North & South discussion

~ Episode One, Part 2:
Starting with Margaret and her mother seeing the Thornton’s from the window, ending at the end of the episode. (“I believe I’ve seen Hell, and it’s white… It’s snow white.” I just love that).

I love that quote too. We didn't even need it because the visual is there to give us a clue but it really brings home just how awful Margaret feels. She's cut off from her family, her friends, the only life she's ever known and taken to this place that's so dramatically different. It's bleak, gray, unhealthy and a bit scary.

Well yes, the visual helps, obviously, but what really brings it home is the whole combination of things - the visual, the quite, and then the way that beautiful, haunting music rises as we see Thornton striding through the bleak mill. The loneliness is so poignant in that scene, for both Margaret and for Thornton.

I just had a thought - right before that "I've seen Hell" bit, we see Margaret lying asleep on her desk, in the middle of writing that letter the Edith. Obviously the end of Episode 1 is quite a low point for Margaret, and it just occurred to me Margaret sleeping on the desk is very similar to how me see Thornton asleep at his desk during the last episode, when he's at his terribly low point, between his business slowly crumbling and Margaret seeming forever lost to him. Does anyone think that similarity was intentional? Whether it was or not, both instances are really deeply affecting.

Very good point and brilliant observation there! I think you are right, mostly. I would say it was deliberate, the parallels. However is this her lowest point? What about when everyone starts dying on her in episode three?!

Thank you, it did only just occur to me, though - after, like, the fiftieth time watching N&S. :) No, I certainly don't think it is her absolute lowest point, but it's definitely when she's trying to come to terms with what's happening to her. And I think Thornton's parallel moment is when he's starting to come to terms with the fact that his business is failing, no matter how hard he's fighting to save it. :(

Very true. Good observation, as I said.

That's an excellent observation. I think it shows the strain they are both under, adjusting to a new life that doesn't include the familiar comfortable routine they're used to. Margaret is exhausted from the move, caring for her parents, adjusting to the climate and air pollution, avoiding getting hurt by the workers, trying to be neighborly, etc. etc. It's no wonder she thinks Milton is Hell. While John's Hell is a world without his business. He's been working himself to the bone trying to keep it and he can't.

Thanks Qnpoohbear. They really are under incredible emotional and mental strain, both of them during these moments. I mean, we know how much Margaret was dealing with at the time, and as you say, it's no wonder she says that she thinks Milton is Hell. And I think it should be noted that Thonton's "Hell" is not only due to his business - though of course that's what's made him fall asleep at his desk. He's also lost his very good friend, Mr Hale, Margaret has left Milton, and he's still under the misapprehension that she has some other lover aside from himself.

Why do you think it was that John stopped Mr Bell talking, right before he was going to tell him about Frederick? Was it just because he couldn't bear to hear Margaret talked of any more?

I think someone (somewhere) mention the two train scenes from the beginning and the end. There are a lot of meaningful parallels in this show, a lot of ful circles :)

Totally off topic from the previous comments, but...

I always felt so bad for Mrs. Hale when Mrs. Thornton unknowingly made that stab at Fred. I forget her exact words, but it's like telling Mrs. Hale that she doesn't have a son worth bragging about. I know Mrs. Thornton has no clue about Fred... But the look on Mrs. Hale's face! :'(

And speaking of looks... Please tell me y'all noticed the look on Thornton's face when he knocked on the Hales' door? Love it!! ;)

Oh, I totally agree with you - you see Mrs Hales face fall just a little at Mrs Thorntons words, and I do have real sympathy for her then. I mean, she really does have a very admirable son, but can't "sing his praises", because his good principles cost him an honorable life in England.

I think I know which look you're referring to - if it is the one I'm thinking of, I only just caught it in this last watch through - its that cute little smile, right? :)

Where?! :)

Ah, see, I might be mistaken, because I only caught it very briefly, but I thought he had a rather nice smile on his face when he knocked on the Hales door, when he first went to have tea with them. I need to go back and look again.

That is the very look I meant, Becca. :)
He had just told his mother that Mr. Hale was a gentleman & his daughter an accomplished young woman, but he was in no danger from Miss Hale. I said to my niece, "Yeah, but the look on his mother's face says that she doesn't believe it." Then you see him go up to their door & he has this little smile on his face that wouldn't be put there if he was only going to see Mr. Hale... ;P

Oh good, I got it right. :)
I'm really very sad that I didn't see that little smile before this time watching the series. It really is very brief, but when I caught it my heart gave a little leap - it's just so adorable! Speaking of adorable, I love the way he smiles at his mother, in that wryly amused but genuinely sweet and loving way. And indeed, Thornton was quite right - he wasn't in any danger from Miss Hale, at that point, but he does look remarkably happy to be seeing her, for all that!

Which makes it all the more sad the way the night ended... :( Poor thing.

On a different note: what do people think of the scene where Mr Hale has dinner with Mr Thornton and all the masters? I think I've made it clear in the past how much of an ill opinion I have of the masters, but during that scene I always feel quite sorry for Mr Hale. He continually advocates his strong Christian principles, and though he isn't necessarily shouted down, the reception of his ideas had to be dispiriting at the very least.

Also, one of Thornton's lines in the scene is... interesting, to put it mildly. "Sound business sense, Mr Hale, and I cannot operate under any other moral law. I do not run a charitable institution. My workers expect me to be hard, but truthful... I always tell them how things are, and they either take it or they leave it."
That little piece of dialogue always inspired a great deal of respect and admiration in me, but - pertaining to the first part - also the slightest sense of disquiet. He doesn't seem very... kind, I suppose, though he does get much better as the series goes on, I think. Did anyone else feel at all the same way, or am I being foolish?

I don't know what to think of that scene, that is, which side to take. He was harsh and blunt but a much better master than most at that time.

I think that Thornton's opinion at that point is a result of his upbringing. In many ways he is right about how he needs to be in that environment to be a success... it's Margaret that shows him he can bend a little without losing respect, and help others without becoming responsible for every aspect of their lives.

You're right, Louise, I think it is a result of his upbringing. And I mean, it certainly does make sense to me to run a business purely based on economic principles... but I don't have to like it. I think Thornton always had the capacity to be kind, but it was sort of trained out of him - he didn't feel it expedient or even possible to be kind in certain situations, without, as you say, losing respect. It's one of the nicest things about the series, I think, that between Margaret and Higgins, Thornton is able to understand how to unbend a little, as you put it. And, of course, as soon as Higgins sees that Thornton actually does have the capacity for kindness without losing his strict business principles... That's when they really start to understand one another. :)

Becca wrote: "On a different note: what do people think of the scene where Mr Hale has dinner with Mr Thornton and all the masters? I think I've made it clear in the past how much of an ill opinion I have of the..."

You're not the only one Becca I felt much the same way too. The first time that I watched the series I was taking more Mr. Hale/Margaret's side, but as I watched it again I understood better Thornton's side of it. But I must say that in that scene he did sound rather unkind and harsh, but as Samantha said, still a better master than the others.

Anne wrote: "Becca wrote: "On a different note: what do people think of the scene where Mr Hale has dinner with Mr Thornton and all the masters? I think I've made it clear in the past how much of an ill opinion..."

I do understand both sides, but as you say, it does sort of take a while to come round to understand Thornton's way of thinking. And indeed, however unkind he may have sounded, he did express his opinion in the most eloquent and respectable way possible - and he could not be any more unfeeling than those other creatures that call themselves masters. Mr Bell pretty much hit the nail on the head when he called Slickson a slimy eel. So true. Of all of them.

Speaking of, I love the way Thornton looks when that other master - was it Hampers? - is talking about not having to install the wheel. He has that slight smile on his face, but his disapproval is so evident in that he keeps his lips firmly sealed, refusing to laugh with the rest of them. And I love how smug he looks, too, when he explains his reasoning behind having had a wheel in his sheds for the past two years. When he's finished, I just have to laugh at how all the other masters are sort of shifting uncomfortably in their seats, unable to argue with Thornton's reasoning. :D

I find Thornton tough to like in the Masters' dinner scene too. I agree with Louise - Margaret and her insistence that there is a need to act with more moral sense than only "sound business sense" does change Thornton. And of course Margaret's opinion on a need to act paternalistically towards one's employees changes as well. It's a nice scene to set up those character changes, but boy is it hard to not want to poke John in the eye for refusing to see a need for moral behavior in business.

Maybe some modern CEOs could use a Margaret in their lives too!

Kate wrote: "I find Thornton tough to like in the Masters' dinner scene too. I agree with Louise - Margaret and her insistence that there is a need to act with more moral sense than only "sound business sense"..."

*doubles up with laughter* Oh, Kate! How you make me laugh! You have such brilliant phrasing: "... boy is it hard to not want to poke John in the eye for refusing to see a need for moral behaviour in business." Classic! :D Here was me advocating John's desperate need for a hug, and now I find he also apparently needs a poke in the eye! Oh dear. *giggles*

Slightly more seriously though, I do still like Thornton in the scene, and really do respect how he is so firm in his belief that he needs to be truthful with his workers. It's just that one line that causes me uneasiness, but as you say, it was a nice line to set up the character change, I suppose. And I am so glad that Thornton and Margaret are able to sort of meet in the middle, changing each other a little as they each come to understand each others views.

I know it's in a completely different place - though the topic is related - but does anyone else think there was just a teensy bit of shame (along with surprise, and thoughtfulness) in Thornton's face, when Margaret says: "But surely, to give a dying baby food, is not just a question of logic?"

Becca wrote: "Anne wrote: "Becca wrote: "On a different note: what do people think of the scene where Mr Hale has dinner with Mr Thornton and all the masters? I think I've made it clear in the past how much of a..."

I agree, it takes a while to understand his way of thinking, but he is certainly not a slimy eel like the others ;) (that was well said of Mr. Bell!).

Yes - I love that moment! Thornton is so superior to the rest of them!!

I loved when Margaret said "But surely to give a dying baby food is not just a question of logic?". I was completely agreeing with her, and Thornton's face definitely showed a bit of remorse and surprise at those words. I think it was well said of her.

Anne wrote: "Becca wrote: "Anne wrote: "Becca wrote: "On a different note: what do people think of the scene where Mr Hale has dinner with Mr Thornton and all the masters? I think I've made it clear in the past..."

Ah, Mr Bell, you have a wonderful gift for choosing words. Slimy eels indeed. No better way to say it, really, is there?

Honestly, with Thornton around, it's a wonder the other masters aren't continually ashamed about themselves as human beings, and masters. For example, that part where Thornton says to Hamper; "I overheard some of my men talking. It seems you're planning to give in to them. We agreed, we'd all be in line; so the men would know we meant business, and know that we kept our word." If I were Hamper I would have literally melted into a tiny puddle of shame in the corner, especially when faced with Thornton's dark, unwavering glare.

It was very well said of Margaret - and you can see how distressed she is about Thornton's attitude. His remorse and surprise is pretty well hidden, but you can see it in his eyes, the subtle change of expression, and in that couple of seconds he takes to recover his balance after her comment. Still, I doubt any of the other masters would have felt any shame at all following Margaret's statement.

I think it's part of Richard Armitage's greatness that he gets across that shamed surprise after Margaret's comment...and a stark and startling commentary on the politics and beliefs of those around the table that they did not agree. Perhaps RA even manages to get across the fact that Thornton is suffering from living in a bit of an echo chamber and Margaret has reminded him that no one deserves poverty.

It really is such a testament to Richards acting skill, what he can convey with the tiniest change in his expression. The change is really quite subtle, but enough to show Thornton's being taken a little aback by Margaret's statement. I doubt the masters in the room would have even noticed that Thornton actually does listen to Margaret, that her words actually do have weight with him - of course, they don't care at all, about dying babies or poverty or the workers.

I think Richard Armitage does a fantastic job of conveying Thornton's being a little lonely in his very tightly constructed world. And he does an equally good job of showing how Margaret sort of reconnects Thornton with that memory or idea of how terrible it can be to be in poverty.

Would anyone care to share their views on that line where Thornton says: "Not all masters are the same, Mr Bell. You do us an injustice to always think we're all up to some underhand scheme or another." Does anyone know quite what he means by that?

(Also, I just have to mention that smile he gives towards, I think, Miss Latimer, right after that. Did that smile look really practised and slightly false to anyone else?)

So there was just a piece on National Public Radio this morning (http://www.npr.org/2014/04/09/3008368... Shankar Vidantum interview) where he talked about a recent study of men and women and business ethics. The study suggests that men are likely to see clearly an ethical course in a dilemma when the effect on them will be negative, but are more likely to see the ethical course as more flexible if the effect on them will be positive. Women are likely to see the ethical path more clearly regardless.

So - I am not a huge fan of boys-are-one-way-girls-another research, but I submit this as a possibility for Thornton's positions as the Masters' dinner or with the starving baby problem, vs. Margaret's opinions on these matters.

Kate wrote: "So there was just a piece on National Public Radio this morning (http://www.npr.org/2014/04/09/3008368... Shankar Vidantum interview) where he talk..."

I suppose that is a plausible explanation, at least for part of his behaviour. :) I'd not thought of it that way before. Also, though, I've often though that part of it might stem from Thornton's need to appear unbending, the strong business man in front of the other masters. I mean, he doesn't reprimand Margaret for her basket until after Mr Bell informs them all the the man Margaret was helping was from Marlborough Mills. Up until then, Thornton kind of seems more inclined to let it slide. But after Mr Bells unfortunate words, I get the impression that Thornton feels it to be his responsibility in front of the other masters to speak against the strike, and therefore against Margaret's conduct in being charitable towards the strikers.

That's interesting, Becca, I hadn't thought of T as needing to show strength in front of his peers but it seems very likely.

So a bit of showing off, poor guy, and ends looking bad in front of his girl.

Well, I don't really see it as showing off - I just kind of got the feeling that before Mr Bell decided to run his mouth, Thornton would have preferred just to let the whole awkward business go by. At which point, seeing as Boucher is from his mill, so he probably didn't have much of a choice - either reprimand Margaret, or lose face. Poor guy indeed - sometimes I just wish Mr Bell would learn when to shut the hell up!

I'm completely convinced that Thornton's expression (including a glance downward) after Margaret's line about a starving child not being a question of logic showed that Margaret had won the argument. He knew it. And that's part of the reason why his smile to Ann Latimer is not genuine. He's recovering from the uncomfortable episode.
I felt both of their great discomfort at having had to fight in public. Margaret looks distressed, and Thornton by no means looks happy afterward.
(Actually, my newest book starts with Margaret going to this dinner and the effect it has on both of them!)
I can easily imagine John mulling over everything Margaret said and did (and the way she looked!!) again and again that evening, after all the guests had gone. She really gets to him, both mind and heart.

Oh, and it wasn't all Bell's fault. Fanny is the one who brought the topic up. Little brat, wasn't she? Love Hannah's face when she looks for her son's reaction.

You're quite right, Trudy, I think Margaret did win that exchange - in Thornton's eyes at least, thigh perhaps not in the eyes of the masters. The fight was inevitable, after Mr Bells comment, as Mr Thornton had to respond and Margaret is not the type of young woman just to sit there and take it when she knows she's right.

That smile was decidedly uncomfortable! I mean, it was nice, of course, but it was evidently concealing his shame and discomfort. I too can imagine this little episode being added to the long list of incidences with Margaret that must often occupy his mind. However, I don't think Margaret's distress only comes from fighting with Thornton, but also from perceiving the harsh, uncaring attitude of the masters towards the workers; perhaps she is distressed because she is worried Thornton truly believes in that attitude?

Ah, here we have all been blaming Mr Bell, forgetting it was Fanny who started it! She was very much a brat, though I do wonder if she planned the interchange, or if it was just the malicious prompting of the moment.

Very interesting conversations. I always managed to understand Thornton and his attitude towards work and I felt for him. The way he runs his mill is harsh but fair and it is successful. So why should he change what is working for him? He has found a good way to run it and it comfortable with it.

Yes indeed, I do understand his attitude towards work - one can't deny it's effectiveness - and as previously noted it's still more honourable than the way the rest of the masters run their mills! But even understanding Thornton's view, the slightly uneasy feeling is still there when he says those words. Despite that, I really do respect the way he runs the mill, and how he learns over the course of the series how to bend a little, to show compassion without losing face.