The History Book Club discussion

On pages 99-100, MacQuarrie points that gold and silver had direct monetary value to the Spanish, but not the Inca, who had not developed a monetary system. He says that gold and silver were instead considered sacred materials, used to honor the Sun god, the Moon goddess, and the Inca emperor, who was considered divine.

Macquarrie suggests that Atahualpa was much more willing to try to bribe the Spanish with gold and silver because, for him, these metals did not represent the wealth of his empire.

This makes sense, but I am surprised that the Incas were not more worried about angering the gods by giving the Spanish these sacred materials.

Good point, Kathy. And, as far as Atahualpa himself was concerned he was bargaining for his life so he probably didn't worry about the religious aspects of the tradeoff.

The Incas apparently had a very well developed economy and a capable administrative system that could collect and store all those tributes. They excelled at building roads, as well as developing a very efficient messenger system to communicate with their far flung empire. (Finally, some very positive information on the Incas, Steve!).

Their empires was advanced in many ways. I am surprised that the Inca hadn't developed money. I wonder if this was true of other ancient empires.

Ann,

Thanks . Would actually be interesting to read a history of money. Wonder if anyone has written on it….Also, wondering if the Incas had discovered/invented the wheel. Seems like I heard the Egyptians did not unless that is a misconception on my part.

Steve

Kathy,
Thank you for the beautiful picture of an Inca gold panel. MacQuarrie mentions them, but I was having trouble picturing them.

Stevelee,
According to my reading, the Inca did not have the wheel. They relied on human serf labor for their building and roads. There were no draft animals in the New Worlds and the Americas did not have regular communication between different cultures that the Old World developed. These factors encouraged sharing information and the development of wheels for work in the Old World.

A history of money would be interesting to read. Here is a brief Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_...

The maintenance of the huge tribute and barter system in the Inca lands must have required a very large bureaucracy.

I highlighted a quote I thought was pretty good from this chapter. "Conquest had little to do with adventure, but rather had everything to do with groups of men willing to do just about anything in order to avoid working for a living." It was early in the chapter, page 1489 on my kindle. Pretty insightful..(smile).

Ann: "This makes sense, but I am surprised that the Incas were not more worried about angering the gods by giving the Spanish these sacred materials."

Kathy: "In a way I guess it was a catch-22. Atahualpa was also considered divine, so the Incas didn't want to anger him either."

Perhaps these gods were not as involved with the Incas as say...those of Olympus. The Incas may not have seen them as gods moving pawns around at their whim. So it may be that in their understanding of their gods there was nothing to fear if these objects were removed. Perhaps the emperor was equal to (or greater than) the other gods in Inca belief. Will we see a deeper discussion of Inca religion in future chapters or is this something for a future read?

On page 117 we read a quote that has me wondering if the author took a little license to spruce up the story: "Atahualpa must have also realized that all of the sacred gold and all of the sacred silver objects he had been so diligently collecting probably weren't going to amount to much more than a silver vase full of llama piss, for all the good they were going to do him."

If we keep with the idea that MacQuarrie is writing this book along the lines of a movie script this would equal the comic relief in the story. I found it humorous.

Michael,
Interesting point about religion. Those Greek gods were definitely a vindictive bunch and the Greeks spent a lot of time propitiating them.

In any case, Atahualpa seemed to have priority over the more distant gods. This was a very hierarchical society, and people did what they were told to do by their leaders.

I am really enjoying this book so far. I finds the Inca concept of gold and silver as sacred metals as opposed to money a paradigm shift in thinking. This is what I love about this book. I am now fascinated to learn more about Inca religion and what they thought about their gods and more about Inca mythology. I think it is fascinating how the Inca and Spanish cultures misunderstood key motives about each other, viewing each other through their own culture filters and made wrong assumptions of each other, but got some other things right about each other. Great read so far!

I was very interested in the description of the relationship between the Spaniards and the emperor that is described on pages 105-106. They taught him to become a skillful chess player andwere impressed with his intelligence.

One of the notaries wrote, "The Spaniards who listened to him were astounded to find so much wisdom in a barbarian." (p.106)

They allowed Atahualpa to continue to enjoy his luxurious lifestyle and to rule his empire. This seems to have lulled him into a false sense of security.

Also, I thought it was fascinating that they saved all the garbage he touched (rushes, corncobs, etc) so that they could burn it later. This also was "holy."

I wonder if he learned Spanish.

Kathy,
Hope you had fun at the graduation.

I can't help but find it strange that nobody tried to stop the 3 Spaniards, especially since Cuzco had been the seat of the opposition to Atahualpa. This must have been a very hierarchical and regimented society. They knew how to follow orders!


Of course we have the huge advantage of hindsight.

I really enjoyed the quote by the native chronicler, Felipe Huaman Poma de Ayala, when he was describing the Inca impression of the three conquistadors who went to Cuzco, “To our Indian eyes, the Spaniards looked as if they were shrouded like corpses. Their faces were covered with wool [beards], leaving only the eyes visible, and the caps that they wore resembled little red pots on top of their heads.” (pg. 114) This calls to mind how Barbara Tuchman described knights in her history, A Distant Mirror, The Calamitous 14th Century, “…terrible worms in their iron cocoons...”

Steve


Barbara W. TuchmanA Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century

" They said there was so much gold in all of the buildings of the the city that it was a marvelous thing...[and that] they would have brought much more of it if this would not have detained them longer, because they were alone and over 250 leagues from the other CHRISTIANS (emphasis is mine)." (Kindle location 1902)

Interesting that the Spaniards differentiated themselves from the Indians by denoting their religion as a distinction here, rather than by ethnicity (such as Spaniard vs. Indian/Incan). Was it ego? Was this a way to set themselves apart, to elevate themselves to a more civilized status? After all, the empire was far more sophisticated and beyond what they likely presumed "barbarians" could accomplish. Ethnicity was not going to cut it as a prime distinctive characterization here. The indigenous people they witnessed were evidently intelligent and productive, whereas the Spaniards Pizarro sent to Cuzco were poor and illiterate. I have to think that from their perspective, after experiencing first-hand the vastness of the Incan wealth (and I refer to wealth here from the Spanish perspective on value), the Spaniards' identification as Christian was a form of psychological empowerment. And to go on further with this psychological empowerment view, the very nature of plunder is based on force. Stealing goods by force. It is a form of rape. The raping of the people and land's resources, not only as a means to higher status and wealth, but also as a means to exert power and control.

s. marie wrote: "" They said there was so much gold in all of the buildings of the the city that it was a marvelous thing...[and that] they would have brought much more of it if this would not have detained them lo..."

Excellent points s. marie. I too noticed the differentiation in labels. I find the reference to the natives as barbarians interesting in light of the descriptions we have of Inca cities. Paved streets, gold used not just for decoration but to reflect the sun (perhaps for more than just decorative purposes), canals that carry water. Gutters to carry sewage away. Things that Europeans were still in the process of implementing. Perhaps it was necessary to overstate some things in order to ignore or not have to recognize, ways that these "barbarians" may have been more advanced then the Spanish.

Michael wrote: "s. marie wrote: "" They said there was so much gold in all of the buildings of the the city that it was a marvelous thing...[and that] they would have brought much more of it if this would not have..."

Well said, and thank you.

Kathy wrote: "S. Marie & Michael. It seems that both cultures thought the other Barbarians. In there own ways each was more advanced than the other. Unfortunately for the Incas, the might of the Spanish weapons ..."

I like that you pointed out that the barbarian viewpoint was a mutually shared perspective between both cultures. The irony. I also chewed on that while reading this week's chapter.

Sorry to finish reading so late, but last week was just nuts.

I enjoyed everyone's comments about how each culture saw the other as barbarians. I agree that this led each side to feel superior and completely underestimate the other. If Atahualpa had not underestimated the Spaniards, and assumed that if he paid them off, they'd leave, he certainly had enough men under his command to get rid of them. I think that Pizarro would have kept him alive if under siege, even if the emperor was just a bargaining chip. If Pizarro is really thinking about executing the emperor, you'd think he'd be just a little concerned about the backlash.

I'm really learning a lot about perception in this book. I like the way the author calls out the differences in the cultures and highlights where each side is completely blind about the other.