Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

Middlemarch by George Eliot is our 1st Quarter Long Read for 2016.

This is the Spoiler discussion thread.

This is going to be some read -- and I don't think I can read this without full attention.

The Prelude talks about Saint Teresa of Ávila,, the first chapter references the ugly duckling and the vocabulary is amazing -- not a book for the intellectual lazy reader.

The prelude, as short as it is, does a good job signaling what's coming.

And it doesn't slow down and what one should know about the period. Chapter 2 starts with a quote from Don Quixote, and then the characters talk about meeting William Wordsworth and Humphrey Davy. And more... I'm brushing up on my history as I read.

I had to find a picture of John Locke to get an idea of what Casaubon looked like (at least in Celia's opinion).


John Locke

Agree there is a lot going on here and just a few chapters in!
Happy I am reading on my Kindle (with audio too) as I have had to check several things that pop up...

I am/was reinforced for slogging through Don Quixote when I recognized the quote and even remembered the story it referred to!
It was one of my favorite parts though... ;)

Susie wrote: "...I am/was reinforced for slogging through Don Quixote when I recognized the quote and even remembered the story it referred to!..."

Yeah, now I am thinking I really need to finish my slogging on DQ.

I agree that there is so much in here, but it will be fun to explore, especially with a group. Thank you for the Humphrey Davy link Kathy--I blew past that because it didn't ring any bells. Like Susie, I enjoyed understanding the Don Quixote quote since I just read (and LOVED) it last year. What a great comparison (especially when you look at that picture of John Locke)!

Oh, and reading the prelude convinced me to include the writings of Saint Teresa of Avila on my challenge. I'll try to read it before getting to far into Middlemarch...

Matt wrote: "... I need to brush up on English Reformation, after the mention of Richard Hooker, I remember hearing of him, but don't know enough historical details."

You and me both -- more to learn.

What a letter of proposal to Dorothea. Formal, fairly common for the time, yet parenthetical and self-absorbed. He proposes good deeds she can do for him and goes off on tangents explaining his needs. My goodness, there are even parentheses in this proposal. What a romantic.

And What can the good parson do for Dorothea? Well, he has no skeletons in the closet. Sufficient cause.

Come on Dorothea, pull your head out of your narrow views. Smell the skunk cabbage. Celia can.

Hmmm . . . perhaps the perfect proposal to an ascetic.

I just read that letter too! He is quite a piece of work. I loved how her uncle comes up with reasons, like he supposes she must have a scholar, but still can't quite believe she's going through with it.

Oh, and what a guardian he is. One wonders if he would have protested -- and I abuse the word here -- at all if not for Mrs. Cadwaller's scrutinizing eye. Her guardian was a great, learned man in the past. We know this because he keeps telling us it is so. Not so much so now.

A better guardian would have put an end to this immediately, whacked Casaubon with a cane, and hurried Dorothea and Celia off to London where Dorothea could meet someone more to her way of thinking about good deeds and proper use of the mind. But then Eliot would have had to have found another novel to write.

Her uncle just wants to get along with everyone. A perfect candidate for parliament. But then again, Dorothea is no prize. I can picture her, if her uncle had refused the marriage, throwing a temper tantrum on the kitchen floor. Her ire is as quick to rise as it is to disappear, an indication that she is not as adult as she thinks she is. A good way to get Dorothea to do what you want is to tell her to do the opposite of what you want.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "What a letter of proposal to Dorothea. Formal, fairly common for the time, yet parenthetical and self-absorbed. He proposes good deeds she can do for him and goes off on tangents explaining his nee..."

Very true.dodo needs a bit of shaking up.she herself is self absorbed and a hypocrite and as celia says inconsistent.too full of herself and holds some impossible vision for herself where she does some great sacrificing deeds....does things for acclaim rather than truly doibg those things for the good of the people...

I think he suits her..

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Her uncle just wants to get along with everyone. A perfect candidate for parliament. But then again, Dorothea is no prize. I can picture her, if her uncle had refused the marriage, throwing a tempe...".

Very true....

I too just got through the part with the letter -- and oh my I agree with all of you. I imagine Dodo shall get a reality check eventually?

I am really enjoying this read so far, and the cast of characters all have something that interests me.
Dorothea is quite the case, though...even parts of her personality that might have a positive lean, she seems to twist them into some convuluted picture of what is reality. She seems to approach her impending marriage like taking vows to enter a convent, with all the rapture she thinks awaits her...
A reality check coming? I think so!

When she was visting her soon to be new home, Lowick, and after touring it, her thoughts go to 'which she would have preferred, of finding that her home would be in a parish which had a larger share of the worlds misery...' so she could feel more useful!
That is some wacky thinking, right there...

Oh yeah, and while I appreciate the time this was written in, it is great the author can portray just how disgusting the chauvanism and sexism was back then...wow...

Susie wrote: "Oh yeah, and while I appreciate the time this was written in, it is great the author can portray just how disgusting the chauvanism and sexism was back then...wow... "

Eliot doesn't seem to me to judge the society of Middlemarch with disgust so much as to emphasize growing mobility. One of the tensions in the novel has to do with whether characters are socially the "right" people to interact with--and the distinctions are blurring as tradespeople gain wealth and gentry lose it. As characters make their career (or marriage) choices, they think about land, money, social connection, and also vocation/calling (where there is some choice in what a person can be, and s/he isn't locked into the family trade, for example). In the world of the novel, women are completely dependent on men--either husbands or male family members--for survival. Interestingly, the author herself found a way to escape that destiny through her writing; however, the novel is set 40 years in the past for Eliot and almost 200 years in the past for us. It is definitely significant that in the world of Middlemarch Dorothea makes the socially "right" choice (dutiful, self-subverting, sacrificing wife) in choosing Casaubon, but Eliot shows through the narrative how wrong the choice is for Dorothea (as a woman and not only a wife).

Great analysis, Erich. I think Eliot's lack of judgment is key in allowing us to see the whole story. I'm finding it interesting to get a little more exploration of these social conventions than we see with Jane Austen. It gives us view from a little different lens into some of the same issues.

I'm not sure Dorothea is driven by duty here though. I think she's really into devoting her life to what she sees as important and meaningful--sad as it looks to us!

A few thoughts on Dorothea and Dorothea and Casabaun.

“And she had not reached that point of renunciation at which she would have been satisfied with having a wise husband; she wished, poor child, to be wise herself.”

(…)

“To have in general but little feeling, seems to be the only security against feeling too much on any particular occasion.”


Thus we gain insight into why Dorothea is an ascetic. She has passion and goals, more passion and goals than her times and town will allow. She hasn’t given up but fears failure in the face of powerful forces, so she hedges her bet by denying/suppressing feelings of joy and wonder that usually accompany high aspirations and youth. Better to feel no pleasure than to feel pain.

Then one day this well-learned parson enters her life and finds her interesting because she expresses ideas not commonly expressed by women of his time. And Dorothea now sees a way out. She sees Casabaun more as a mentor and benefactor than as a husband. Unfortunately for her, he sees her more as an engaging companion than a protégée or a wife.

She is making a terrible mistake. He is not a mentor but a dud, a grinch, a cynical ascetic, an older version of herself, what she will become when she loses her passion and old age replaces her youth.

This passage about music is very revealing, and it is already too close to how Dorothea thinks.

“I never could look on it in the light of a recreation to have my ears teased with measured noises,’ said Mr Casabaun. “A tune much iterated has the ridiculous effect of making the words in my mind perform a sort of minuet to keep time — an effect hardly tolerable, I imagine, after boyhood.”

Can’t you see Dorothea saying these very words in her later years. With any luck she will see herself in the mirror that is her husband and change her ways.

Loving your thoughts on the book. Where are you all at in the book?

I didn't mean to imply that Eliot was judging anything, only that as a woman, her portrayal of how women were thought of and treated at that time comes across as more authentic (to me) because it comes from a woman's lived view in that real (or close to real) time, than if written by a man.

Totally agree about the exploring of the broader view(s) of society and life in those times...one of the things I really like so far about this book...

She is making a terrible mistake. He is not a mentor but a dud, a grinch, a cynical ascetic, an older version of herself, what she will become when she loses her passion and old age replaces her youth.

Xan, when Dorothea and Casaubon are in Rome, you'll see even more of it:

C: "Should you like to go to the Farnesina, Dorothea? It contains celebrated frescoes designed or painted by Raphael, which most persons think it worth while to visit."

D: "But do you care about them?"

C: "They are, I believe, highly esteemed."
...
Eliot: There is hardly any contact more depressing to a young ardent creature than that of a mind in which years full of knowledge seem to have issued in a blank absence of interest or sympathy.

If, like me, you are having trouble keeping characters' relationships straight, there is an image of the Middlemarch family trees near the top of the following blog entry: http://doorstopnovels.blogspot.com/20...

This is/will be helpful...thanks!

Susie wrote: "I didn't mean to imply that Eliot was judging anything, only that as a woman, her portrayal of how women were thought of and treated at that time comes across as more authentic (to me) because it c..."

Great point, Susie. In one of these threads there was a link about why Middlemarch was so good, and it mentioned the sympathy toward the characters, no matter their faults, and I really feel that, even when Eliot does show that important woman's "lived view," as you say.

Erich wrote: "If, like me, you are having trouble keeping characters' relationships straight, there is an image of the Middlemarch family trees near the top of the following blog entry: http://doorstopnovels.blo..."

Hey that is a nice find. Thank you, Erich.

Not sure where you are all at -- but do you see any similarities between Dodo & Casaubon's courtship and that of Lydgae & Rosamond? What is similar and what is different here for you?

Erich wrote: "Susie wrote: "Oh yeah, and while I appreciate the time this was written in, it is great the author can portray just how disgusting the chauvanism and sexism was back then...wow... "

Eliot doesn't ..."

Dorothea chosr causabon for the satisfaction of her own self.she wanted learning.she wanted to be great by being a partner of a great person...by doing some great deeds....she wanted to fo things not for the sake of helping others but to satisfy this vision she has of herself as the saint theresa like figure...i felt that her greatest passion is to be a great spiritual person but more for the sake of fulfilling her vision,.
In some ways isnt celia more true...and like celia says dorothea more inconsistent...

I'm at part 5, Chapter 13 I believe. I know this is considered a great work but I hope there is more to this than just tedious interplay, as I'm about ready to beat myself with a sharp stick. Who knew, that I a lover of classics would prefer physical pain to the torture of imbecilic love affairs and archaic chauvinism. I will go on....I will.....go....on....

So far Celia seems to be the more intelligent.

Well -- I'm not much further into it than you -- and the last time I tried to read it and bailed was because I felt exactly how you just described it.

Kathy wrote: "Well -- I'm not much further into it than you -- and the last time I tried to read it and bailed was because I felt exactly how you just described it."

Hahahaha well we can all suffer together while prodding each other along with sharp sticks. :-).

LOL

Yes, there's a lot of that, but I'm still enjoying it...I'll see how I feel when I get as far as you, Rose...

Erich wrote: "If, like me, you are having trouble keeping characters' relationships straight, there is an image of the Middlemarch family trees near the top of the following blog entry: http://doorstopnovels.blo..."

Thank you Erich...I'm normally attentive but it seems as if I missed a transition and I was confused. This helped straighten things a bit.

I'm at Part 6 of 29 or Chapter 17. There are moments when I really enjoy the history lessons but then they start talking about marriages. Ok, so who is narrating the story? Is it Eliot or is it a character in the book? There was no third person in the story that I discerned until this second scene with the Vincey family or Rosalind and Lidgate.

Just for a bit of historical perspective:

The Great Reform Act

In 1832, Parliament passed a law changing the British electoral system. It was known as the Great Reform Act.

This was a response to many years of people criticising the electoral system as unfair. For example, there were constituencies with only a handful of voters that elected two MPs to Parliament. In these rotten boroughs, with few voters and no secret ballot, it was easy for candidates to buy votes. Yet towns like Manchester that had grown during the previous 80 years had no MPs to represent them.

In 1831, the House of Commons passed a Reform Bill, but the House of Lords, dominated by Tories, defeated it. There followed riots and serious disturbances in London, Birmingham, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, Yeovil, Sherborne, Exeter and Bristol.

The riots in Bristol were some of the worst seen in England in the 19th century. They began when Sir Charles Weatherall, who was opposed to the Reform Bill, came to open the Assize Court. Public buildings and houses were set on fire, there was more than £300,000 of damage and twelve people died. Of 102 people arrested and tried, 31 were sentenced to death. Lieutenant-Colonel Brereton, the commander of the army in Bristol, was court-martialed.

There was a fear in government that unless there was some reform there might be a revolution instead. They looked to the July 1830 revolution in France, which overthrew King Charles X and replaced him with the more moderate King Louis-Philippe who agreed to a constitutional monarchy.

In Britain, King William IV lost popularity for standing in the way of reform. Eventually he agreed to create new Whig peers, and when the House of Lords heard this, they agreed to pass the Reform Act. Rotten boroughs were removed and the new towns given the right to elect MPs, although constituencies were still of uneven size. However, only men who owned property worth at least £10 could vote, which cut out most of the working classes, and only men who could afford to pay to stand for election could be MPs. This reform did not go far enough to silence all protest.

Reference: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ed...

Powder River Rose wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Well -- I'm not much further into it than you -- and the last time I tried to read it and bailed was because I felt exactly how you just described it."

Hahahaha well we can all suffe..."


True....i am not sure i wil complete this though....i finished THE LETTER and took a break.still did not resume it.all those reviews are a bit intimidating...saying that all the three main characters,at the end of the story,will still be full of themselves and self absorbed.....at least thats what i inferred...

Kathy wrote: "Just for a bit of historical perspective:

The Great Reform Act

In 1832, Parliament passed a law changing the British electoral system. It was known as the Great Reform Act.

This was a response ..."

Thanks kathy :)

Kathy wrote: "Just for a bit of historical perspective:

The Great Reform Act

In 1832, Parliament passed a law changing the British electoral system. It was known as the Great Reform Act.

This was a response ..."

Great information Kathy.

The story is filled with historical tidbits that whet the curiosity and just might keep me focused. I believe one must actually get past about Chap 17 before the blatherings of romantic stupidity die down.

Come on everyone....siriusedward.....you can do it. Meet at my place for breakfast in the morning (9:00 Pacific) and we can discuss it further. ;-)

You thought I was kidding, didn't you? I'm here enjoying the threads and my breakfast. Have a great day!

I am still in chapter 11, and I'll keep this in mind as I wade into the romantic stupidity. Thanks Rose! (she says, sipping her breakfast tea and eyeing the scones) ... :-)

Powder River Rose wrote: "You thought I was kidding, didn't you? I'm here enjoying the threads and my breakfast. Have a great day!"


Seriously i did.and thanks for the invite. :)
I think i will read, but just now i am immersed in LOTR...nearing the end of The Fellowship...so...

I think i will resume it soon....

I'm about halfway through. Probably won't be an all-time favorite, but I should be able to finish it. Not really much action -- this is a book of characters -- so we should be able to get to know the people.

Kathleen wrote: "I am still in chapter 11, and I'll keep this in mind as I wade into the romantic stupidity. Thanks Rose! (she says, sipping her breakfast tea and eyeing the scones) ... :-)"

Scones...do you really have scones or are you just teasing in the cruelest of ways....hehehehe

Eliot is a very good author but arrogance and stupidity, which is not to say that I'm not prone to these flaws in character also, it's just reading them at length frustrates me. It may be the victorian ideas and dialect are partially to blame.

Erich wrote: "Susie wrote: "Oh yeah, and while I appreciate the time this was written in, it is great the author can portray just how disgusting the chauvanism and sexism was back then...wow... "

Eliot doesn't ..." Message 19

You make some wonderfully valid points Erich. The author does seem to have found a way to at least somewhat escape the destiny of women of the time by taking the pseudonym of George Eliot. In doing so, her writing was actually taken seriously rather than pigeon-holed into the genre more suited to women....hehehe because as we know "the minds of women are too delicate to understand such things"

Kathy wrote: "I'm about halfway through. Probably won't be an all-time favorite, but I should be able to finish it. Not really much action -- this is a book of characters -- so we should be able to get to know t..."

Maybe that's it. There's so much character development and not a lot "going on" that we tire easily. Plus the fact that we look at the length in general and wonder if there's an end in sight. ;-)

Ok, so next Saturday at my place say 9:00 am (Pacific) for breakfast and semi-live dialogue. I hear Kathleen is bringing apricot scones. hehehe

Remember also, this book was originally written as a serial -- so probably a chapter a day or a week (however often the paper came out). So a little goes a long way.

Kathy wrote: "Remember also, this book was originally written as a serial -- so probably a chapter a day or a week (however often the paper came out). So a little goes a long way."Message 49

I keep forgetting that. Yes, I imagine each new segment was highly anticipated by readers at the time. Thank you for all the information you have provided for us on this and the non-spoiler thread. Oh and I like the picture of John Locke as a way of visualizing Casaubon...it's funny he's vaguely similar to what I thought of though oil has the remarkable quality of smoothing out the roughness. ;-)

Oh, I checked and it came out in every two month installments with the final two being monthly because in the beginning it was not popular.

Absolutely--if we're having scones, they must be apricot--yum!

Great info about the installments! I enjoy the slow pace, and thinking for a while about some of Eliot's narrative comments.

One of my favorites so far: "And certainly, the mistakes that we male and female mortals make when we have our own way might fairly raise some wonder that we are so fond of it."

:-)

I think the assessments of Dorothea are somewhat harsh. It would be nice if what one learns from experience could inform one's past actions, unfortunately it's a one-way ticket through this life. Perhaps Casaubon is no Lord Byron, but Dorothea has no lack of handsome suitors. More importantly she has no need for them. She wants to attach herself to something noble in which she can find fulfillment (this was a time in which intellectual opportunities for women were limited. Ask George). What if Casaubon was the real deal? At the point at which she agrees to marry him, do we know for sure he's not?