because it was so hard to manoeuvre in mud, and it was impossible to put into position if the enemy was already in contact. He wanted tank destroyers as an integral part of the unit so that they did not disappear whenever they felt like it."

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Interesting critique of the US 57mm anti-tank gun:

" ... 'The 57mm anti-tank guns proved very unsatisfactory, only one effective hit being scored on the turret of one enemy tank,' an after-action ..."

We went to war with a number of inferior weapons.

As did most armies I suppose, and when you look at it, I suppose it was that or a bazooka :)

I remember reading a personal account of a young Marine in a 37mm AT crew. The gun was useless against modern armor, but on Guadalcanal they were very effective firing canister rounds against Japanese banzai charges. Can't recall the name of the book.

That's interesting as in the book; In Deadly Combat, which covers a young German soldier on the Russian Front, the German 37mm came across as not totally useless either (although I can't remember why I formed that opinion now).

by Gottlob Herbert Bidermann

Here is a heart-wrenching account from my book on the Ardennes Offensive in regards to the execution of some captured Germans from the commando unit, Einheit Stielau:

"Another three members of Einheit Steilau, due to be executed at Eupen on 23 December, made a last request just before their execution. They wanted to hear some Christmas carols sung by German nurses interned near by. While the firing squad stood ready, ‘the women sang in clear strong voices ’. The guards looked at the condemned men, and apparently ‘hung their heads struck by the peculiar sentimentality of it all’. The officer in command of the squad was ‘half afraid that they’d shoot at the wall instead of the man when the command was given’."

Information on Panzer-Brigade 150 and Operation Grief:

http://www.panzerworld.com/panzer-bri...

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Interesting critique of the US 57mm anti-tank gun:

" ... 'The 57mm anti-tank guns proved very unsatisfactory, only one effective hit being scored on the turret of one enemy tank,' an after-action ..."

I thought it interesting that Lt. Colonel McKinley was the great-nephew of William McKinley, but then he wasn't the only relative of a U.S. President to serve in WWII.

"I thought it interesting that Lt. Colonel McKinley was the great-nephew of William McKinley, but then he wasn't the only relative of a U.S. President to serve in WWII."
Popular accounts often include Theodore Roosevelt Jr. getting a stroke in Normandy, any others ?

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here is a heart-wrenching account from my book on the Ardennes Offensive in regards to the execution of some captured Germans from the commando unit, Einheit Stielau:

"Another three members of Ein..."

Very touching

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "That's true Betsy, the French could not be seen to giving up a part of France ever again."

While that is likely very true, the way DeGaulle went about telling Ike that it wouldn't be given up left bad feelings all around.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Interesting critique of the US 57mm anti-tank gun:

" ... 'The 57mm anti-tank guns proved very unsatisfactory, only one effective hit being scored on the turret of one enemy tank,' an after-action ..."

Accurate, but it is comparable to the early use of the 37mm by the Germans. Although the 57 had better reputation than being a door knocker. Interestingly the 57 could be quite effective if the ammo mix allowed for it. Some of the first Sabot rounds were developed for this particular weapon. Sabot is very popular to kill armor now days, it is a smaller round inside a larger one. This allows for better penetration affect once fired. Problem was there were pretty few of these rounds to pass around.

I think DeGaulle left bad feelings all around all the time :)

Dimitri wrote: ""I thought it interesting that Lt. Colonel McKinley was the great-nephew of William McKinley, but then he wasn't the only relative of a U.S. President to serve in WWII."
Popular accounts often incl..."

At least 3 of F.D.R.'s sons served in the Armed Forces in WWII, and of course, J.F.K.'s brother, Joe, died in the war.

Betsy wrote: "Dimitri wrote: ""I thought it interesting that Lt. Colonel McKinley was the great-nephew of William McKinley, but then he wasn't the only relative of a U.S. President to serve in WWII."
Popular acc..."

Ike had a son that fought in the war as well. Although fought might be a slight exaggeration.

Was that John? Didn't he graduate from West Point on D-Day? I thought I read that somewhere.