The World's Literature in Europe discussion

The discussion of Children in Reindeer Woods officially begins on Wednesday, April 2nd, but I thought I'd open the topic in advance so members would know where to post. I hope everyone enjoyed the book and can't wait to hear your thoughts.

Haven't started it yet, but I'll be back to comment as I'm reading.

Sounds excellent, Tara. Looking forward to April's reads!

Kristín Ómarsdóttir is an Icelandic poet, playwright and author from Iceland. Children of Reindeer Woods is her first novel to be translated into English (she had two books of poetry translated prior).

Though this is obviously a war novel, it reads like a fable. I think that's because the author never tells us where or when the story takes place. (Aside: I imagined everything happening in some Eastern European country). The sense of displacement, along with the violence in the opening scenes, creates a lot of tension and seems to contribute to the overall sense of strangeness.

I'm curious what everyone thinks about it (particularly those first few pages when the paratroopers arrive)?

The beginning is certainly brutal, disturbingly and nonsensically so, but I'm finding the comments and memories of the girl more interesting and provocative. Remains to be seen what the rest of the book will tell me.

I too was trying to place the place and time; the young girl mentions her travel by planes and trains and her and her father's possible trip to Africa. Her routines are altered, not particularly willingly, with the soldiers' coming to the country home. There's a series of discontinuities between a character's action and another character's response to it, all of which heightens the strangeness in an absurd way, not least of which is the formally polite introduction between Billie and Rafael.

I too was relieved by the girl's relative safety and her observations as she talks about her former parents. She's sort of in a separate bubble that could burst if conditions were slightly altered. She successfully changes her routines as to avert danger to herself. Her introspection/meditation about her past family life screens her off, too. Her point of view so far is calming to the opening events.

Likewise there are the names Rafael, Soffia, Billie, Abraham. They span countries and ages.

I have only been able to read about 1/4 of the book. It is unusual for Icelandic fiction, because it is not set in Iceland. I think it is possibly meant to be set in a time and place where the time and place are irrelevant, and that yes, it is a fable. More about war and childhood, so far. And the precarious nature of life.

Given the universality of this story, the mention of the "gluestick" can only be of slight interest. It came into use in the 1970s, and continues to be used. Besides that object is the dishwasher, which became widely popularized in the same decade. Europe seems a good place for the story because the conveniences have found their way to the countryside. Late-twentieth or early-twenty-first century seems timely.

Good quotes, Don. I especially like the first one - it seems very apropos to Reindeer Woods. I thought I had a handle on the story, and then read more about the dad being a puppet. I don't quite get it yet - is it a symbol? A mental illness? I am on page 101, so if there is a spoiler, don't tell me!

Judy, I was intrigued by the 'puppet' father and decided that dad was using that as a way to describe how the government was pulling his strings and guiding his life. I thought we might discover later in the book that he was a councilman, mayor, etc., but I'm not far enough in yet to know whether I was right or wrong.

Don wrote: "Asma wrote: "I too was trying to place the place and time; the young girl mentions her travel by planes and trains and her and her father's possible trip to Africa. Her routines are altered, not pa..."

I think you're absolutely right Don. I think that the author was purposely trying to avoid getting tied up in the details of specific wars.

The translator gave a talk on the book and one of the points he made was that the author sets it in a place that might not be so different from our own lives. With that in mind - all the domestic scenes and details like Barbie dolls and the glue stick take on a bigger import.

Another thing that stood out for me (moreso after the information you provided from the rumpus interview): with only one or two exceptions, the war usually intrudes on Reindeer Woods in the form of individual visitors from the outside world. The threat these individual's pose usually isn't violent - it's that they might disrupt the insular world the two main characters have created for themselves.

Maggie wrote: "Judy, I was intrigued by the 'puppet' father and decided that dad was using that as a way to describe how the government was pulling his strings and guiding his life. I thought we might discover l..."

Maggie & Judy - I'm really interested in what everyone makes of the puppet father. This is my second reading of the book and, to be honest, I've only vague ideas on the subject.

Tara wrote: "I think you're absolutely right Don. I think that the author was purposely trying to avoid getting tied up in the details of specific wars."

For instance, it's like the division between civilized standards and wartime's different standards. Such that in xviii-xix.(cont.), there's "Billie, do you feel like you've been cast into a story someone else made up?" Then, Rafael and Peter talk about "tidiness", an ideal of the properly civilized life, a way of life followed by Peter's grandmother and by training camp. But to Peter's family and to the two comrades that structure is beside the point of thing. In life, "Tidiness kills a man's ambition"; there's "sweat stench", "toe-scented socks", and "...it's best to relax one's standards which are no use to anyone at that moment...The basic requirement for victory is filth. Dirty toes. Stench of sweat, lice." The comrades are not without any ideal at all. The child Billie to both men exists apart from those practicalities and is revered.

Did anyone else notice that there are puppet's strings holding up/together the words on the front of the book?

Tara wrote: "...I'm really interested in what everyone makes of the puppet father. ..."

Maggie wrote: "Did anyone else notice that there are puppet's strings holding up/together the words on the front of the book?"

I noted the strings as playful, but forgot about them when I read about the father Abraham.

I noted from about II/xxi - xxiii and onwards, there's more about Billie's parents. The father is described with an attached arm, which he figuratively speaks of as the flexible, flappable arm of a puppet. As a jurist, it's convincing he's called upon to be swayed to one side or another.

Another point in that chapter is his comment about the nonexistence of crimes and of love. His comment resonates because Rafael is both a murderer and not a murderer, depending on the scene.

I certainly made the connection to Rafael of her father's specious legal argument, but like her mother I don't buy it anymore than Rafaels "they made me do it" contention.

True, the "they made me do it" is about the psychology of apperceptions, for example, Rafael's justifications for self-preservation when he murders other characters and for his good character in his keeping promises. It's like Soffia's advice to Billie for the child to find "her individual defense mechanism". And, Rafael's mother influencing his belief in his being good. The child Billie's defense is a "virtuous" non-defense, verbalized in her comment,

"The discomfort others cause you, whether animals or men, shouldn't be repaid with discomfort; instead, you should let it pass without reacting" [II/xxv],

which makes her unthreatening to Rafael. The place names (Ceaseless Heath, Endless Pass, Forever Valley) are reminiscent of a child's unworried mind.

Asma wrote: "True, the "they made me do it" is about the psychology of apperceptions, for example, Rafael's justifications for self-preservation when he murders other characters and for his good character in hi..."


I can also see in Billie's behaviour, a definite type of post-traumatic stress reaction. When she goes into the bedroom as Rafael is on the verge of losing it over the chicken poop in the house, she makes up the beds to look nice. I think she is trying to somehow ensure that Rafael will not turn on her. And she then prays to be "good".
I think this must surely be a common thing for people, and perhaps children most of all, in this type of situation. Children and war. Children and abuse. All of those types of situations involving fear.

I thought it was interesting when Rafael insisted on sending Billie away during the murders and the cleaning, saying there are things children shouldn't see. He seemed to forget she'd been forced to see the first murders happen around her and walk around the blood.

Maggie wrote: "I thought it was interesting when Rafael insisted on sending Billie away during the murders and the cleaning, saying there are things children shouldn't see. He seemed to forget she'd been forced ..."

Yes, there is a very strange duality of thinking in Rafael. I agree.

Judy wrote: "...post-traumatic stress reaction...All of those types of situations involving fear. "

The point is worth considering. It isn't clear how well the children at the orphanage were cared for. For any number of reasons, Billie is very dirty when she and Rafael introduce themselves to each other.

The soldier, too, would be liable to extreme stress. In the middle of the book, he sort of comes out of it, coming to terms with what he's been doing to others, then penalizing himself, and making a vow of pacifism in his treatment of other human beings. He is his own judge, jury, and sentencer in his desire to live "clean" of murdering and swindling. The farmer's life is a balm for him.

Don wrote: "Maggie wrote: "Did anyone else notice that there are puppet's strings holding up/together the words on the front of the book?"

Yes, the strings kept me thinking quite a bit. I kept wondering if t..."

The book cover illustrates some scenes in this story. There's the dense, doubly hued green, pine trees around the valley. The slanted strings of the airborne, swinging title bring the visiting parachutist to mind, as well as the puppeteer strings which other commenters already noted. The brown lettering is made of wood logs or even of writing carved or burnt into wood. The soft colors of blue, greens, and sienna speak of Billie's watercolors.

My partner and I are now reading this book together, with me starting over from the beginning. We are now on p 105, almost caught up to where I was before...

David commented this a.m. that the whole aspect of jurisprudence and the sudden realization by Abraham that there is no crime, could be related to the war. Neither of us has any clear idea (at least yet), of how long the war has been going on. How can law mean anything in a society when people are killing and being killed left and right? How can theft be a crime, how can the murder of person even be a crime amidst all of the death and horror of war?

I also thought, by this morning, that there is a huge similarity between Billie's doll play and the story in the entire novel. Frequently, the storyline dissolves into a kind of "nonsense" or unreality. The conversation between Rafael and the parachutist, for example, albeit drunken, is an example. Very like the doll play. Maybe the whole novel is a "doll play" or a puppet show about war and its effect on people within it.

Don wrote: "...I kept wondering if the author was making some kind of comment on how out of our own control our lives can be...between free will...experience....genetics...the idea of the narration...breaking all those strings. "

Judy wrote: "...Maybe the whole novel is a "doll play" or a puppet show about war and its effect on people within it."

It seems so. It's fear of harm to himself that causes Rafael's murdering other characters. That emotion of overwhelming fearfulness in wartime controls his life's activities rather than the goal-oriented attitudes of "Ambition. Career. Science." He wants the farmer's life. And, Billie's grandmother advises Soffia, "...let reason rule your journey." The older woman sees her daughter Soffia as sacrificing her life's journey to the strings of marriage. Soffia comments about the details which are attached like puppet strings to a child's birth, "Terrible details like who your parents are. Where you are born. Whether one has a lot of savings in the bank." So far to the point in the book I'm at III/xxxxii, Rafael is actually thinking about whether Agnes Elisabét Karmela is an honest nun or a disguised spy rather than his automatically being ruled by lawless fear. The theme of the book so far is the characters' being initially controlled by sociobiological instincts then their evolving to use their intelligence to decide what they do. The theme extends to wartime and to everyday living.

Maggie wrote: "Did anyone else notice that there are puppet's strings holding up/together the words on the front of the book?"

I completely missed that! Thank you for pointing it out.

Judy wrote: "My partner and I are now reading this book together, with me starting over from the beginning. We are now on p 105, almost caught up to where I was before...

David commented this a.m. that the wh..."

Judy -

I believe you're right. This is my second time reading the book and both times it seemed like an allegory - on the subject of war. So you're considering the possibility that it's meant as a puppet play resonates.

Rafael has decided that he no longer wants anything to do with the war he's come from. He's determined to shut himself and Billie off from events in the outside world. He doesn't seek to end the war; or to protest it; nor does he attempt of look at the moral repercussions/foundations of it. He chooses to ignore it. Billie's father's writing serves to justify his decision and action - but we're also shown that there are flaws in the father's philosophy. Not everyone buys into it.

The author was living in Spain during the outbreak of the Iraqi War and has said that the book was written in part as a response to that (though I don't think it has to do specifically with any war, but is speaking to all wars in general). I believe Children In Reindeer Woods deals with the idea that people (civilians) sometimes choose to classify war as happening "somewhere else" - and that allows them to ignore it. But, ultimately, war intrudes on and effects everyone's lives - its consequences are inescapable.

There are some definite flaws in this theory, but I'm still trying to work it all out.

The final chapter mingles two settings. One of them is on a different planet from earth; then the scene reverts to Rafael and Billie's farmhouse on earth. As Billie's father's earlier allusion to the puppeteers on another planet, so those puppeteers are sorting the various limbs, but throwing away the heads which differ one from another. The poetic license in the narrative about the puppeteers on another planet, and their association with Abraham's comments to Billie, are at odds with the realistic narrative. That interplanetary part though fits in with the passage of that same chapter about "the poets' and the singers' work" in Abraham's book: "It's part of the poets' and singers' work to put into words the mute wishes of the people. A great responsibility rests on their shoulders." (IV/xxxxvii.) Rafael finds those assertions risible before joining Billie to play with dolls, to create the scenarios for the male dolls presumably fulfilling Abraham's allusion to the poet-singers by verbalizing his "mute wishes" in the dolls' actions and talk.

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Just popping in to say my book should arrive tomorrow and I look forward to joining the discussion...in the meantime I have not read any of the comments. :)

Although unusual for an Icelandic novel in that the setting is not Iceland, there are definitely references to Iceland in this novel. I suppose that even if an author wanted to write a book with no fixed setting or identifiable culture, it would be extremely hard to get away from one's own cultural past, phrases, etc. An example is in the list of "mantras" that Rafael uses to control his headaches, on p. 132. "Soon better times will come, there'll be flowers in the meadow". This is a translation of a few lines of a short poem by Iceland's famous author Halldór Laxness and this poem was also set to music.

Marieke wrote: "Just popping in to say my book should arrive tomorrow and I look forward to joining the discussion...in the meantime I have not read any of the comments. :)"

The story is very different from its advertisements. The two main characters, especially the girl, is very human. Even her father controlled by the puppeteers makes a puppet human. Rafael is all too human, like a wayward man getting some enlightenment. Unless the author writes a sequel to the story, the reader can only surmise whether he progresses to righteousness or whether he makes uneven progress.

Judy wrote: "...it would be extremely hard to get away from one's own cultural past, phrases, etc..."Soon better times will come, there'll be flowers in the meadow"..."

Laxness would have agreed with you, Judy. In the Nobel banquet speech, he said, "My father and mother, but above all, my grandmother...taught me hundreds of lines of old Icelandic poetry before I ever learned the alphabet....It is a great good fortune for an author to be born into a nation so steeped in centuries of poetry and literary tradition."

I have never read Laxness' Nobel speech, so the quote is very interesting. Thank you again, Asma. Laxness was a true Icelander, I think. Steeped in tradition, but stepping over the boundaries in his literature. Toying with the language, as most don't. Forcing the reader to look unflinchingly at hard truths, yet having a brilliant sense of humour.

Finished today! Here is a brief review. Many more issues later....

I feel I am as yet unable to give this book a rating. I have not had enough time to truly process it. Thought-provoking? Absolutely. Gripping? Without a doubt. I am just not completely sure that I understand all of the implications at the end of this novel.

Children in Reindeer Woods is an Icelandic novel, which very unusually is not set in Iceland. Its setting is vaguely European, and many languages and phrases from different countries run through it. I believe that this book is in itself an anti-war statement in the most general sense.

Deaths are seemingly random and at times unpredictable. Characters are often suffering from PTSD, especially Billie, the child, and Rafael, the soldier.

Search for redemption on Raphael's part, Billie's skills of survival in an uncontrollable situation, Abraham the jurist who is writing the laws of the planet for the puppeteers on another planet, and characters who wander through the novel are all a part of this dystopic landscape of war and its effects.

The writing is exceptional, and the translation runs very smoothly.

The plot leaves you guessing and trying to make sense of a senseless world.

Asma wrote: "The final chapter mingles two settings. One of them is on a different planet from earth; then the scene reverts to Rafael and Billie's farmhouse on earth. As Billie's father's earlier allusion to t..."

I hadn't thought of this at first - the passage from IV about the roles of the poets and singers. Thank you, Asma, for pointing that out. Perhaps then, the author also feels that it is her role as a "poet/singer" (she has many books of poetry, as well), to voice the mute wishes of the people?

i finished and i've been mulling over it. i've read through your comments here. I'm glad that you all seemed to struggle with some of the same elements that I did. I'm wondering, do any of you feel, as readers, disconcerted? I don't mean about the topic, but the way the book is structured and how certain types of information are left out, and how other types of information are presented?

for instance, someone already pointed out that we don't know how well the children were cared for. But nor do we even know how Billie came to be in the orphanage. we can guess that her parents split up or they died or that Billie's father really was a puppet called home to his alien planet (?!).

It wasn't ever clear to me what was supposed to be real and what I'm supposed to understand as metaphor.

And then I really enjoyed the writing. I thought the writing was lovely, but then there were these bursts of violence or you expected some violence. Part of me struggled with that as a reader, yet at the same time i imagined this is what experiencing war might be like: a lot of nothing happening, it's really quite boring, BUT THEN something really bad/scary/upsetting happens

okay i'll stop because i'm going to start rambling...

Marieke wrote: "i finished and i've been mulling over it. i've read through your comments here. I'm glad that you all seemed to struggle with some of the same elements that I did. I'm wondering, do any of you feel..."

Somewhere I got the sense that her parents, and the parents of the other children, had sent them to the country for safety, much like the English did during the Blitz. From Billie's descriptions of how things were done I got the sense that they were very well cared for and that there education was being kept up. I seem to remember that the table was set up for a reading/writing lesson when Rafael first arrives, and that Billie sees that there was a paper the 7 year old would have completed (were he not already buried) sitting on the table.

One thing that bothered me was that the phone calls abruptly stopped. I think it would have added to the tension if they had stopped for a period and then begun again. Billie's family appeared to be very close, so I can't imagine her mother would quit calling unless she were unable to do so. I didn't, however, find it strange that Billie never thinks about those missing phone calls, because her survival instinct has kicked in and she's dealing moment to moment with the reality she's given.

Judy wrote: "I have never read Laxness' Nobel speech, so the quote is very interesting. Thank you again, Asma. Laxness was a true Icelander, I think. Steeped in tradition, but stepping over the boundaries in..."

Laxness's Nobel banquet speech repeats several times the influence of Icelanders in his writing and on his personal values.

Judy wrote: "...The writing is exceptional, and the translation runs very smoothly.

The plot leaves you guessing and trying to make sense of a senseless world. "

Judy, sounds like you would recommend this book!

Judy wrote: "...Perhaps then, the author also feels that it is her role as a "poet/singer" (she has many books of poetry, as well), to voice the mute wishes of the people? "

The people for whom the poet/singer is writing might already share something in common with the p/s so that they are receptive to her/his message.

Marieke wrote: "...It wasn't ever clear to me what was supposed to be real and what I'm supposed to understand as metaphor...."

One unmentioned allusion among these several comments is the names of Biblical characters, such as Abraham and Isaac. When I think of that reference, the bad events are averted, and the frightening war story is transformed by grace. (Also, the playful idea of puppeteering as being imaginary play.) However, adult reality doesn't necessarily end like that and its fatality might be unstoppable to an extent, as Rafael's dual nature of destructive acts to visitors and of nurturing acts to Billie illustrate. Rafael and Billie play together with her dolls at the end, as if they are themselves the puppeteers in control rather than the war's impacting them. Imo, the story is meant to distance the direct contact with wartime and to cast man as trying to reestablish some kind of regular life.

Maggie wrote: "...One thing that bothered me was that the phone calls abruptly stopped. I think it would have added to the tension if they had stopped for a period and then begun again. Billie's family appeared to be very close, so I can't imagine her mother would quit calling unless she were unable to do so..."

The vacuum of Billie's previous life remains mysterious, especially since she had only arrived at Reindeer Woods some months ago without any further explanation. Throughout the physical separation with her parents, Billie often thinks about both of them, so the reader knows them via Billie. However, her father Abraham's puppet strings to another planet perhaps is his way of coping with the reality of having only one useful arm. It's a humorous fiction for his coping. It's surprising that the phone connection is operating, given the farms's location.

So what does everyone think happened to the other soldier. Talk about a threat to Rafael. How does his diappearance advance the story?

Maggie wrote: "So what does everyone think happened to the other soldier. Talk about a threat to Rafael. How does his diappearance advance the story?"

Is this the soldier or perhaps the shepherd?

I was talking of Peter, who left without his boot, guitar, and backpack of supplies, apparently (according to Rafael) cycling off to the airfield. His questions to Rafael and knowledge of Rafael and his mission were a threat to Rafael. Billie apparently accepts his disappearance.

Maggie wrote: "I was talking of Peter, who left without his boot, guitar, and backpack of supplies, apparently (according to Rafael) cycling off to the airfield. His questions to Rafael and knowledge of Rafael a..."

my thought, although i was uncertain, was that Rafael killed him and Billie knew. After the nun left Billie asked "did you kill her too?" and to me that meant that she knew he had killed Peter, but of course that is based on not much, because the author doesn't give us much...

Marieke wrote: "my thought, although i was uncertain, was that Rafael killed him and Billie knew. After the nun left Billie asked "did you kill her too?" and to me that meant that she knew he had killed Peter, but of course that is based on not much, because the author doesn't give us much..."

I thought that Billie's comment came in response to the revenue agents who were murdered by Rafael, after Pete's disappearance, but she could have been responding to (and it was her first verbal recognition to Rafael of his actions) any of them. With the comments she makes in her head about the boot and the backpack, she acknowledges her confusion between what she sees and what Rafael is telling her, but she never verbalizes it to Rafael. Even one of the revenue agents comments on the boot. But that's where it's left and as the reader you get no more information.

I personally thought he murdered him, especially because his knowledge of Rafael's mission and military knowledge was such an incredible threat to Rafael. I also don't think Pete would have wanted to leave without saying goodbye to Billie (and there seems no good reason for him to have rushed off without doing so). He seemed to connect with her. But as the reader we're not privy to any information either way.

I think this is one of the strengths of the novel - that we are not fed too much information. Life is like that, in my opinion. There are many things we are not told in life, and nothing is cut and dried.
I personally also believe that Pete was murdered. His boot, his guitar, all of the supplies were left behind. Rafael's extreme need to begin this new life and not get reported means that nobody can leave once they are there. Until, of course, the nun. But that is later.

Even the nun is mysterious because they couldn't find her when They went looking for her. I like to think she left alive, but...

Yes, those things about Pete also added to my thought that Rafael had killed him: the things left behind and the fact that as a member of the military, he was a huge threat to Rafael's little utopia.

I just think that Rafael would not have gone running off in the car with Billie to look for the nun, if he had killed her. I think he weakened his resolve with the nun. I also think she was not who she appeared to be, but who knows who she really was.... So much left to the imagination.