Victorians! discussion

Apologies for posting late and in haste. Feel free to get going dissecting Part The Second and I'll post a few questions - if necessary - when I've got a quiet moment.

I love the physical and verbal comedy in the visit to the Vicar. In historical time and also in progression,/development of comedic style, it fits between Shakespeare's play-within-a-play in Midsummer Night's Dream (Bottom and co.), and Monty Python's Flying Circus. Did anyone else laugh out loud? I did a couple of times... Especially at "“Dick, not having much affection for this errand, soon grew tired, and went away in the direction of the school." I didn't expect Hardy to make me laugh, or to feel such familial affection for this ragtag assembly.

I know what you mean, Tracy. I'm finding this novel to be quite delightful and lol funny. The visit to the vicar was also sad because the old guys are being put out to pasture and aren't ready to go. They love the choir so! But there were so many truly funny moments. I agree with Dick's mom, though, and think the vicar is sweet on Fancy.

Rene e wrote: "I know what you mean, Tracy. I'm finding this novel to be quite delightful and lol funny. The visit to the vicar was also sad because the old guys are being put out to pasture and aren't ready to g..."

I agree about the sadness, Renee. I expected elegiac sadness, but the humor was a delightful surprise. I wasn't around for the vote for this one, and thank whomever suggested and all who voted for it. I love it!

I'm behind in my reading and should catch up in the next few days.

We get to see more of Fancy this time round. Like Dick I found myself briefly thinking if she was perhaps a flirt, but I think she is rather a young girl in a new place who has found that three men might be hot on her. I can't blame her for wanting to spend time with them to see who, if any, takes her fancy (no pun intended).

Considering how quiet and maybe shy he is, Dick does seem to take every available opportunity of touching her hands - the handwashing scene in particular was quite a bold move, I would think. But the poor guy does have his competition.

I really like the tranter. He seems such a pleasant, happy and kind dude, but he also warns Dick that he would make "a poverty-stric' wife and family" of Fancy, "her father being rather better in the pocket than we". Would Dick be able to marry at all if he doesn't have the finances to provide for a wife? Or would it be a long engagement? However, Dick seems to be more worried about birdcages than money at the moment.

I love the vicar scene, for all of the things mentioned above. It is sad and funny at the same time. Hardy seems to be pulling my sympathies in several directions. In addition to seeing things from Dewey's point of view and wanting him to succeed, I wind up liking the vicar also. He is quick to offer a chair to old William and give a coin to "silly" Leaf. The comical meeting of the two minds under the table puts him a weak position, underscored by the bloody chin moments later, and he does compromise with Dewey.

I agree with the comments that find this novel, so far, to be one of gentle humour, engaging character and a very effective rural feel to the story.

Such observations such as how Dick " meditated on [Fancy's] every little movement for hours after it was made" are delightful. The sink episode and the cup of tea event raise these usual and somewhat common events into almost epic proportions. While there are winds of change in the air such as the choir losing their position and no doubt Fancy's suitors may come into conflict later in the novel, for now we are in a pastoral scene. Hardy paints such as scene when he likens the sun to a beautiful woman's face: "The descending sun appears as a nebulous blaze of amber light, it's outline being lost in cloudy masses hanging round it, like wild locks of hair."

Peter wrote: "...'The descending sun appears as a nebulous blaze of amber light, it's outline being lost in cloudy masses hanging round it, like wild locks of hair.' ..."

I collect writer's images of clouds because I have loved looking at the clouds since a child watching huge strata-cumulus ones grow on a summer day over the plains of the midwest and I have long despaired of ever capturing their beauty and variety with words. (Clouds lead me to say 'thank you' for eyesight.) I believe this is the first time I have read them as likened to "wild locks of hair."

Great idea! I'm gonna take some time to cloud watch tomorrow! I love that, too, but get so caught up 'doing' that I forget 'enjoying.'

Lily wrote:

I collect writer's images..."

I spent much of my 13th summer (in the midwest) lying on my back in meadows and at the pool, floating on my back in the water, watching the clouds, wishing I could paint them. I turned out to be lousy at painting, and honestly, never have come up with the right descriptions. I hope you'll share your quotes, someday, Lily. I'd love to see them!

Tracy wrote: "I hope you'll share your quotes, someday, Lily. I'd love to see them! ..."

Tracy, I'm afraid I've never collected them into one place, but if one is ever to look through my books, there is a period of several years where a little cloud scribbled in the margin marks a "find." (I still do.) Likewise, while I'm not certain how to search my kindle notes efficiently, I have quite a number where the entry is simply "cloud."

Since it clearly sounds like you enjoyed those midwest clouds much as I did and have tried capturing them elsewise, I will encourage you to spend a few years noticing, noting in your own way, images and descriptions of clouds. (I didn't have access to a pool, but I used to plop myself flat on my back in the grass in the yard and watch those billows build from what I would someday understand as warm updrafts from the heated plains. In college I dated a meteorologist who told me the sunsets in the movie "South Pacific" were actually filmed in the midwest. I have never verified the accuracy of his anecdote.)

Sorry, Hardy readers, for this little diversion. I know particularly memorable for me from this UTGT discussion will be our opening comments about each tree having its own unique sound (in the night wind?).

Lily wrote: "Tracy wrote: "I hope you'll share your quotes, someday, Lily. I'd love to see them! ..."

Tracy, I'm afraid I've never collected them into one place, but if one is ever to look through my books, th..."

Lily

Thanks for introducing your comment on clouds.

If we cannot connect what we read to the worlds we live in, both the world that surrounds us and the world that inhabits our minds, then why read. I'm glad there were reflections in our commentary. Somehow I think Hardy would be too.

Linda wrote: "I love the vicar scene, for all of the things mentioned above. It is sad and funny at the same time. Hardy seems to be pulling my sympathies in several directions. In addition to seeing things from..."

Yes--the Vicar is the perfect example of the "Laodicean lukewarmness" he tries so hard to avoid. From Revelations 3:14-16:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Hardy's novel A Laodicean: A Story of Today was published in 1881, but the vicar embodies this character trait. He continually prevaricates--blames the churchwarden (whom he then names),fiddles and organs are just two different types of music. The transition can be put off--not as long as Christmas. Maybe around Michaelmas? Reuben has a plan to manipulate the weaknesses of the Vicar--we suspect this confrontation is only the beginning.Reuben says

"Everybody must be managed. Queens must be managed: kings must be managed; for men want managing almost as much as women, and that's saying a good deal."

Ginny wrote: "'Everybody must be managed. Queens must be managed: kings must be managed; for men want managing almost as much as women, and that's saying a good deal.'..."

And now let's have a contest. Was the author of that sentence a woman? lol

Thx for the Revelations passage, Ginny. You sent me here for more on Laodicea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laodice...
I couldn't remember if it was also named in the Pauline letters.

I, too, am enjoying the humor of UTGT.

I'm still a bit behind, but catching up quickly. I'm loving the lightness of this novel. There is wonderfully humorous passages, and I, too, loved the description of the clouds. Definitely a cloud watcher here :). Even though there is foreshadowing of some future conflict, Hardy has written so a beautiful uplifting story (so far). It's a first read for me. I've always enjoyed Hardy, and it's been quite some time since I read him. It's wonderful to rediscover everything I enjoy about him.

I think Hardy has captured the angst of not knowing if your affection is returned by the one attracted. There's the tension but also the silliness of awarkwardness between the two individuals.

I am behind on posting because my computer is dead and I am working on a small tablet. But I'm loving all the comments, especially those about the visit to the vicar. I also found it a very humorous but also touching episode, with all the parties being sensitive to their different positions in society while not overdoing those differences. I think it took a bit of courage for the musicians to approach a vicar they don't yet know very well, given that they are his parishioners and in a position to be guided by him and not to try to govern him. So it seemed a very brave thing to do, reflecting the important to them their place in the choir and their not wanting to be displaced casually and without feeling proper respect.

I also agree with those who think the victor is sweet on Fannie, and agree that she is not really a flirt but is a young woman probably appreciating being appreciated. The handwashing incident, yes, was a bit bold on Dick's part and was funny at least in part because by modern standards it seems so innocent, but was obviously a very significant event for them.

Deborah wrote: "I think Hardy has captured the angst of not knowing if your affection is returned by the one attracted. There's the tension but also the silliness of awarkwardness between the two individuals."

And then he had to deal with the additional angst of seeing the vicar being chosen to pound in the nail for the birdcage, especially after Fancy had just commented how she didn't want him to come see her house in a muddle.

Ah, Everyman, I read the birdcage activity differently. It never occurs to Dick to hang up the cage for Fancy; he busies himself with poking the fire while she looks for dishes. The awkward task ( for a young woman) of hanging a birdcage high up was the first thing the vicar thought of doing. I don't see the disorganized Fancy as asking him to accomplish the task as soon as he walks in the door, or she would have asked Dick to do it. I think Hardy intended to show the difference in maturity between Dick and the vicar.

Oooh. That point of view is really interesting. I like that perspective.

Any fiction writers in this group? If so, I am curious about your "writerly reading" of this novel.

Ginny: Thanks for your comment. It really opened up my thinking about the vicar. First, I had to look up "laodicean"...someone with a half-hearted attitude toward religion or politics...and then I started wondering, What is Hardy's point of view on the vicar's brand of religion? And on the tranter's, for that matter? We are introduced to Maybold through the choir's opinions. I will definitely tune into this aspect of the novel more. Also, I want to read Hardy's The Laodicean.

Linda wrote: "Ah, Everyman, I read the birdcage activity differently. It never occurs to Dick to hang up the cage for Fancy; he busies himself with poking the fire while she looks for dishes. The awkward task ( ..."

Very interesting. And probably right. Poor Dick -- he isn't used to dealing with women who have been "finished."

Linda wrote: "Also, I want to read Hardy's The Laodicean.
"

Something to keep in mind when nominations come up!

Everyman: Apparently, Hardy was vigorous in his religion in his youth but less so later in life as he developed his philosophical thinking. I read his major novels way back in my twenties when this fact was not even a blip on my radar screen. I'm now so intrigued by Hardy's views on religion etc that I've got my eye on The Dynasts as well as A Laodicean. Both of these are considered minor works, and may not have broad appeal, but I'm LOL: Several weeks ago I wasn't even thinking about Hardy, then I bumped into this book club, and now I'm voracious for obscure titles by him...!?

I agree with the comments above-this is a gently humorous section illustrating the progress in Dick's affection for Fancy and the strains on him as her feelings for him (vs those for his two rivals) remain unclear. I particularly enjoyed the last chapter in this section when Dick and his father meet in 2 oncoming carts and have a long conversation about Fancy and wooing and how Reuben proposed to Dick's mother, and all through the conversation there are little interjections about the horses. You get a lovely feel for the 2 men sitting in their shifting carts having that father-son talk about life and love that parents and adult children all over the world probably have at some time.

I particularly enjoyed these words of wisdom from Reuben:

When you've made up your mind to marry, take the first respectable body that comes to hand-she's as good as any other; they be all alike in the groundwork; 'tis only in the flourishes there's a difference.

And we have all seen that Fancy has wonderful flourishes indeed!

Frances wrote: "I particularly enjoyed the last chapter in this section when Dick and his father meet in 2 oncoming carts and have a long conversation about Fancy and wooing.."

The horses, Smart and Smiler are characters in this scene. The conversation is punctuated with the horses responding to their drivers words and actions. I have never driven a cart, but have certainly had this experience when horseback riding--meeting someone and trying to hold the horses steady while talking. It gives such a rhythm to the scene.

I also noted the "flourishes" quote. Great! Another quote from this scene:

..."I can't see what the nation a young feller like you,...should want to go hollering after a young woman for, when she's quietly making a husband in her pocket and not troubled by chick or chiel,"..

My notes say that the meaning of "making a husband in her pocket" is unclear. I suggest that Reuben means she is making her own money and has no need of a husband, and will not be tempted by the poverty that marriage with Dick would mean. I assume that as a married woman, she could not work as a teacher?

I feel a bit cheated that Mr. Hardy did not share the two letters with us. I think that those letters would have been a great opportunity for insights into Dick's character.

Ginny wrote: "Frances wrote: "I particularly enjoyed the last chapter in this section when Dick and his father meet in 2 oncoming carts and have a long conversation about Fancy and wooing.."

The horses, Smart a..."

She may or may not continue working after marriage. It would be unlikely in this time period.

I read "making a husband in her pocket" to mean, making her intentions re a husband out of sight...no one knows her mind, maybe not even Fancy Day.

Frances wrote: "'When you've made up your mind to marry, take the first respectable body that comes to hand-she's as good as any other; they be all alike in the groundwork; 'tis only in the flourishes there's a difference....'"

I'm curious. You call this "wisdom." Do you agree that it is? Does it mean that individual characteristics are subsidiary when selecting a mate? Or does it mean something else?

Linda wrote: "I read "making a husband in her pocket" to mean, making her intentions re a husband out of sight...no one knows her mind, maybe not even Fancy Day."

I wondered when I read it if he meant that she was quietly "gathering her options" to choose the best offer.

Lily wrote: I'm curious. You call this "wisdom." Do you agree that it is? Does it mean that individual characteristics are subsidiary when selecting a mate? Or does it mean something else?


No, I think this is Hardy poking gentle fun at the conventional thinking of the day-that one woman is just like any other-and clearly both Reuben and Dick had particular ideas about who they would choose as a spouse. Rather, I enjoyed the imagery and language-the groundwork versus the flourishes-and the whole scene of Reuben imparting this counsel to his son while the two of them are in their adjacent horse carts.

I think that in portraying Fancy as an independent woman who is living on her own and making her own choices in life-everything from what she will wear to whom she will marry-we see that in fact Reuben's "wisdom" does not hold true.

Linda wrote: "Several weeks ago I wasn't even thinking about Hardy, then I bumped into this book club, and now I'm voracious for obscure titles by him...!?
"

And well worth your time.

And when you add Trollpe to your voraciousness for obscure titles, your life will be perfect! [g]

Frances wrote: "I particularly enjoyed the last chapter in this section when Dick and his father meet in 2 oncoming carts and have a long conversation about Fancy and wooing and how Reuben proposed to Dick's mother, and all through the conversation there are little interjections about the horses. You get a lovely feel for the 2 men sitting in their shifting carts having that father-son talk about life and love"

It's that gentle insight into how the village class of the time looked at life that makes this novel so wonderful for me. I do love Austen, but she is dealing with such a different class of people (they may not all be rich, but they are all middle to upper class), whereas Hardy can make a rich novel of shoemakers and carters.

Lily wrote: "I'm curious. You call this "wisdom." Do you agree that it is? Does it mean that individual characteristics are subsidiary when selecting a mate? Or does it mean something else? "

I think it reflects the difference between marriage in that day and marriage in ours. For them, marriage wasn't so much a matter of romantic love (though it is for Dick) as it was to find someone who would be respectable and a good enough manager for the man to be able to set up his own house and home (would need either a wife or servant) and bear his children. A good respectable woman would fulfill the necessary functions; anything else was the toothpick in the sandwich, but the respectable woman took care of the bread and meat. Today we virtually insist on romantic love, but I think then love was something you expected to develop as the marriage proceeded, not something you insisted on before going to church.

Is Fancy respectable? Her name makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote: "I'm curious. You call this "wisdom." Do you agree that it is? Does it mean that individual characteristics are subsidiary when selecting a mate? Or does it mean something else? "

I th..."

Hardy has made Fancy a school teacher which was a very respected position. I think he intended her to be respectable. While marriage was not always based on romantic love, I feel that's exactly what he is depicting between Fancy and Dick. Many of Hardy's female characters live their lives in very independent ways.

Fancy's dithering reminds me very much of Hardy's interactions with one of the women in his life -- a name that I'd have to go back to a biography to recall, and I don't have one here. (Not either of his wives.) It was a interaction in which the woman always seemed to me to be pulled between perceptions of societal expectations, her own sense of identity, and her attraction to Hardy. I see those elements in Fancy. I don't know if that episode was before, during, or after Hardy wrote UTGT.

Deborah wrote: "Many of Hardy's female characters live their lives in very independent ways. "

That's true, and an excellent reminder. His women are indeed something special.

'Ah,'murmured Spinks, "twould be sharper upon her if she were born for fortune, and not to it! I suffer from that affliction.'

Me too! I suffer from that affliction!

Diane wrote: "'Ah,'murmured Spinks, "twould be sharper upon her if she were born for fortune, and not to it! I suffer from that affliction.'

Me too! I suffer from that affliction!"

I'm confused. I thought Fancy's problem (in part) was that the status of her family rather implied she ought to love and marry a bit more "up" than Dewy.

Lily wrote: "Diane wrote: "'Ah,'murmured Spinks, "twould be sharper upon her if she were born for fortune, and not to it! I suffer from that affliction.'"

I'm confused. ..."

Spinks was just making a joke referring to her father's wealth and that it is better to be born to wealth than to have the affliction of being born for it, or wanting it, but not having it.