The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of December 21st - December 27th, we are reading BOOK TWO 1947 - Section One - Pandora's Box - Chapter Five (pg. 573 - 596) - Chapter Six (pg 596-617) - Coda (pg. 617 - 623 ~ A Division of the Spoils -Book IV, (pg. 573 - 623)

The week's reading assignment is:

Week Seventeen- December 21st ~ PART TWO: Section One - Pandora's Box - Coda (pg. 573 - 623. )

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on August 31st.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on December 21st.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Jill will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Bentley.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Paul Scott

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how to cite books:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...


Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Paul Scott

Chapter Summary and Overview

The violence has started in Mirat as the population has learned that the Nawab has acceded . Perron has dinner with the Count who explains how Mirat will be absorbed into independent India and surprisingly admits that Ahmed, son of old Kasim, may have political talents under his seemingly playboy image but the time has passed. Outside the compound the Hindus and Muslims are setting fire to the bazaar and the Count says he misses Merrick who might have kept things under control.

Perron and the Count discuss Merrick's murder and the involvement of the young man Aziz....an unsavory situation.

The British residents in Mirat leave (escape could be a better term) by public railway rather than the Nawab's private train in order to avoid any violence. Their immunity from that violence is fading. as the train is stopped and Ahmed tells everyone to lock the door and windows of the train compartment. The crowd is demanding Ahmed Kasim to leave the train which he does and goes to his death. The mob slaughters the Muslims on the train but the British are left unharmed. The train finally leaves with the British aboard and they catch a plane for Delhi. The Raj has ended.

In this last week, some of the unanswered questions appear to be clarified or at least partially. In an earlier chapter, the train incident and the death of an man by a mob was mentioned but not in specifics. We now know it was Ahmed Kasim...but was he murdered for his religion, his position with the Nawab, or because he was the son of a political figure?

I know that it would have been impossible for the Nawab to stand alone against the British and retain his autonomy in Mirat..........but it would have been such a much more peaceful solution. He had always treated Muslims and Hindus with equanimity and now violence is breaking out and the British couldn't care less. It is a rather pitiful situation because the Count will leave and the Nawab, who is not very competent will be left with nothing. It appears that there was no other option.

While waiting for the plane to leave India, Perron decides to visit Hari, whose address he obtained from Rowan. He is shocked at the squalid conditions........Hari is not home, so Perron leaves his card. What was he trying to accomplish by reaching out to Hari? I believe it would have been a fruitless visit.

Ronald was portrayed as the miniseries' antagonist, and I was convinced that he was racist against Indians. But the Count's revelations about Ronald's murder threw me for a loop because I hadn't picked up on any clue about what the Count revealed! His revelations about Ronald's fetish for dressing in Indian garb and closeted attraction toward Indians made me question whether Ronald was really racist.

Despite the Count's own observations supporting his revelation of Ronald's homosexuality, it still dumbfounded me. (To me, it seemed like an unnecessary artifice that the author inserted for narrative expediency.)

Ronald didn't deserve to be murdered, especially as punishment solely for how he had framed, brutalized, and jailed Hari. Along with all of the sectarian murders throughout the miniseries, murdering Ronald proved that Indians weren't seeking justice.

I'll try to answer Jill's questions from what I understand of the miniseries. I think that Ahmed's killing was just another misguided murder by an Indian mob. The British did care about the danger to themselves from mob violence, which was why the Raj enacted laws to protect Anglo-Brits and hired Ronald to police. None of the Anglo-Brits who lived, including Guy, genuinely cared about any Indians or British Indians.

Thanks so much for your comments, James.

Merrick was a very complex character and there were hints dropped throughout the four books that indicated his sexual preferences but they were sometimes hard to spot. My opinion of him differs from yours slightly as I feel that he was a master manipulator who not only hated Indians but "public school" British as well. Class was so important during this time and he was not one of the class to which he aspired. (Hari spoke accepted pronunciation better than Merrick did). His reading of Susan's psychological/psychiatric records indicates his desire to have information (damning or otherwise) that gave him somewhat of a hold over the Laytons.....and then he married the poor girl! So the reason for his murder may have been multi-faceted even though "Babighar" was scrawled on the mirror.

I think he was obsessed with Hari for several reasons.....Hari was involved with a British girl, he was well educated and much more British than Indian, and Merrick was attracted to him. Just my opinion.

Ahmed's killing?..........I'm not sure. It appears that the crowd wanted him specifically but I agree that there was a mob mentality at this point. It could have been for many reasons or no reason at all except Muslims and Hindus slaughtering each other. I tend to think it was his relationship to Old Kasim but I'm not sure what the author was telling us. He often left meanings open-ended to the reader's interpretation.

I do think that there were some British who cared for the Indians......Sarah and Barbie come to mind. The British were caught up in "the white man's burden", so they saw all indigenous people as second class citizens. They were suddenly thrust into the position of visitors in a country which they had ruled for generations and the tide had turned. A very uncomfortable situation indeed.

Jill wrote: " I feel that he was a master manipulator who not only hated Indians but "public school" British as well."

Ronald's hatred of Indians was fueled by a deep-seated racism. (His indignation toward those who were better educated was also apparent, but I don't quite understand British upbringing since I'm a classless American.) But the Count's revelation made me question whether Ronald really hated Indians because I couldn't reconcile his hatred of Indians with his fetish for dressing up in Indian garb and closeted attraction toward Indians.

As a heterosexual, I missed the cues about Ronald's homosexuality. He had professed his desire for Daphne and his intention to marry her. So I'd thought that he malevolently targeted Hari after she had jilted Ronald for someone of a race that he believed to be inferior to his own.

I doubt the Count's revelation about Ronald's homosexuality because Ronald had expressed no such sexual orientation towards Sophie. If Ronald were a latent homosexual, then I'd have to concede that he could have been sexually obsessed with Hari. But this concession would upend my interpretation of Ronald's hatred toward Indians, especially Hari!

Jill wrote: "So the reason for his murder may have been multi-faceted even though "Babighar" was scrawled on the mirror."

Jill, I felt that Ronald's murder was a misguided punishment for his role in what was scrawled on his mirror. I also didn't expect the manner in which his murder was achieved. Were there more poetic justifications for his murder?

I have no doubt that Merrick was a racist but he was also closeted. He didn't dare reveal that or his rise through the ranks would probably have come to a halt. I'm not sure I saw any desire from him regarding Daphne but she would have been a marriage of convenience for him. Susan certainly was and her mental state was a blessing for him rather than a curse. Since the author really didn't go into detail about why she married him, do you think it was because he tried to save Teddie's life and was handicapped because of his efforts? Did she think she owed it to him? I can't imagine that it was a traditional marriage.

The reasons for Merrick's murder?...........obviously revenge for Hari but also his general actions as a policeman which translate to your idea of racism. He was not a kind man where Indians were concerned, whether it be Hari or not. Most Indians of the area knew about Bibighar, therefore the scrawling of the name. But it may have the knowledge of those who murdered him that he was a man who thought Indians were savages, so they became savages and mutilated him.

I don't doubt the Count's story for the simple reason that he had his finger on the pulse of all things happening in Mirat and surrounding areas. His contacts were wide spread from government to street people and he had no reason to make up anything about Merrick unless he had proof. He was a very wise man and I don't see him falling into the pit of rumor and innuendo. So we can agree to disagree, I guess although we basically agree on everything else. If we all interpreted the story in the same manner it would be rather boring and that's why it is interesting to hear other people's opinions. Yours are very cogent.

Here's something interesting for a follow-up read, a biography of an Indian-born suffragette:

by Anita Anand



http://www.npr.org/2015/12/31/4615122...

Thanks for the tip, Kressel.

Jill wrote: "Since the author really didn't go into detail about why she married him, do you think it was because he tried to save Teddie's life and was handicapped because of his efforts?"

(I hadn't thought of this question from Susan's perspective.) After Ronald had tried to save Susan's first husband, Ronald became a hero to her. As a single mother, she needed another husband who can provide for her and her baby. Her marriage of convenience to Ronald would have been one of sexual inconvenience for him.

That is my opinion as well, James. Susan was very fragile psychologically and Merrick takes Teddie's place. Remember, she wasn't married to Teddie very long when he was killed, so her expectations of marriage were not fully formed. I think she was happy with Merrick because he took care of her and her child. I doubt if she made many demands on him and vice-versa.