Chicks On Lit discussion

Setting up a reading and discussion schedule for our next CHUNKY read, Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln.
Our discussion co-leaders will be Irene and Rebecca.

Try to obtain a copy of this book and start reading by February 1st.
Read chapters 1-3 by February 7th
Read chapters 4-6 by February 14th
Read chapters 7-10 by February 21st
Read chapters 11-14 by February 28th
Read chapters 15-18 by March 6th
Read chapters 19-22 by March 13th
Read chapters 23-25 by March 20th
Read chapter 26 and the epilogue by March 27th

Who is interested in joining us for this non-fiction chunky read?

This schedule looks great. Thanks for putting it together. Looking forward to reading this one.

Great Thank you for setting the reading schedule. Looking forward to it.

I have a copy of this and have been wanting to read, so I plan on joining in.

I started the book. It is very readable. I admit I didn't think I would enjoy it ,but I am. You learn a lot through these men's lives.

We'd love to have you join us, Stacey.
I just started reading last night. I agree with Rebecca, it is very readable.

I've started as well. I think I'll enjoy it.

I'm reading about Seward's life in Auburn. I live about 45 minutes away from Auburn. His house is still there, I think I took a school trip there when I was young. http://sewardhouse.org/about-the-sewa...

How funny, Jennifer! I googled that exact same website last night, as I wanted to see what the house and gardens looked like after his walking paths and all the trees he planted were mentioned. There are also some good photos of the grounds, and of his library, on Trip Advisor. :-)

I just started this chunky read. I'm afraid that I'm likely going to read at a slower pace than all of you.

I do not know much about Lincoln, and I have certainly never read another biography of him. The author starts out in her introduction basically trying to convince the reader that yet another biography of Lincoln is going to be worth reading. I'm coming at this with it being my first biography of Lincoln. So, that mis-match of what she thinks is her audience and me is interesting. We'll see how it plays out. I'm wondering if she will end up skipping things because she figures that the reader already knows it. If it weren't for this group, I probably wouldn't have picked up this book. That and, well, the movie Lincoln was pretty good.

I also have to say I'm a bit skeptical that Lincoln was really this larger-than-life figure. I know that the historian is using primary sources and that these were people's actual descriptions of him. It makes me think that in a time before videos, all we have are words. (well, that and still pictures/drawings) And so, all the descriptions of him make him out to be this larger-than-life, absolutely amazing character. Maybe he really was. But, the grandeur of the descriptions makes me hesitate and skeptical.

I just read somewhere that Lincoln has become an icon for Americaa, who he is, changing with the generation. He was the abolitionist, he was the man who saved the union, he was the tortured, wounded soul, now he is the political genius who could bring people together across ideological lines.

I've read a couple of biographies of Lincoln. One that was very dry and argued against our reverence of him was Lincoln at Gettysburg: The Words That Remade America. The other one that restored some of my enthusiasm was The Hour of Peril: The Secret Plot to Murder Lincoln Before the Civil War. I'm interested to see where this book falls.

On the other hand, I know almost nothing about the "rivals". A bit embarrassing since Seward was an important figure in NY history, and, as I've already mentioned, his house is a stone's throw away....

Viola wrote: "I just started this chunky read. I'm afraid that I'm likely going to read at a slower pace than all of you.

I do not know much about Lincoln, and I have certainly never read another biography of h..."

I am with Viola. I will probably be reading at a slower pace than the rest of the crew. I flew through chapters 1-2 but 3 is dragging on. I find myself less interested in the other men's lives . . .

Can someone here give a quick summary of the political process at that time period? Did it work like it does now? With the primaries being held at each state separately? And with each state having a certain number of delegates?

That is an interesting question. I am not sure when we adopted the electoral college method.

Hope to start reading this tonight.

Oh good lord... I don't think I can do this one. I just don't care AT ALL about the other men. Lincoln is super interesting. But this is like reading Game of Thrones and wondering when the next Tyrion chapter is going to be and how many awful chapters of Brienne do we have to wade through? (I know, I'm mixing up some books, but you get the idea.)

Sorry ladies, I think I'm going to have to find a different Lincoln biography if I want to know more about him.

I am sorry about that Viola. In contrast I find myself enjoying the other men's story's. I think you are right that the political bits are more of asides. I understand though if you are disappointed and looking for something else. It looks so far to me like not much has changed in the way political parties operate and try to carry out their agendas. Just different names and players.

Just skim or skip the chapters you don't like, Viola! :-) I read chapter 3 last night and admit I was getting a bit bored by some of the details on the rivals. But I'm going to stick it out. Wasn't the movie Lincoln based on this book?

I only read the Intro last night. It was a 13 hour work day and I fell asleep trying to start chapter 1. Better luck tonight, although today will be at least a 12 hour work day. I am interested in learning about the other men because I am expecting this to be an analysis of how Lincoln brought very different men with conflicting agendas and political views together. So, I need to know how those men thought. But, I can understand if this is not for everyone.

Sheila, I might just do that, although I hate it when people do that. I honestly do find Lincoln very interesting. I enjoyed the movie a lot more than I thought I would. So, maybe I will stick with it.

Oh, and by that, I meant that I'm just outright skipping the boring parts. Which I would normally harshly criticize others for doing. If you are going to skip through parts, why bother reading at all?!? Sigh... I'll have to reconcile that conflict with myself somehow.

LOL Viola! This is a book club, not a college class. Skimming and skipping the boring part is most definitely allowed here if it keeps you participating! I say do whatever it takes, and don't be ashamed to admit it! :-)

That's exactly what I said Viola :) I completely understand how you feel.

Haha! If you can't tell, I was the one sitting in the front row of every lecture.

One thought that struck me was how similar our politics are now compared to back then. The degree of magnitude is not as large. (I'm not exactly sure how to word it.) Back then the fight was about slavery, and now there is the black lives matter movement. So the magnitude is definitely different. But, the fights about immigration feels the same. The disagreements about federal appropriations. Platforms to improve public schools and invest in transportation infrastructure (back then it was canals and now... I don't know. Highways? Bridges?)

Yes, Viola, I can now picture you in the front row of every lecture, taking voluminous notes! :-)

And I agree, it seems that in politics, even though times have changed, many many things are still the same!

Lots of description! I listened to it on Audio and then went back and read the parts that I wanted to read!!

While everyone is reading through the chapters for the first discussion on this book, I was wondering what brought each of us to this book.

Why did you decide to read this very long book?

How much do you already know about Lincoln?

What questions or interests do you bring to this book?

Ooh! Love your questions Irene.

Why did you decide to read this very long book?
I don't know much about Lincoln, and thought that I should learn some more. I also enjoyed the movie Lincoln and thought I'd get through this massive book with a group.

How much do you already know about Lincoln?
Not much. Just the basics -- On the $5 bill and penny. President during Civil War. Assassinated by John Wilkes Booth at Ford's Theater, which is really close to me (I work in DC), but I've never visited.

Interestingly, I just read a children's book called Abe Lincoln's Hat to my son and learned a few things about him myself in that book. So perhaps having just read that spurred my interest.

What questions or interests do you bring to this book?
I'm really wondering if the glorification of his character is really warranted. Have we made him out to be more of a hero than he really was? Or is he truly deserving of that?

I was thinking about these questions and realized that I have not read anything about Lincoln in decades. It is as if I learned everything I need to know in high school. LOL

I wanted to read this book because I keep running into people who tell me how interesting it is. People who are not avid readers have raved about it to me. So, I thought it must be worth the effort.

What I remember from my earlier reading of the Civil War era, I understand that the elected officials were very divided at this time. The movie, "Lincoln" portrayed this hostile divisiveness. Yet, Lincoln managed to push through legislation that preserved the union. If he could do it at that time, why can't we manage to bring people together to pass a simple budget. (PA, my state, has gone more than 6 months without passing a budget). I want to see if Lincoln's genius can teach us anything today.

Viola wrote: "Can someone here give a quick summary of the political process at that time period? Did it work like it does now? With the primaries being held at each state separately? And with each state having ..."

I was interested in the amount of serving time for branches. I am getting a sense they were longer. Pages 88-89 Say that Lincoln served 8 years to our present U. S legislature term of 6 years.

Party organization, precincts, and polls. Seem to run the same.

What do think of the lengths they went to keep there party voters? they would keep watch and have them talked to? Also the fund raising to send 50 to 100 back then that had to have been a lot.

Rebecca wrote: "Viola wrote: "Can someone here give a quick summary of the political process at that time period? Did it work like it does now? With the primaries being held at each state separately? And with each..."

Using a random online inflation calculator, $50 in 1850 would be equivalent to $1492 in today's dollars and $100 in 1850 would be equivalent to $2984 in today's dollars.

I can't imagine trying to fundraise that way. That's a lot of money!

I think nowadays the max you can contribute is $2K, although there are exceptions like the SuperPACs, etc.

Why did you decide to read this very long book?
Mostly because I enjoy tackling books I normally would not pick to read with this great group. It's easier when their is great discussion

How much do you already know about Lincoln?
Not much really other than him being called Honest Abe. His big statue

What questions or interests do you bring to this book?
how does his melancholy continues to effect his life?
I am interested mostly in his involvement in emancipation and the abolitionist movement.

I'm into the third chapter & believe I will enjoy it. I have wanted to read this for some time, but I tend to put off such large nonfiction books; & don't like to check them out of the library because I feel rushed. I wanted to read it first because I read No Ordinary Time: Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt: The Home Front in World War II several years ago & enjoyed it; then also because I read so many great reviews about this book. Just a few months ago, I picked up a copy of this book at a library sale for practically nothing, so can read at my leisure. However, since it is such a heavy book, I have also checked it out on Overdrive, so I can read it on my Kindle; at least, for awhile. I have read some about Lincoln though it's been awhile. Used to have a copy of Sandburg's biography which I started, but, again, so big & heavy, I never got very far. I've never read much on Lincoln's cabinet & think this is an interesting take on his life--making the comparisons. It really adds to the stories we hear of Lincoln & what he went through to get his own education.

If it's ok, I may join in periodically. I didn't think I could, but I'm no longer able to play the musical I'm usually involved in this time of year. A shoulder injury - surgery pending. But I've still got some huge costuming responsibilities and spring conferences coming up.

I read this book awhile back - before the movie came out. I wanted to read it because I find this period in American history fascinating. I was a bit disappointed, as it turns out the movie was supposedly based only on the last portion of the Goodwin's book. But the movie was still wonderful - most Spielbergs are. There's a good article about their collaboration on it: http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/bo...

Patricia - I too have read - well am in the last 35 pages of No Ordinary Time. It is a wonderful book. I also had started both books in paperback and eventually switched to Kindle. Too darn big!

I found so much of the book pertinent to our present day situation. Like Viola said earlier - there is so much with the racial divides in this country. We have come a long way and we've taken so many steps backwards. I don't know that anyone could have foreseen where we are today when the civil war ended. The only thing I'll mention right now is the polarization within the parties. There was and still is so much division and criticism within and across party lines. Plus the seeming flip flop of what we now think of as conservative Republicans versus liberal Democrats. I totally did NOT remember that Republicans were the anti-slavery party of that time and Lincoln was the first Republican president. This doesn't seem to line up for me, as present day modern Republicans have now become identified with social conservatism and "traditional" values. Republicans were the renegades of Lincoln's day, bucking the traditions of slavery and big money.

I was also somewhat surprised at how much criticism Lincoln faced in his election and during his Presidency. I think this had to be behind the diversity in his cabinet. He eventually picked not just his political rivals, but people that were ideologically not always totally in line with his vision - in an attempt to assure more people 'get on board.' It was so interesting how much wrangling and bargaining there was in the election process. And we thought such politicking and manipulating election outcomes was a new thing?! NOT!

Nancy (NE) wrote: "If it's ok, I may join in periodically. I didn't think I could, but I'm no longer able to play the musical I'm usually involved in this time of year. A shoulder injury - surgery pending. But I've s..."

I did know that the Lincoln was of the Republican party, but I didn't realize how much of that party coalesced around anti-slavery as a core issue. I find it to be so fascinating because today those political parties have essentially reversed.

I know!! As I was reading the book there were some almost jaw dropping moments as I came to realize the parties really seem to have reversed. Its too early say much yet - but it continues to get more interesting.

I do think the early part of the book was amazing in showing how he had risen from such obscurity. He came from nothing and how he worked his way to the nomination was an arduous process.

I found the descriptions of his sense of humor a surprise. Photographs of him always look so serious. Granted the presidency seems to ravage a person - every man who's gone through even one term looks to have aged immeasurably. But I enjoyed reading about Lincoln's love of story telling etc. and using stories to make a point.

I did know that Republicans were the progressive, anti-slavery party of the mid 19th century. I would love to know how the party migrated to its current position. I had also read that Lincoln had a rye sense of humor and was a skilled story teller, famous for his ability to captivate an audience.

Goodwin starts her study of Lincoln with parallel stories of three other prominant politicians of his day. Is there value in studying an influential political figure in contrast to his contemporaries? Does this sort of compare and contrast offer you insights into Lincoln that you did not have from straight biographies?

It does seem like the political parties have completely flip flopped in their ideology. I wonder when the shift occurred?

What do you think of the role the women play to each of the men in this book?

Do you find yourself feeling for one couple more than the other?

For those who have suffered great loses in their lives sister's mothers, wives. What do you see as a result in their characters/personal lives?

How is everyone doing at this point with the reading?

I have finished chapter 4.

I don't think I have that good of a feel for the wives yet. Maybe I was just concentrating too much on the men.

I was struck by how similar Lincoln's and Weed's background were. Both become powerful, but one becomes a king maker while the other becomes a king.

Irene wrote: "Goodwin starts her study of Lincoln with parallel stories of three other prominant politicians of his day. Is there value in studying an influential political figure in contrast to his contemporari..."

I've had a relatively hard time getting interested in the lives of the other men, but I think the compare and contrast helped me in two ways:

One to more starkly illustrate Lincoln's very humble roots. We know that he had humble roots, but the extent of just how different it was is made more apparent in comparison to his contemporaries. Because one might have had the notion that "back then" people were more impoverished than they are now. Which is true, but still, the people who rose to political power generally were not from impoverished families.

Two, I particularly liked the comparison to Seward on the slavery issue. Like I had said beforehand, I'm interested to see whether Lincoln really was this great hero that he is currently glorified to be nowadays. Part of his hero status is that he was central to the freeing of slaves. So, it's interesting to learn that he was not the most liberal of his contemporaries on the slavery issue. And that he was a bit more moderate and that Seward was more antislavery than he was.

I've only finished Chapter 3 so far, and I'm going to have to take a hiatus because I have to read another book for my in-person book club. But, I'll say, that so far I'm glad to have stuck with it, even though I did skip over some parts.

I'm also interested on how Lincoln compares to his contemporaries on the slavery issue. I had heard that he was not as anti-slavery as some have made him out to be. I read chapter 4 last night and I get the impression that Lincoln is more of a pragmatist than Seward. Lincoln understands that a total anti-slavery stance on topics such as the District of Columbia will meet with too much opposition. So, he crafts legislation that allows for some recognition of the legality of slave owning rather than lose everything. It is interesting for me to see this on an issue that seems so black and white to me. Slavery is so repulsive to me that any comprimise seems repugnant. But, coprimise allowed for incrimental movement. It makes me think of the polarization on so many issues today. So many political figures backed by their constituants refuse to make any compremise on issues they see as vitally important (I'm thinking of the gun lobby as an example) Are people right to hold firm to their absolute stands and risk gridlock or should they be willing to compremise and risk a creeping erosion of their position?

How is everyone doing?

What do you think of Lincoln's pragmatism verses Seward's absolute anti-slavery stance? Lincoln argues for accepting the rights of current slave owners and for returning run away slaves in places like DC and new territories just so he can limit new slave ownership in those places. Do you agree or disagree?

What did you think of Lincoln giving up his nomination so that the party could win rather than fighting for his clear majority? How would you feel if your candidate did that today?

Any thoughts about Mary Lincoln? She seems to be in fragile mental health. I can't imagine that being cooped up in a little room in DC with little kids would help. Nor, do I think her time away from her husband helps her situation. Politics seems to be a way he can escape her irratic moods. Should he leave her to pursue his career given her state? I can't imagine what it is like for the kids to be left with a mother who is so unstable.

I am behind somewhat but will keep reading the next few days to catch up.
I like Lincoln's thinking. I think he was hoping stopping the spread and limiting states would lead to cool things off and maybe others would be more accepting of this later on.

I can see how just wanting stopping slavery made states mad and tempers flair especially in respect to financial profit.

I wonder how the plan of keeping it confined would have actually worked and don't think it would have.

Irene you have such great questions.

How is everyone doing with the reading? Do we need to modify the reading schedule? I have to admit that I have not read any of this week's assignment yet because I am slogging through Mary Barton for the classic read in this group. I so badly want that one off my pile.

I've read through Chapter 4 of Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln, and now on a hiatus.

I'm reading another book for my in-person book club that is meeting this weekend.

I would be surprised if there people weren't reading other books while reading this. I read a lot yesterday so I think I can keep up. I am almost to 6 now. It's not as interesting as in the beginning but sprinkled throughout are some bits of interest to me.

Stacey, I thinkit is really nice that you and your husband like to read together. You will have to share his insights and thoughts with us.

Stacey wrote: "I apologize for not commenting after I said that I would. I am really liking the book, but I restarted it so that my husband could read it with me (we like to read books together... is that dorky? :D)"

I am SO jealous! I'm beyond jealous. You have no idea. I wish my husband read books.