Victorians! discussion
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UTGT - Part 3 - Summer
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The final conversation about the bonnet versus the hat put me an the floor. Sooo funny!
How old do you think Fancy is? Sixteen? Eighteen? ..?She is acting about sixteen to me -- young, sweet, one minute sure of herself, another doubting, desirous of flattery, naively trusting, ...
Lily wrote: "How old do you think Fancy is? Sixteen? Eighteen? ..?She is acting about sixteen to me -- young, sweet, one minute sure of herself, another doubting, desirous of flattery, naively trusting, ..."
Great question. We know neither her age, nor Dick's. I'm thinking late teens by their maturity level, and taking into consideration the time period.
I am not sure if she genuinely loves Dick, or if she loves being loved. I am more inclined to the latter. She seems more preoccupied with dresses, hats and curls, and - though they have probably kissed "off stage" - she has tried to avoid the kissing attempts we have seen so far. He definitely seems more in earnest than she does.What are your thoughts regarding Dick's and Fancy's relationship. Will it succeed since there is a discrepancy in social status and wealth?
And Fancy's father wants her to marry mr Shiner. It's not that the obstacles are insurmountable, but if Fancy is not genuinely in love with Dick, or is not ready for a life as a wife and mother, I don't see how their marriage is going to be a happy one.
Lily wrote: "How old do you think Fancy is? Sixteen? Eighteen? ..?She is acting about sixteen to me -- young, sweet, one minute sure of herself, another doubting, desirous of flattery, naively trusting, ..."
I think Fancy is nearer 18 or maybe a little older. It is unusual that she is living on her own with no companion or 'chaperone', another example of Hardy using her character to signal a change in order. I'm thinking if she were 16 or younger, she would be boarding with a respectable family if she had to move away from home for her employment - maybe the vicar's mother?!
Ella's Gran wrote: "...It is unusual that she is living on her own with no companion or 'chaperone', another example of Hardy using her character to signal a change in order. ..."Like this discussion (@4, @6). Interesting point you make, Gran, about Hardy signalling "a change in order." Fancy seemed "silly" enough to me that I had trouble bringing her to eighteen, but I see your arguments. Her being on her own certainly tilted her toward twenty, even a bit more, so eighteen seems possible. (Eighteen was about what I guessed for Dick, but he could easily be nineteen or a little older -- but not likely twenty-five.)
I think Fancy loves or at least is very attracted to Dick. Right after she accepts (pending paternal approval) Dick's proposal and he tries to kiss her, she initially pushes him away but when he draws back, she immediately asks him to kiss her, there is a break in the narration, and then Hardy resumes withHalf an hour afterwards, Dick emerged from the inn, and if Fancy's lips had been real cherries probably Dick's would have appeared deeply stained.
In the following chapter, when Susan (unconsciously?) makes Fancy jealous by discussing Dick's behaviour at a party at which he danced once with another girl, Susan tells us that everyone wants to dance with Dick because he is so handsome and such a clever courter. So Hardy has set the scene of our two attractive protagonists who have fallen in love, come to an agreement with each other, and now have a little back and forth struggle of mutual little misunderstandings and jealousies on the road (we hope!) to happily ever after.
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Renee wrote: "I missed the 'clever courter.' If all the girls have been smitten with Dick, then it's probably something of a surprise to him the Fancy doesn't turn herself inside out for his attentions. Maybe. D..."Dicke seems unaware and a bit naive about it all. The text indicated he only danced with the other girl to endure the evening.
Frances wrote: "I think Fancy loves or at least is very attracted to Dick. Right after she accepts (pending paternal approval) Dick's proposal and he tries to kiss her, she initially pushes him away but when he dr..."But she does push him away at first, rather than go straight in for the kiss, and she has just got engaged. I may be wrong, but I just don't get the feeling that Fancy loves Dick. She is attracted to him, but not much more than that, I think, and not to the extent where I couldn't see her being swept off her feet by someone else - the vicar, perhaps? She cares so much about being attractive and looking good that I got the feeling that she reacted to Susan's story out of wounded vanity more than jealousy - Dick should only look at her, just like she wants everybody else to look at and admire her. She is a vain young thing. Her age probably accounts for a good deal of that, whatever it is.
I think the pushing away was simply the product of her age-what was expected of young women of the day and probably the initial reaction of someone inexperienced in kissing young men. I think that if she did not have strong feelings for Dick, she would have turned him down or at least put him off, not accepted him and then proceeded to kiss him for what Hardy implies was half and hour.
Frances wrote: "I think Fancy loves or at least is very attracted to Dick. Right after she accepts (pending paternal approval) Dick's proposal and he tries to kiss her, she initially pushes him away but when he dr..."I, too, really enjoyed (and chuckled) over the description of Dick's "deeply stained" lips. What a great phrase.
After Fancy confesses to Dick that she had flirted with Mr. Shiner Hardy writes "After the silence that was only disturbed by the fall of an apple" I again chuckled. I still find it difficult to separate the Hardy of UTGT with the author who wrote Jude, Mayor of C, Tess and other novels that bring soon, often and with dire consequences events that are treated with such a light and amusing touch in UTGT.
Peter wrote: "I still find it difficult to separate the Hardy of UTGT with the author who wrote Jude, Mayor of C, Tess and other novels that bring soon, often and with dire consequences events that are treated with such a light and amusing touch in UTGT. ..."Yes, one can almost follow Hardy's philosophical attitudes towards life and people mature (and darken?) -- sometimes, but not always, in directions with which we would agree today.
Lily wrote: "Peter wrote: "I still find it difficult to separate the Hardy of UTGT with the author who wrote Jude, Mayor of C, Tess and other novels that bring soon, often and with dire consequences events that..."Yes. I keep waiting for the huge dark clouds of Fate to roll into Mellstock.
Deborah wrote: "What are your thoughts regarding Dick's and Fancy's relationship. ..."My first thought upon reading this question was their names: Dick Dewey (???) and Fancy Day.(!) How are we to take these characters seriously after that? Is Hardy perhaps mocking young love? Of course Dick has to be naive and dewy-eyed and Fancy has to fuss over her bonnets and her curls. And yet, Fancy has been away to school and is succeeding as a rural teacher in a community where she is known. No small accomplishments. The reason she had to miss the party was a previous commitment connected with her career.
I don't think Fancy is frivolous. I think she is wondering and worrying about being a "captive" instead of economically independent. As Reuben pointed out to Dick in their conversation from their carts, she is sure to wonder about taking on "chick and chiel" and the duties as wife to a poor trantor. I think she is "in love" with Dick, but she has been watching her father and step-mother, and undoubtedly many other marriages and does not want that.
Does it matter to the story-telling that Hardy's first wife and marriage was quite problematic and that Hardy's attempts at relationships with other women seemed sometimes to leave him wondering at the priorities and desires of those women? I.e., besides the quire linkages to his father, do other elements of the story seem biographical? In what ways, if at all, does it matter if they so seem?(Personally, I think the story can be read with deep value being totally oblivious to Hardy's bio. But, I do find myself asking if knowing (more about) his bio would add additional worthwhile depth.)
Lily wrote: "Does it matter to the story-telling that Hardy's first wife and marriage was quite problematic and that Hardy's attempts at relationships with other women seemed sometimes to leave him wondering at..."I agree with you that a reader can get "deep value" without knowing much, or anything, about the writer's biography. Still, however, I find myself picking through the bones of the author's personal history. I'm not sure whether it is a good or bad habit, but it is one that I cannot cure myself of yet.
There are biographies that tend to stretch the facts very far. Perhaps that is a result of all the predecessors covering everything else.
I'm feeling about Fancy, that I must have become my old, grouchy grandparents without anticipating this curmudgeonliness would happen to me. I don't feel much empathy for her. And I am normally the kind of person who oozes empathy. Therefore I'm thinking Lily is astute I bringing the authors biography into the discussion. Young love is such a matter of perspective. Depending upon where you are coming from, it might be glorious; it might be ludicrous. Perhaps it is significant, that Hardy could be projecting his own life experiences and values into these funny, delightful, and sometimes heart-wrenching scenes.
Deborah wrote: "What are your thoughts regarding Dick's and Fancy's relationship. Will it succeed since there is a discrepancy in social status and wealth?"If this were Austen, of course it would.
If it were Trollope, probably yes.
If it were late Hardy, not a chance.
But early Hardy -- I suspect it's likely, though I'm sure he'll make it not all smooth sailing. But this is a gentle book so far, and I can't see that he would want to dash the hopes and dreams of his hero and heroine the way he later does to -- well, to avoid spoilers, let me just say many of his other heroes and heroines.
Deborah wrote: "Fancy seems more worried about her appearance than Dick being accepted as a suitor. Her deliberate choice to look coquettish instead of serious tells us something about her feelings. What is your opinion on this choice?"
I think she is still influenced by the practices of the finishing school working on a basically village upbringing; the two are, it seems to me, in conflict, leaving her conflicted within herself.
Also, I can't think it's a good thing for a presumably innocent young girl from a small village in her first position to be so admired and desired by three different men. Of course we don't know whether she's had admirers in the past, but from the way she acts, it doesn't seem so to me.
Renee wrote: "My guess is that she does love him and wants to marry him, but she's not quite ready to give up being a girly-girl to become a wife."
I do agree with this. Though I suspect that she might be a bit scared of the commitment of marriage so early in her career.
I read somewhere that seemed to me authoritative but that I can't now recall where that, contrary to our idea about Victorian morality, in the more remote country or village areas many, in some cases even a majority of, marriages came about after the young woman was pregnant. Not so much shotgun or forced marriages, but the young people needed time to establish themselves financially, so didn't actually go to the altar until it became necessary to do so.
Some day I'll find the reference. It surprised me a lot, being so contrary to the idea of Victorian morality, but maybe that was more a middle and upper class social set of values that didn't reach down into the country classes.
Ella's Gran wrote: "I think Fancy is nearer 18 or maybe a little older. It is unusual that she is living on her own with no companion or 'chaperone', another example of Hardy using her character to signal a change in order. I'm thinking if she were 16 or younger, she would be boarding with a respectable family if she had to move away from home for her employment - maybe the vicar's mother?! "Excellent point. I agree that a sixteen year old teacher wouldn't have been expected/allowed to live alone in the schoolhouse.
If she were younger, it would have been more likely for her to go out as a governess, like Becky Sharp, Jane Eyre, etc. That she is able at that age to get an independent job as schoolmistress (with apparently no schoolmaster over her -- that seems strange, too) is, I agree, Hardy pointing out how society is changing. And let's keep in mind that this story is set some years before its publication -- in the 1912 introduction (though wasn't it written earlier?) he talks about the ways "fifty or sixty years ago." That would be around 1850-60. Still fairly early in Victoria's reign.
Frances wrote: "Half an hour afterwards, Dick emerged from the inn, and if Fancy's lips had been real cherries probably Dick's would have appeared deeply stained."
Yes, isn't that a lovely way to draw a veil over a period it would have been much less interesting for Hardy to have described in any detail?
Peter wrote: "I still find it difficult to separate the Hardy of UTGT with the author who wrote Jude, Mayor of C, Tess and other novels that bring soon, often and with dire consequences events that are treated with such a light and amusing touch in UTGT."
Oh, yes, I definitely agree.
I wonder what happened to him to turn him so dark.
But his poetry -- and he considered himself first a poet and only second a novelist -- is also often quite dark.
For example:
You did not come,
And marching Time drew on, and wore me numb.
Yet less for loss of your dear presence there
Than that I thus found lacking in your make
That high compassion which can overbear
Reluctance for pure lovingkindness' sake
Grieved I, when, as the hope-hour stroked its sum,
You did not come.
You love not me,
And love alone can lend you loyalty;
-I know and knew it. But, unto the store
Of human deeds divine in all but name,
Was it not worth a little hour or more
To add yet this: Once you, a woman, came
To soothe a time-torn man; even though it be
You love not me.
Or consider
How great my grief, my joys how few,
Since first it was my fate to know thee!
- Have the slow years not brought to view
How great my grief, my joys how few,
Nor memory shaped old times anew,
Nor loving-kindness helped to show thee
How great my grief, my joys how few,
Since first it was my fate to know thee?
How did Under the Greenwood Tree come out of this poet? Yet I'm delighted that it did.
Everyman wrote: "...Yes, isn't that a lovely way to draw a veil over a period..."Bah, humbug. "Fraudulent effort to twist a trite metaphor about cherries into something new" was this cynic's reaction to that particular passage -- although I do agree more detail alone would have been uninteresting.
Just clearly struck me differently than it did you, Eman. The word choice may not have had all the overload when Hardy wrote that it does today.
In general, I really, really like Hardy's word choices and turns of phrases. This, for me, was not one of them and struck me as sour fruit the first time I read it.
Ginny wrote: "I don't think Fancy is frivolous. I think she is wondering and worrying about being a "captive" instead of economically independent. As Reuben pointed out to Dick in their conversation from their carts, she is sure to wonder about taking on "chick and chiel" and the duties as wife to a poor trantor. I think she is "in love" with Dick, but she has been watching her father and step-mother, and undoubtedly many other marriages and does not want that.."
Interesting perspective. If you're right, it would very much go along with Ella's Gran's point about Hardy emphasizing social change, since one would,or at least I would, think that in the 1850s to 60s every woman was still looking to marriage for social acceptance and financial stability. Is Fancy really so much a 19th century feminist as to think marriage less desirable than employed spinsterhood?
Ella's Gran wrote: "Lily wrote: "How old do you think Fancy is? Sixteen? Eighteen? ..?She is acting about sixteen to me -- young, sweet, one minute sure of herself, another doubting, desirous of flattery, naively tr..."
Regarding Fancy's age, it was not unusual for elementary school teachers in village schools to start working when they're 15-16 after completing one or two years of teacher training. It was actually a bit difficult to find older teachers since many women didn't want to continue working after they got married and started having children of their own. Village schools also typically only had a small number of quite young students who, for the most part, completed their education by the time they were 8 or 9 (once they had learned how to read, write and do basic arithmetic) so it wasn't too hard for a 16 year old to manage them. The age when children could leave school increased over time but given that this novel is set in the earlier period of the Victorian era I doubt Fancy had students much older than 10.
Being able to live for free in the school house was one of the biggest perks of being a school teacher, I think it would have been a bit unusual for a teacher to live with someone else like the vicar because she would've had to pay them for accommodation and teacher salaries weren't very high.
Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Fancy seems more worried about her appearance than Dick being accepted as a suitor. Her deliberate choice to look coquettish instead of serious tells us something about her feelings..."Also remember how women were judged.
Going back to Ginny's comment five days ago (the names Fancy and Dew)...and before we leave Summer...I just want to agree about Hardy's intentions with these two, that he is really "mocking young love". That whole trip back from Budmouth, with Dick racing his cart like something akin to American Graffiti, and that burlesque of a proposal at the inn....I can hardly judge the character of Fancy. She comes across as self-absorbed and vain, maddening and irresponsible, and my reading self keeps wanting to warn Dick, Stay away from this girl, she will break your heart. But Hardy has given her a caged bird, and I have to believe there is
...more to Fancy, something I can sympathize with.(grabbed the edge of the ipad to reach the phone and, well, you know the rest.)
Linda wrote: "...more to Fancy, something I can sympathize with.(grabbed the edge of the ipad to reach the phone and, well, you know the rest.)"
Linda wrote: "Going back to Ginny's comment five days ago (the names Fancy and Dew)...and before we leave Summer...I just want to agree about Hardy's intentions with these two, that he is really "mocking young l..."
I do know how it is! :):)
I also agree with you in that there is possibly more to Fancy that we have yet to learn. I also kept telling Dick to be careful, and when he proposed I felt some despair and foreboding.
Was anyone else surprised at the brevity of Part the Third - Summer when compared to the length of the other three seasons?
Linda wrote: "...But Hardy has given her a caged bird, and I have to believe there is more to Fancy, something I can sympathize with.(grabbed the edge of the ipad to reach the phone and, well, you know the rest.)"
Yes! Of course. She is feeling like a "captive" in the cart, but I hadn't connected the caged bird.
It's interesting to me how people have quite different views of Fancy-while I tend to lack sympathy for flighty female characters I find I have a soft spot for Fancy-she seems independent, I rather liked her mini-rebellion of singing out in church against the men, and I like that she stands up to Dick around the hat/bonnet issue. I don't think she is necessarily flirting with other men in wanting to look attractive, I think that this is quite typical of young women who will dress up as much to demonstrate their status in society as to attract a mate. (For, rightly or wrongly, I think traditionally men have attained status by wealth, women by beauty.)
I didn't get the feeling Fancy felt trapped in the cart. I think she agreed to the proposal of her own free will.
Ginny wrote: "Yes! Of course. She is feeling like a "captive" in the cart, but I hadn't connected the caged bird. "Caged birds are symbolic in a number of Victorian novels, the most obvious of course being Bleak House.
Following the proposal and her acceptance, has Hardy given her the caged bird to symbolize the woman kept in comfort as a decorative object that provided amusement perhaps?
Ginny wrote: "Linda wrote: "...But Hardy has given her a caged bird, and I have to believe there is more to Fancy, something I can sympathize with.(grabbed the edge of the ipad to reach the phone and, well, yo..."
Captivity seems to be emerging as a motif in our discussions. We do have the caged bird being hung in her residence and the idea of her being a captive in the cart is something to reflect upon as well. Then there is the captivity of the social, familial and historical realities of Fancy's life. Even with her education, as sparce as it may be, what freedom of choice does a young lady ( or is it more accurate to say girl) have at the time the novel was set?
Her freedom of choice and movement is severely restricted. It could be argued that even Fancy'and Dick's soapy dalliance in the sink, while a great piece of writing, also demonstrates the restrictions and captivity two young and morally decent young adults faced in the village.
Ella's Gran wrote: "Following the proposal and her acceptance, has Hardy given her the caged bird to symbolize the woman kept in comfort as a decorative object that provided amusement perhaps?"Interesting thought. I'm not so sure, though, that Hardy is giving the bird that much symbolism. I'm wondering whether the importance of the bird is more in the Vicar to hanging it up for her rather than Dick, and that it had to be a bird rather than a picture because a birdcage is hung in the window so Dick can see him hanging it, rather than on the wall as a picture which Dick couldn't have seen him hanging.
That's the only time so far that the birdcage is mentioned. But we do have an incident of Shiner teaching her to catch birds with birdlime, because "I did so long to have a bullfinch." (And no wonder, they're very pretty birds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia... )
So the only times so far that captive birds are mentioned is in both cases to make Dick jealous of his rivals.
Sometimes a birdcage is just a birdcage? :)
There is the original mention of the birdcage in the description of the Keeper's house, when the activity of the canary above prevents the dark shade below from being "objectionable to visitors".
Frances wrote: "Sometimes a birdcage is just a birdcage? :)"I agree with you
Frances wrote: "Sometimes a birdcage is just a birdcage? :)"You remind me of the woman being interviewed about "The Magic Flute" at the HD Met performance today -- she spoke of the myriad levels at which the opera could be enjoyed. Similarly, a story written by some author becomes a text and a reader. Like you, oft I prefer "the birdcage is a birdcage" reading. But I must admit the comments here reminding me of Bleak House and The Goldfinch do have me wondering if I like applying some of the birdcage's symbolism to the story, regardless of Hardy's intent. In this case, I'm not sure, but I'm thankful for the discussion -- both ways.
What are your thoughts regarding Dick's and Fancy's relationship. Will it succeed since there is a discrepancy in social status and wealth?
Fancy seems more worried about her appearance than Dick being accepted as a suitor. Her deliberate choice to look coquettish instead of serious tells us something about her feelings. What is your opinion on this choice?