Reading the Chunksters discussion

Whew! What a finale for this book! This section consists of two books, and one of them is about the criminal underworld, and I truly felt underwhelmed while reading it, but the other one was, to put it simply, breathtaking. Below are some questions to consider, but post in any form you like.

1. What is the function of book VII? Do you think this shadowy underworld will be important in future?

2. Why does Hugo disclose the true nature of Jondrette aka Thenardier, but M. Leblanc stays Leblanc? Is there any chance that he is just M. Leblanc or as he calls himself Urbain Fabre?

3. How can you characterize the behaviour of Marius and his mental struggle? On one hand, he was trying to be loyal to the memory of his father, but on the other hand, he saw that Thenardier was a perverted and disgusting human being. Is his struggle comparable to the one M. Madelaine had earlier in the book.

4. Sometimes, the novel resembles the Greek tragedy in a sense that its main characters can not escape their fate: they keep meeting the same people again. Jean Valjean keeps meeting Javert and the Thenardiers again under different names. It seems like the world is limited to these people only. Is this image of the world Hugo creates believable?

6. Is his novel indeed a tragedy a la Greque?

7. When did you start suspecting that Jondrette is Thenardier?

8. Do you feel sorry for Eponime and Azelma? Was it a revelation for you that Gavroche was also a Thenardier?

9. Why does Hugo ascribe Jean Valjean nearly a superpower qualities to escape, to tolerate pain, or to start his life anew?

Yes, what a great section! As for Book VII, I began by trying to remember all the newly introduced characters - their physical appearance and traits. But I couldn't keep them all straight so I figured I would come back to Book VII as reference if needed. I assumed these characters would eventually make their appearance later in the novel.

I really felt for Marius' struggle to do the right thing, but personally I felt that his struggle lasted longer than it should have. I felt that his witnessing of Jondrette's true nature in numerous examples, that he would have made the decision to help M. LeBlanc quicker. I think his struggle was close to M. Madelaine's struggle, but not quite the same. Either decision M. Madelaine could have made would've guaranteed that someone was going to be hurt - the man on trial, or Fantine and the other townspeople whose lives were bettered by M. Madelaine.

I am quite surprised by the number of "coincidences" in terms of the various people meeting the same people over and over again. To me, that is not reality. However, I think it perhaps represents the struggle which might be felt by people who are constantly working and struggling to pull themselves out of poverty or the trapped situations they find themselves in. That for all they do to try and escape, there are always some of the same conditions and circumstances which hold them down.

I knew that Jondrette was Thenardier when Thenardier and Thenardiess were physically described, however I suspected it was them a bit earlier than that, and perhaps simply because the same characters seem to reappear and they seemed to fit the nasty characteristics of the Thenardiers.

Yes, I do feel sorry for Eponime and Azelma. Just as Cosette could not escape the wrath of the Thenardiers and adopted certain characteristics because of her surroundings and upbringing (being frightened, feeling unworthy of anything, feeling alone), so were the daughters of the Thenardiers. They also adopted characteristics due to their upbringing - easily deceiving strangers for their own gain as just one example. And now they are just trying to survive, carrying out their father's orders and probably frightened what he would do to them if they disobeyed.

Again, just like the coffin escape, I was eagerly reading with bated breath wondering how Jean Valjean was going to escape his current predicament! I was really surprised when he pressed the hot iron onto his arm without a scream of pain or the slightest flinch - it definitely seemed superhuman.

Linda wrote: " I think his struggle was close to M. Madelaine's struggle, but not quite the same. Either decision M. Madelaine could have made would've guaranteed that someone was going to be hurt - the man on trial, or Fantine and the other townspeople whose lives were bettered by M. Madelaine. "

I agree - I also thought about the same scene you mentioned in your post. On the other hand, M. Madelaine struggle was much more emotionally disturbing and somehow relatable because either of his options would have negative repercussions.

Linda wrote: "I am quite surprised by the number of "coincidences" in terms of the various people meeting the same people over and over again. To me, that is not reality. However, I think it perhaps represents the struggle which might be felt by people who are constantly working and struggling to pull themselves out of poverty or the trapped situations they find themselves in. That for all they do to try and escape, there are always some of the same conditions and circumstances which hold them down."

All these coincidences are definitely beyond reality, but I think as I mentioned in questions, the novel does remind me of a Greek tragedy where Fate rules the world, and all our characters are doomed to meet each other again, but we both mentioned, Hugo has a sense of plotting and direction in his novel, and he does not just discard a character to miraculously 'resurrect' his or her to be a certain Deux ex machina who saves the world!

Besides, I actually enjoyed this moment of culminations where all our main characters are together again at the same time. I thought it was unrealistic but masterfully constructed.

P.S. This is a break week, and I will open a new thread in a week. I hope those who read will be able to catch up and post soon.

As for me, I am really enjoying this massive door-stopper :-)

Zulfiya wrote: "P.S. This is a break week, and I will open a new thread in a week. I hope those who read will be able to catch up and post soon.

As for me, I am really enjoying this massive door-stopper :-)"

Break Week?! No!!! :D I didn't realize it, and I just finished reading the next section last night...

This is definitely a great read, I'm glad I decided to give it a shot with you guys!

Well, now you will have more time for other reads :-)

And I've finished another section!

Yes, I agree, the first of the two sections in this group was quite underwhelming. And while those characters did reappear as the men who came to help the Thenardier's capture Valjean, I don't think it really mattered -who- they were, just that they were underworldly types. But perhaps they will appear again later, as the characters seem to do in this book.

As for all the coincidences and the same characters appearing over and over, it reminds me a bit of Dickens in that regard, especially Great Expectations. Interestingly, the coincidences annoyed me in that book, but in this one I am ok with it. I'm not sure what the difference is for me -- perhaps it's because I'm quite a bit older now than when I read the other.

I agree with Linda that it seems like Marius' indecision went on for far too long. He could obviously tell that Thenardier was a horrible human being. But I suppose, what did he possibly know about M. LeBlanc except that Marius is attracted to the man's daughter? And he feels he KNOWS from his father that Thenardier at least used to be a good person (hah!), and Thenardier claims during this scene that M. LeBlanc ruined him (which ...).

As for the two girls, yes, I feel very bad for them! And seeing what Eponine did for Marius with the "Police" paper when he thought she was just admiring herself in the mirror, I think I really like her and I hope she is not caught by the police. I wonder if she is secretly in love with her neighbor -- some of her actions lead me to believe so, and she will be very upset if he ends up with Cosette.....

Deana wrote: "As for all the coincidences and the same characters appearing over and over, it reminds me a bit of Dickens in that regard, especially Great Expectations. Interestingly, the coincidences annoyed me in that book, but in this one I am ok with it."

That's funny you mention this. I recently read George Eliot's Daniel Deronda and although I like the book overall, there was one coincidence that occurred which really annoyed me. I kept thinking how that was so unlikely to really happen! But when I compared that one coincidence to all which occur in Les Mis, I am somehow not annoyed by the ones in Les Mis, and I don't really understand why there is a difference for me.

Exactly, Linda. I wonder what it is about books to make us have these strong opinions sometimes and not others. Is it something about how the book is written? Something about current events in my own life? I do wonder if I read Great Expectations again now that I am well into adulthood if my opinions would be any different.

Great Expectation is a great novel. When I first read it, I thought it was one of the weakest novels by Dickens, but my second read actually changed my opinion dramatically: sexualy charged, mysterious, very dark, and very morally ambiguous. And no Dickens tricks of characters out of nowhere, plot inconsistencies, saccharine ladies, etc. Maybe, because the novel is relatively small for Dickens, it is actually one of his best, and now I have to shut up and save my opinion for another group and another Dicken project.

Zulfiya wrote: "Great Expectation is a great novel. When I first read it, I thought it was one of the weakest novels by Dickens, but my second read actually changed my opinion dramatically: sexualy charged, myster..."

I have not read Great Expectations, or any Dickens novels besides A Christmas Carol, but I just picked up a copy of it this weekend. I would like to try and read through some of Dickens works.

I also didn't think the underworld characters needed quite so much description, but maybe like the other characters in this book, they will appear later. I really enjoyed the second section with all the action. I feel that Marius did spend too much time in indecision, but every time he felt that M. Leblanc was in real danger of being killed, he was ready to shoot.
Yay! A break, that means I'm not quite as far behind!!

I don't really have anything new to add. I finally got a chance to read book VIII (loved it!), and I find myself in agreement with others. I felt bad for the daughters, who might have turned out better under other circumstances. As the section progressed, I found myself reading faster and faster because I was eager to find out how Valjean would manage to escape (or not).

Anne - The escape scene was marvelous. Sometimes, I wish Hugo had been our contemporary - he would be ideal for all those edgy/ suspenseful movies. This is not the first time when he keeps us on the edge of our reading seats.

Lyndi - I think Hugo was really REALLY enjoying the 'space' he was given that he decided to use it to the fullest, so even the fringe characters get a wonderful authorial reception.