SA reads discussion

Welcome to week 3- Part 5

I am surprised by how much this book is keeping my interest. I am not into politics, but so far I found part 5 to be the most interesting section of Mandela's story! Mandela's account of being arrested for high treason was quite incredible, and I had to laugh at how this opportunity allowed the various members to exchange ideas openly: “Now, our enemy had gathered us all together under one roof for what became the largest and longest unbanned meeting of the Congress Alliance in years.”

I was also struck by the camaraderie of the arrested men: “Suddenly there were no Xhosas or Zulus, no Indians or Africans, no rightists or leftists, no religious or political leaders; we were all nationalists and patriots bound together by a love of our common history, our culture, our country, and our people. In that moment, something stirred deep inside all of us, something strong and intimate, that bound us to one another. In that moment we felt the hand of the great past that made us what we were and the power of the great cause that linked us all together.” Suffering for a common cause seem to bring people together more than would a general meeting or protest.

Sarah wrote: "I am surprised by how much this book is keeping my interest. I am not into politics, but so far I found part 5 to be the most interesting section of Mandela's story! Mandela's account of being arre..."

Yes, Sarah.
Why is it that suffering brings out the 'best' in people? Surely success should be a more effective tool for progress if evolution is to be held as our model for future growth?

Here is the first blog post for Week 3:
'WINNIE THE WITCH'
http://www.johnmountford.com/blog/

What I'm enjoying most is NM's way of speaking, he sounds like a grandfather sitting tell a story to the family. Everything is well explained. He sees the bad with the good, and even some humor.

I too was impressed with Winnie when I saw the movie and now reading this. I have a vague recollection of her aggressive activism in the 80s; but here I'm seeing how she got there.
Like you say John, she was tender-hearted, to be qualified as a social worker back then she would need to be very smart and hardworking. She becomes courageous. Yet, I imagine the devastation of having a husband imprisoned for life, the fear and hatred shown toward her by those in power led to a great change in the tender-hearted social worker.
I'm planning on reading her biography after LWTF.

Lisa wrote: "I too was impressed with Winnie when I saw the movie and now reading this. I have a vague recollection of her aggressive activism in the 80s; but here I'm seeing how she got there.
Like you say Joh..."

Me too (Winnie's biography). One heckuva woman. Funny that NM picks a Jehovah's Witness (Evelyn)and a social worker for his wives. He was into serious-minded women (as wives, that is).

It is interesting that NM had a 'house assistant' - a maid. By his own admission she had to 'struggle for her rights' in his house, so much so that he was surprised when she heeded the ANC's call for workers to strike. To his credit though, he did not resist her striking, and saw the humour in his position.

John wrote: "It is interesting that NM had a 'house assistant' - a maid. By his own admission she had to 'struggle for her rights' in his house, so much so that he was surprised when she heeded the ANC's call f..."

The irony makes me think of the famous passage Thomas Jefferson wrote in The Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" And yet, he owned slaves.

Buck wrote: "John wrote: "It is interesting that NM had a 'house assistant' - a maid. By his own admission she had to 'struggle for her rights' in his house, so much so that he was surprised when she heeded the..."

Buck,
Jefferson obviously did not regard blacks as 'men', but rather as some sort of closely related species. Many Afrikaner's at the time of the inception of apartheid had a similar view: they did not see a black person as being at the same level of humanity as a white. I remember having a discussion on this topic once with a particularly radical Afrikaans man. His reasoning was thus: because the black man did not have a crown in his hair, he was not of the same creation as all other human beings, who do indeed have a crown on the top of their head. Hard to reason with such a person. I still laugh when I recall the incident.

Don,
You are exactly right. The government of the day would not have walked the path of a negotiated settlement if they were not convinced of Mandela's bona fides. His proven integrity on the matter of non-racialism was the key. They expected of him a far higher standard in this regard than they had themselves practiced for the past fourty years.
That continues today: whites expect greater forgiveness, greater patience, greater integrity, greater understanding from the ANC government and the general black population than they themselves were able to show when they were in control. Mandela and his contemporaries were able to meet that higher standard, but those who have followed them have not. The ANC fought the revolution on the platform of non-racialism and integrity - now they are being expected to stick to that high standard.
Is that fair?

Beautiful! Thank you for that wonderful piece of information, Don. Reading Jefferson's writing is like savouring a fine wine. I shall be using that phrase, "a wolf by the ear" as soon as the opportunity presents. In fact, I think I shall create an opportunity - Twitter beckons.

Racism can be so insidious and pervasive. When flying back from Ethiopia, it was the first time Mandela had seen a black pilot. He rebuked himself for his automatic reaction that a black man could not possibly be a competent pilot; it was a white man's job.

It brought to mind Boxer in Kill Mandela. I wondered, John, if you knew about Mandela and the black pilot, or if this was a coincidence.

Buck wrote: "Racism can be so insidious and pervasive. When flying back from Ethiopia, it was the first time Mandela had seen a black pilot. He rebuked himself for his automatic reaction that a black man coul..."

I had read ALWTF before writing Kill Mandela, but did not consciously remember that anecdote; neither did I note its significance in this current reading. It is a nice point that I am sure to use in future book discussions on KM. Thanks, Buck.

Don wrote: "John wrote: "Don,
You are exactly right. The government of the day would not have walked the path of a negotiated settlement if they were not convinced of Mandela's bona fides. His proven integrity..."

True, Don. However as one journalist put it recently:
"The ANC has lost its capacity to be embarrassed."
A free press and an independent judiciary are limited in their effectiveness when the government of the day is not held to account by the majority.

Vicki wrote: "John wrote: "Don wrote: "John wrote: "Don,
You are exactly right. The government of the day would not have walked the path of a negotiated settlement if they were not convinced of Mandela's bona fi..."

Nice to know you're keeping an eye on me, Vicki.

Don wrote: "John wrote: "Don wrote: "John wrote: "Don,
You are exactly right. The government of the day would not have walked the path of a negotiated settlement if they were not convinced of Mandela's bona fi..."

Yes, but with a reduced majority - at most 5% down is my opinion.

Don wrote: "John wrote: "Many Afrikaner's at the time of the inception of apartheid had a similar view: they did not see a black person as being at the same level of humanity as a white. I remember having a di..."

There were Afrikaners who had a lot to say against Apartheid: Die Sestigers (Brink, breytenbach, Jonker); Beyers Naude. And not so leaker English people.
Hatred is learnt. If you raise your child to hate and fear, you perpetuate the cycle.
Don, when I've travelled I've been the recipient of some interesting questions. Mostly involve SA politics and our wildlife (In Ireland, lots about the weather).
Had a very odd conversation with a guy from America while waiting for a bus in France. He suggested that all white South Africans go back to where they came from. But I come from here, part of dad's family tree reaches to the time of the Huguenots. Which isn't as long as the original tribes, but is a couple hundred years.
I think being South African is very highly politicized.

Lisa wrote: "What I'm enjoying most is NM's way of speaking, he sounds like a grandfather sitting tell a story to the family. Everything is well explained. He sees the bad with the good, and even some humor."

That's what I loved about the tone of the book too, Lisa.

Buck wrote: "Racism can be so insidious and pervasive. When flying back from Ethiopia, it was the first time Mandela had seen a black pilot. He rebuked himself for his automatic reaction that a black man coul..."

Yes, sad but very true. It's hard not to have a colonized mentality in such cases.

NM's attitude towards the PAC was yet another indication of the statesman in the making.
Although the PAC had split from the ANC, and were doing all they could to discredit and disrupt the ANC's efforts in calling for strikes, Mandela did not respond with aggression. Instead he called for a meeting with Sobukwe, to seek for areas of 'essential commonality'.
He always looked for a way to agree, not disagree, and he did not allow disagreements to turn others into an enemy. This may sound like an obvious thing to do, but it is not easy as ego almost always gets in the way in situations like this. Mandela was a pragmatist with integrity and without ego - a rare creature indeed!

Don wrote: "John wrote: "Don,
You are exactly right. The government of the day would not have walked the path of a negotiated settlement if they were not convinced of Mandela's bona fides. His proven integrity..."

The Economist to my mind remains the gold standard of reporting, but it can be a bit sporadic if you want to follow a place like SA in more detail. You can try http://www.dailymaverick.co.za for South African coverage. They do detail articles rather than general news. You mention in one of your comments above that you saw the Bang Bang club exhibition, Greg Marinovich is one of the editors for this site and is doing a sterling job on the Marikana commission for them.

Thanks for the link Carolien. It's a very interesting website, I surprised I haven't heard of it before.

The main thing that sticks out for me in this part of the book is how the political struggle of ideals has become for the main leaders a personal struggle. The day to day family life and economic struggle must have been very hard, especially for the children.

Indeneri wrote: "Thanks for the link Carolien. It's a very interesting website, I surprised I haven't heard of it before.

The main thing that sticks out for me in this part of the book is how the political strugg..."

Yes, quite so. This is a theme Mandela returns to repeatedly in ALWTF. Mandela the public man and Mandela the private man are at odds with one another constantly. This is the humanity that allowed him to be both freedom fighter and reconciler at the same time. He was a unique man.

One of the best books that describe the effect of the struggle on the children of activists is Every Secret Thing: My Family, My Country which is Gillian Slovo's description of growing up with the secrecy and hard choices that had to be made by families.

Carolien wrote: "One of the best books that describe the effect of the struggle on the children of activists is Every Secret Thing: My Family, My Country which is Gillian Slovo's descri..."

Thanks, Carolien. You certainly are well read on this subject - I might need to take advantage as I do research for volume two of Kill Mandela.

Thanks John. I just read quite a lot and I must say I love having people around to discuss the content. I have a colleague at work and we normally share the books.

Mandela didn't sound particularly pleased to have the PAC around. The PAC in its early days had some serious minds.

Carolien wrote: "Thanks John. I just read quite a lot and I must say I love having people around to discuss the content. I have a colleague at work and we normally share the books.

Mandela didn't sound particula..."

True. Robert Sobukwe was held in high esteem by Mandela. The parallels with the EFF of today are striking - do you think they will go the same way as the PAC?

Lisa wrote: "Don wrote: "John wrote: "Many Afrikaner's at the time of the inception of apartheid had a similar view: they did not see a black person as being at the same level of humanity as a white. I remember..."

Reading all of your comments as I'm at this part of the book now, and I had to laugh at the American who suggested that all South Africans should go back where they came from. Unless he was a Native American, I presume he is willing to go back where he came from? And I personally wouldn't have the foggiest idea of where to go back to!

Karlyne wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Don wrote: "John wrote: "Many Afrikaner's at the time of the inception of apartheid had a similar view: they did not see a black person as being at the same level of humanity as a whi..."

If we all went back to where we came from Africa would be a very crowded continent, I expect.

John wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Don wrote: "John wrote: "Many Afrikaner's at the time of the inception of apartheid had a similar view: they did not see a black person as being at the same level of h..."

And so would Great Britain, Germany, Ireland, Scandinavia... Oh, wait! I get it, John! (haha!)

Indeneri wrote: "Thanks for the link Carolien. It's a very interesting website, I surprised I haven't heard of it before.

The main thing that sticks out for me in this part of the book is how the political strugg..."

Children always get the shortest end of the stick.

Karlyne wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Don wrote: "John wrote: "Many Afrikaner's at the time of the inception of apartheid had a similar view: they did not see a black person as being at the same level of humanity as a whi..."

Um no, not Native American (at least I assume so from his appearance). I was removed from that conversation by Russell.

Yes, they do get the short end, Lisa, even when their parents are fighting and struggling for the freedom of their children. And although childhood is short, what we go through as children stays with us forever. Sobering thought, isn't it?

Is Russell your husband who didn't want to see you assault a stranger? (chuckle - my husband always runs when he sees my face start to get pink and my eyeballs to get squinty and my mouth snap open)