Jane Austen discussion

random question

I think so because at that time the real gentlemen didn't have sex with a girl unless maybe he'll marry her

I don't think so. Men always had prior to marriage sexual experience because it was considered a part of education in life. Since women had to come to marriage untouched, someone had to know what he/she was doing. :D

If a man really knew what he was doing, maybe not so bad :D

The men most certainly knew a great deal more about sex, back then, than the women, especially the women of the upper classes. However, Mr. Darcy?? I mean, he has really, incredibly high standards just about the company he keeps, can you actually imagine him sleeping with a woman he wasn't truly in love with? I'm not so sure he would. Just look at how truly shy he is with anyone outside his small circle of family and close friends.

...he withdrew his own and coldly said: "She is tolerable, but not handsome enough to tempt me..."

Excerpt From: Austen, Jane. “Pride and Prejudice.

He was definitely a prick, though!

I am inclined to agree with Rachel here. He had such high morals and the way he treated his servants and things... I can't see it. Or Mugabe I just don't want to imagine it... (This is a thought provoking topic!)

This discussion is delicious! :D

Polina(Polinushka) wrote: "...he withdrew his own and coldly said: "She is tolerable, but not handsome enough to tempt me..."

Excerpt From: Austen, Jane. “Pride and Prejudice.

He was definitely a prick, though!"

No, I wouldn't call that being a prick (who of us hasn't thought something similar?)

I do think he was too vocal, in an thoroughly bad mood, and I don't think he wanted to be out at a party. (This was just after sending Wickham packing from Georgiana's intended elopement.)

I've often wondered what would have happened in P&P if Mr. Darcy hadn't attended those Meryton Assemblies.

I agree Elizabeth - it was a bad time for him after Georgiana and everything and he just didn't want to dance. I don't think he really looked at Lizzy at all, she just happened to be the brunt of his comment, but I believe he would have said that about whatever the woman Bingley had suggested.

oh what a thread I do not think he was a virgin but I would not put money on it lol! A friend of mine watched a documentary about sex being a taboo subject in the past and it talked about couples who for years thought they had consummated their marriage but hadn't due to never being educated on such matters wow

This brings me to another question: did Mr. Wickham and Lydia have sex during their elopement- before they got married?

Of course they did!

That's why Elizabeth said it would be scandalous for Lydia to be married from home, because everyone knew she'd lived with Wickham before the ceremony.

Tamara wrote: "oh what a thread I do not think he was a virgin but I would not put money on it lol! A friend of mine watched a documentary about sex being a taboo subject in the past and it talked about couples w..."

What documentary was this?

"couples who for years thought they had consummated their marriage but hadn't"

... am I the only one who finds this a little unbelievable?

Soph wrote: "I agree Elizabeth - it was a bad time for him after Georgiana and everything and he just didn't want to dance. I don't think he really looked at Lizzy at all, she just happened to be the brunt of h..."

Yes, Soph, that makes a lot of sense!

Re Wickham and Lydia - definitely!

Someone at last dared to ask THE question :D

I think pre-marital sex was pretty much a taboo in this era, however that didn't stop men and women from the experience.
However, a man with Mr.Darcy's high morals would find himself in one of the following situations:

1- Have sex with a respectable woman from his class.
(He would OF COURSE marry her)
2- Have sex with a woman belonging to his class but in no way respectable. (I don't think he would tarnish his reputation)
3- Go to a brothel. (Mr.Darcy would NEVER go to a brothel)

So my conclusion is: He actually was a virgin. :D

I am with you Chaharzad!

And if he did go to brothel, he would never make it known. Darcy is a mystery to us all before he met Eliza, so who knows. I can't say he was a virgin.

He may be a mystery (which I love about him) but I still think his morals are too high.

I never realized that the Meryton came the same summer of Georgiana and Wickham Failed elopement... that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for bringing that up!
About Lydia ad Wickham... I have to say that it isn't certain. It was enough for the couple to create a doubt of whether they had or hadn't intercourse for the elopement to be definitive. I know that for certain because an aunt of my grandma got married that way. She was in love with a man his brother didn't approve (something about his social birth), so the eloped. Apparently they didn't have the technical time to do much, before they where found, but when they found them she was in her night gown and was brushing her hair in a bedroom, so the brother didn't have a choice but the let them marry each other. I alway found this a very cool family story!
But getting back to the main subject. I have no idea if he was a virgin. I always knew that men at that time had a better sexual knowledge and it was a use to get even (and especially) very well borne men to have a 'paid' experience, usually with a prostitute at the very first experience (or pretending to be so), before they where married. That was made to avoid any discomfort on the first night of marriage. Even so it is very difficult to immagine him with one of those girls... (lucky her!!!)
If he did I don't think he would have needed to be in love with her, or even to be 'tempted', because it was considered as a part of the gentleman education, so it was probably something more like practicing than making love.
Still... very interesting thread! This is one of the times when someone would wish their favorite writer wasn't so long gone, se we could get a Q&A.
Can you immagine how cool that would be? Being able to ask Jane all the question we want???

OK Bridget Jones Edge of ReasonBridget Jones...

The answer to your question is... probably not.
According to medical knowledge of the day, men had "needs" and unless they had an outlet for those "needs" there would be dire health consequences. Women had to be pure because her husband had to know the heir was is.

This site has a good explanation about the hows and whys of female delicacy and propriety
http://www.susannaives.com/nancyregen...

I think Darcy might have enjoyed a comfortable liason with a willing widow or visited a select establishment in Mayfair. It wouldn't have been considered scandalous at all unless he, like Wickhan, seduced in innocent or had an indiscreet affair with a well known lady of Society (like the Duchess of Devonshire did). Benjamin Franklin had an illegitimate son and most people think Thomas Jefferson had a long term relationship with his slave, Sally Hemings. If Sally Hemings had been white and not a slave, no one would have batted an eyelash.

Wickham and Lydia definitely "knew" each other before marriage and possibly before her elopement. Lizzy didn't want Lydia to go to Brighton because with Lydia's personality, she could easily find herself in trouble and end up a camp follower. A man like Wickham wouldn't have put up with Lydia without getting something in return, at least at first, and she thought he was in love with her.

I think he would consider such behaviour as something Wickham would do and so I just don't think he would.

Elizabeth wrote: "Tamara wrote: "oh what a thread I do not think he was a virgin but I would not put money on it lol! A friend of mine watched a documentary about sex being a taboo subject in the past and it talked ..."

Lol I too was a little in disbelief I will ask her for the particulars when next we speak!

I'm afraid I don't really like the idea of Mr.Darcy practicing, somehow it doesn't sound better than lovemaking. Maybe the notion of Darcy's virginity is a fantasy I want to embrace, but I seriously would think less of him if he actually did that :(

I am with you. I associate that type of behaviour with Wickham not Darcy!

Chahrazad wrote: "I'm afraid I don't really like the idea of Mr.Darcy practicing, somehow it doesn't sound better than lovemaking. Maybe the notion of Darcy's virginity is a fantasy I want to embrace, but I seriousl..."

In my heart I embrace that too... ;)
But still... I wouldn't think less of him if he did. After all he was a son of his time, and that would be only one of the things I would have had to put up with if I were Lizzie.

Soph wrote: "I am with you. I associate that type of behaviour with Wickham not Darcy!"

Indeed Soph, I see Darcy and Wickham as complete opposites, I don't want to think that they have that in common. Can we be mistaken Soph?

I hope we are not! I don't like to think of them having that in common either!

Chahrazad wrote: "Someone at last dared to ask THE question :D

I think pre-marital sex was pretty much a taboo in this era, however that didn't stop men and women from the experience.
However, a man with Mr.Darcy'..."

Yes! Yes! Yes! I agree 100%! Darcy has such a heightened sense of morality, of right and wrong that I can't see him sleeping with any woman except the one he is married to, and only after they were married.

Besides, I still stand by my assertion that Darcy is a very shy man. I see that some of you think of him as "bad" or "mysterious" but I disagree. I think he's so very private, and so very proper and these are what were misunderstood by many of the characters as being aloof and vain.

Soph wrote: "I hope we are not! I don't like to think of them having that in common either!"

They don't have anything in common!

I think Mr Darcy had probably done it before, it was part of a young man's education, and it wouldn't surprise me if he was introduced to a high class establishment by his father or uncle rather than take the risk of him getting caught by somebody who he'd have to marry. I also reckon that Wickham and Lydia would have had sex because why else would he take her with him when he cared so little for her? I tell you who I think probably WAS a virgin when he married though, and that is Mr Collins :)

Rachel wrote: "Chahrazad wrote: "Someone at last dared to ask THE question :D

I think pre-marital sex was pretty much a taboo in this era, however that didn't stop men and women from the experience.
However, a ..."

I totally agree Rachel. he's indeed private and reserved. I remember the scene when Lizzie knew about his part in finding Lydia and Wickham. She said: "I know the trouble it must have cost you" I totally think it was an ordeal for Darcy to go to such places.

It’s possible that Darcy was innocent but I’d say it’s not likely. He had principles, unlike Wickham who was ready to seduce anyone he could get away with, but there were perfectly respectable options open to Darcy. It was part of a man’s life to hire a woman, or set up a mistress, or even have an affair with a married woman so long as they were discrete. He would have had friends at university to introduce him in the right areas… although it’s conceivable that his disgust of Wickham’s behaviour could have made him avoid going down that route.

Most women were supposedly told nothing of what would happen on their wedding night, except in the vaguest terms… though no doubt they talked and read novels they shouldn’t have. Affairs were quite common on both sides once an heir had been produced, they were understood in some relationships.

The idea of Darcy not being a virgin doesn’t bother me (in terms of a business transaction or an older married woman etc,) but the one thing I will not believe is his free use of the housemaids… that sort of thing went on, but I can’t see Darcy condoning it. I mention it because I know there have been mention in fanfic books and it rankled.

I agree Rachel and Chahrazad! He is personal and shy and would only sleep with his wife, the woman he loves.

(And no they have nothing in common at all Rachel!)

Oh and also, I don't think of him as "bad" or "mysterious" - he is a mystery; shy, only open to his close friends and family etc as we don't learn much about who he really is for a long time. I think there is a difference between being a mystery and being mysterious. Mysterious suggests something shady. A mystery is we just don't know much about who he really is.

I agree with some of what you say Louise, regarding the use of housemaids. Although I still think he would not engage in such an activity with any woman until marriage, certainly not with housemaids etc because he has to high a respect, as it were, and treats those who work for him very well, hence why they respect him so much.

I agree with the housemaids thing too, whether they were actively willing or not it would be difficult to turn down the master of the house, I think he was a better man than that. Re. whether he'd have waited until marriage or not, the good thing is that there is no way of knowing for sure, because even though it would have been socially acceptable for him to have had a mistress or visited a brothel, he may have chosen not to, so either view is equally valid and we can believe what we prefer!

Oh and Lydia and Wickham... definitely. They were in London for weeks, he'd have turned her out long before if she hadn't been co-operating.

I agree with Ceri about Mr Collins though :p

Good point Ceri - we can believe what we want!

It's funny. I didn't realize how highly I prize my idea of Darcy, but this discussion has certainly brought that to light for me.

I, too, will continue to hold on to what I believe of his character.

Yes Rachel it's the same for me actually!

I join you girls :)

I think that this discussion brought forth how highly we think of Darcy, or how generations of readers have come to idealize/ideolize him. I don't think we can ever prove he was one way or the other and that's what makes Austen a genius :)

Jane Austen: Giving women unrealistic expectations since 1811.

you're very right Polina....... very true!

you're very right Polina....... very true!

On a more broad spectrum, we know characters in Austen's novels were not innocent (Wickham, Willoughby, Captain Tilney, Crawford and then most likely Elliot, Thorpe etc) and so the heroes of the story for me would be a contrast. I mean, Brandon and Wentworth for example were both still in love with their first loves, (and these first loves happened when they were young), Eliza and Anne, so I don't see it. Ferrars, Tilney and Bertram were all linked to the church so again it doesn't fit for me. And Knightley and Bingley were just good people and again it doesn't fit with me with their characters.

I think Miss Austen valued innocence and virtue. As in some novels of the time, she never had a fallen woman as her heroine.

Soph wrote: "On a more broad spectrum, we know characters in Austen's novels were not innocent (Wickham, Willoughby, Captain Tilney, Crawford and then most likely Elliot, Thorpe etc) and so the heroes of the st..."

that's a way of seeing it Soph... well said!

Thank you ^_^