Outlander Series discussion

I do too! I think that the Reverend knew or suspected a great deal about everything. There seems to be some piece of paper or evidence to do with so many of the people and events throughout all the of books.

I don't remember reading when he started his huge collection of all those odds and ends history papers of his. But I do wonder, was it before or after what happened to Claire?

I always kinda felt like he was collecting all that stuff for a reason beyond the love of history.

This is one of those things I hope Diana doesn't leave open when she finishes the series. Who knew...and when!

In Franks letter to Wakefield he is informing him that Jamie was a real person. So they didn't find out that information together. Whether or not Wakefield already had it and purposely didn't tell Frank is another story. I can't fathom any reason why he wouldn't tell Frank had he known.

But if Wakefield knew, he keeps quiet about it, even while planting Jamie's fake grave at Franks request. I would feel like a huge liar at this point and then worse while reading Franks obviously emotionally bitter letter.

I wish there were dates. That would be helpful. I know somewhere in the books Frank goes to visit Wakefield after Claire's return, at this point he either finds Jamie in history or did so just before his visit. His letter to Wakefield is written with a considerable amount of time after that. And in between his visit and this letter is the planting of the grave. All with a considerable amount of time between them by the way the letter reads.

Does anyone remember what Wakefield died of or who died first? Franks letter sounds like he's on his death bed, or at the end of his life. Except Frank died in a car crash so he wouldn't have known he was going to die. But I wonder if he was writing to Wakefield who was dying? That would make a man be more in touch with his mortality and look for forgiveness for sins committed. But that would also mean that he didn't know until the end of his life at least.....because I don't think it was early on that Wakefield died.

Holy crap. So my copy of Drums of Autumn was damaged. I remember copying over the letter but couldn't quite get everything right because of that. Well I replaced it with a digital copy and just went to check out Franks letter to Wakefield again to recap for myself. The very first couple of sentences make it sound like he is dying! I think Frank might have had a terminal illness even though that's not what he died from. HOW did we miss this???? Lol.

Here is the letter again but with no mistakes this time.
Dear Reg (the letter said);

I’ve something the matter with my heart. Besides Claire, I mean (says he, with irony). The doctor says it might be years yet, with care, and I hope it is—but there’s the odd chance. The nuns at Bree’s school used to scare the kids into fits about the horrible fate in store for sinners who died unconfessed and unforgiven; damned (if you’ll pardon the expression) if I’m afraid of whatever comes after—if anything. But again—there’s the odd chance, isn’t there?

Not a thing I could say to my parish priest, for obvious reasons. I doubt he’d see the sin in it, even if he didn’t slip out to telephone discreetly for psychiatric help!

But you’re a priest, Reg, if not a Catholic—and more importantly, you’re my friend. You needn’t reply to this; I don’t suppose a reply is possible. But you can listen. One of your great gifts, listening. Had I told you that before?

I’m delaying, though I don’t know why I should. Best have it out.

You’ll recall the favor I asked you a few years ago—about the gravestones at St. Kilda’s? Kind friend that you are, you never asked, but it’s time I should tell you why.

God knows why old Black Jack Randall should have been left out there on a Scottish hill instead of taken home to Sussex for burial. Perhaps no one cared enough to bring him home. Sad to think of; I rather hope it wasn’t that.

There he is, though. If Bree’s ever interested in her history—in my history—she’ll look, and she’ll find him there; the location of his grave is mentioned inthe family papers. That’s why I asked you to have the other stone put up nearby. It will stand out—all the other stones in that kirkyard are crumbling away with age.

Claire will take her to Scotland one day; I’m sure of that much. If she goes to St. Kilda’s, she’ll see it—no one goes into an old churchyard and doesn’t have a browse round the stones. If she wonders, if she cares to look further—if she asks Claire—well, that’s as far as I’m prepared to go. I’ve made the gesture; I shall leave it to chance what happens when I’ve gone.

You know all the rubbish Claire talked when she came back. I did all I could to get it out of her head, but she wouldn’t be budged; God, she is a stubborn woman!

You’ll not credit this, perhaps, but when I came last to visit you, I hired a car and went to that damned hill—to Craigh na Dun. I told you about the witches dancing in the circle, just before Claire disappeared. With that eerie sight in mind, standing there in the early light among those stones—I could almost believe her. I touched one. Nothing happened, of course.

And yet. I looked. Looked for the man—for Fraser. And perhaps I found him. At least I found a man of that name, and what I could dredge up of his connections matched what Claire told me of him. Whether she was telling the truth, or whether she had grafted some delusion onto real experience…well, there was a man, I’m sure of that!

You’ll scarcely credit this, but I stood there with my hand on that bloody stone, and wanted nothing more than that it should open, and put me face-to-face with James Fraser. Whoever he was, whenever he was, I wanted nothing more in life than to see him—and to kill him.

I have never seen him—I don’t know that he existed!—and yet I hate this man as I have never hated anyone else. If what Claire said and what I found was true—then I’ve taken her from him, and kept her by me through these years by a lie. Maybe only a lie of omission, but nonetheless a lie for that. I could call that revenge, I suppose.

Priests and poets call revenge a two-edged sword; and the other edge of it is that I’ll never know—if I gave her the choice, would she have stayed with me? Or if I told her that her Jamie survived Culloden, would she have been off to Scotland like a shot?

I cannot think Claire would leave her daughter. I hope she’d not leave me, either…but…if I had any certainty of it, I swear I’d have told her, but I haven’t, and that’s the truth of it.

Fraser—shall I curse him for stealing my wife, or bless him for giving me my daughter? I think these things, and then I stop, appalled that I should be giving a moment’s credence to such a preposterous theory. And yet…I have the oddest sense of James Fraser, almost a memory, as though I must have seen him somewhere. Though likely this is just the product of jealousy and imagination—I know what the bastard looks like, well enough; I see his face on my daughter, day by day!

That’s the queer side of it, though—a sense of obligation. Not just to Bree, though I do think she’s a right to know—later. I told you I had a sense of the bastard? Funny thing is, it’s stayed with me. I can almost feel him, sometimes, looking over my shoulder, standing across the room.

Hadn’t thought of this before—do you suppose I’ll meet him in the sweet by-and-by, if there is one? Funny to think of it. Should we meet as friends, I wonder, with the sins of the flesh behind us? Or end forever locked in some Celtic hell, with our hands wrapped round each other’s throat?

I treated Claire badly—or well, depending how one looks at it. I won’t go into the sordid details; leave it that I’m sorry.

So there it is, Reg. Hate, jealousy, lying, stealing, unfaithfulness, the lot. Not much to balance it save love. I do love her—love them. My women. Maybe it’s not the right kind of love, or not enough. But it’s all I’ve got.

Still, I won’t die unshriven—and I’ll trust you for a conditional absolution. I raised Bree as a Catholic; do you suppose there’s some forlorn hope that she’ll pray for me?

“It was signed, ‘Frank,’ of course,” Roger said.

I still don't feel that Frank believed Claire though. I think bottom line, he was unsure either way. I mean, its just so insane! However he does do the research and finds that the details match. Jamie did exist. It would be enough proof to make a person wonder. BUT its only enough proof to make you feel crazy for wondering. Know what I mean? Its not the kind of solid proof that Jamie had watching Claire disappear or that Roger and Bree had seeing Gellie disappear. Its just not conclusive evidence and the story is too sensational to truly believe without that concrete evidence.

I don't know, I guess my first inclination would be that Claire had been kidnapped by some crazy historian (other than myself).

Obviously though, Frank does doubt enough to the point he has a fake grave planted. That's some serious questioning! But in the end he still states that he doesn't know what to believe and in reality, who can blame him.

It seems strange to me, that if Wakefield knew about how his son crashed by those stones with no body found, that he would seriously question Claire's story. And if he did why didn't he tell Frank that? If he questioned it, I'm sure he would have researched it, if he researched it he would have found Jamie. So if he found Jamie, then why didn't he tell Frank?

But I don't think Wakefield was told about his son. After all it was a top secret operation. He was probably told that story about the Bermuda Triangle. But why didn't this thought ever come to Frank? It makes me think that Diana hadnt planned to go this route.

I guess at the same time it is during the war and so many people were held in the pow camps and killed. It might not have even popped into Franks head that anything peculiar (except the obvious) could have happened to Rogers dad despite what Claire claimed.

Julie wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "I still don't feel that Frank believed Claire though. I think bottom line, he was unsure either way. I mean, its just so insane! However he does do the research and finds that the ..."

Sorry, I don't know what you mean lol

Wakefield may have done research for frank at other times but not on Jamie. Its quite clear in his letter.

He explains to Reg why he asked him to plant the tombstone.

"recall the favor I asked you a few years ago—about the gravestones at St. Kilda’s? Kind friend that you are, you never asked, but it’s time I should tell you why."

"I looked. Looked for the man—for Fraser. And perhaps I found him. At least I found a man of that name, and what I could dredge up of his connections matched what Claire told me of him. Whether she was telling the truth, or whether she had grafted some delusion onto real experience…well, there was a man, I’m sure of that!"

If Wakefield also had been researching Jamie by a request from Frank the letter would be worded differently. Instead though, Frank is informing Wakefield not only that he found Jamie, but that he was searching for him in the first place.

I'm thinking its quite possible that Wakefield knew some things for some time but I can't fathom any reasons why he didn't tell anyone.

I feel this way because of my personality. If I had a friend, who's wife was claiming what Claire did, IF I were a historian, I would look up the information. Not because I questioned if it could be true. But rather because I would think perhaps conclusive proof of lack of Jamie's existence would help my friends wife get through her delusional state.

At the same time I would feel this way, I can understand how Frank wouldn't. Not right away anyways. At first your time is spent in discussions, reasoning, and the care taking of your seemingly abused and delusional partner. After quite a bit of time with nothing changing I would do the research, which is how it happened with Frank.

But if i were that friend, the one off to the side, the one not directly involved in this very emotionally charged scenario... I would do the research thinking it might be helpful at some point.

But that's me. Wakefield might not be anything like me.

I think that all of the tie ins he seems to have, ie the letter of explanation of the head stone for Jamie, the box of letters for Brianna and Rodger, and much of the research that Rodger uses for Claire in DOA, are just things that Diana gabaldon uses to explain where they got some information. it is much the same why that no Rowling used Hermionie Granger in Harry potter, they needed to know something and therefore she either knew where to look or already had the knowledge.

ALOTWOAH is discussed a bit above. I think most of us have read it though.

I'm kinda with Maddie on this. It is a HUGE COINCIDENCE that Wakefield has so much of this information. Iy seems like too much of one at times. But it might just be that, a coincidence.

Mrsbooks wrote: "I'm thinking its quite possible that Wakefield knew some things for some time but I can't fathom any reasons why he didn't tell anyone.


I totally agree with you. I am a historian...I think at least Frank, probably Rev. Wakefield too, went in search of proof of Claire's story. By nature historians and genealogists love a good mystery and we'll research it until we find the answer. Being a Jacobite scholar, I find it hard to believe that Frank wouldn't go looking for the historical evidence to Claire's story. Being both an Oxford & Harvard scholar, he'd be able to use his position to request all sorts of historical documents to find the proof he needed.

Re: Rev. Wakefield, I think if he did find out anything in research & remained silent, he did so out of respect to his friend...or possibly because of his position as a preacher. Hard to say. Sometimes we don't get the full story of an action in the Outlander series until a future book.

I love Raymond! He is so interesting and intriguing with so much back story that I would love a book just about his past.

I am sure he was from way way back like one of the first ones and it is his line that can travel. I am sure I read something somewhere in one of the books but I cannot remember.

Obviously my memory is not as sharp as others here also. I just remember something about him in that respect and why he sees the blue aura around travelers that are from his line, which Claire had. It may have been from a side story or something I just can't remember where I read it.

I just checked the Raymond thread here and it is mentioned in post 11

Read the spoiler in post 11 of the Raymond the Apathacary thread here

I heard Raymond is (view spoiler)[ Claire's ancestor. Was it mentioned in the Outlander companion? I don't know I haven't read it. But somewhere here on these threads someone posted a quote from Diana saying so. He is from a very old time 400 b.c.e?? <\spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

Don't read this spoiler if you haven't read all the books out yet. Including ALITWOAH and TSB.

What I find neat now, and talking about huge coincidences, is that (view spoiler)[ Fergus is Claire's ancestor. <\spoiler>
At times its difficult to believe that Wakefield or Frank could have made it their whole lives with knowing nothing, especially when Wakefield had all the information in his own collection. But when you think of that other coincidence...

I think Diana is just really good at tying in old story lines with new ones. It does make things, sometimes too coincidental. But it makes things more interesting in my opinion. (hide spoiler)]

Julie wrote: "Diane wrote: "I love Raymond! He is so interesting and intriguing with so much back story that I would love a book just about his past."

Me too!!! I have often wondered if he was a time traveler too!"

You HAVE to read "A Space Between" novella!!! It explains A LOT about Master Raymond...Will answer so many questions about time travel!!!

It's a MUST for Master Raymond fans!!! And it just came out in April as a stand alone book!

Mrsbooks wrote: "Don't read this spoiler if you haven't read all the books out yet. Including ALITWOAH and TSB.

[spoiler]
"

Mrsbooks, (view spoiler)[ Are we sure that Fergus is Claire's ancestor? I haven't read the Outlandish Companion but I've read all of the novels, novellas, and short stories, including the Lord Johns. We know Fergus's mother was a Beauchamp, but we also know that 1) Percy is now a Beauchamp (Fergus's uncle by marriage), having taken his wife's name, 2) Percy has sherry-colored eyes, like Claire does (Lord John makes an internal remark about their color sometime in Brotherhood, I believe), and 3) Percy is able to sleep with women, whether for fun or just as a means to an end, and presumably capable of fathering children. I've been assuming Percy is Claire's ancestor and that we'll hear about some offspring from Percy's marriage in due time. Is there something more than Fergus's parentage that suggests Fergus and Claire are related? I would love to add the possibility of Fergus being Claire's ancestor to my pet Outlander theories! (hide spoiler)]

Cait wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "Don't read this spoiler if you haven't read all the books out yet. Including ALITWOAH and TSB.

[spoiler]

If you've read The space Between this should make more sense. As you know Raymond explains to Comte St. Germain that his decendents have a blue aura around them and no one else. They both have one.

We know from the last book read ABOSAA that this same Comte St. Germain is claiming he is Fergus real father.

Just after Raymond healed Claire from her miscarriage they have this conversation. (view spoiler)[

“Why do you call me madonna still?” I asked. My hands rested on the slight concavity of my stomach, gently as though not to disturb the shattering emptiness. “I’ve lost my child.”

He looked mildly surprised.

“Ah. I did not call you madonna because you were with child, my lady.”

Why, then?” I didn’t really expect him to answer, but he did. Tired and drained as we both were, it was as though we were suspended together in a place where neither time nor consequence existed; there was room for nothing but truth between us.

He sighed.

“Everyone has a color about them,” he said simply. “All around them, like a cloud. Yours is blue, madonna. Like the Virgin’s cloak. Like my own.”

The gauze curtain fluttered briefly and he was gone.<\spoiler>

In The Space Between Raymond also said a few times to Comte St. Germain that he was looking for a lost daughter. I just assumed that he meant.... (view spoiler)[ Claire. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

It doesn't mess up the timeline at all though. It just puts pieces in earlier that we didn't know about.

Here is the bit from The Space Between that covers who has the aura. And again the bit from Dragonfly in Amber.

(view spoiler)[

“Your daughter,” the comte said hoarsely to the man who called himself Master Raymond. “You were looking for a lost daughter. I’ve found her for you.”
Raymond’s brows shot up, and he glanced at Joan.
“Mine?” he said, astonished. “She isn’t one of mine. Can’t you tell?”
The comte drew a breath so deep it cracked in his throat.
“Tell? But—”
The frog looked impatient.
“Can you not see auras? The electrical fluid that surrounds people,” he elucidated, waving a hand around his own head.
The comte rubbed a hand hard over his face. “I can’t—”
“For goodness sake, come in here!” Raymond stepped to the edge of the star, reached across, and seized the comte’s hand.

Rakoczy stiffened at the touch. Blue light exploded from their linked hands, and he gasped, feeling a surge of energy such as he had never before experienced. Raymond pulled hard, and Rakoczy stepped across the line into the pentagram.
Silence. The buzzing had stopped. He nearly wept with the relief of it.
“I—you—” he stammered, looking at the linked hands.
“You didn’t know?” Raymond looked surprised.
"That you were a—” He waved at the pentagram. “I thought you might be.”
“Not that,” Raymond said, almost gently. “That you were one of mine.”
“Yours?” Rakoczy looked down again; the blue light was pulsing gently now, surrounding their fingers.
“Everyone has an aura of some kind,” Raymond said. “But only my … people … have this.”
In the blessed silence, it was possible to think again. And the first thing that came to mind was the Star Chamber, the king looking on as they had faced each other over a poisoned cup. And now he knew why the frog hadn’t killed him.




Here is the bit again from Dragonfly in Amber that shows Claire has it too.



Why do you call me madonna still?” I asked. My hands rested on the slight concavity of my stomach, gently as though not to disturb the shattering emptiness. “I’ve lost my child.”

He looked mildly surprised.

“Ah. I did not call you madonna because you were with child, my lady.”

"Why, then?” I didn’t really expect him to answer, but he did. Tired and drained as we both were, it was as though we were suspended together in a place where neither time nor consequence existed; there was room for nothing but truth between us.

He sighed.

“Everyone has a color about them,” he said simply. “All around them, like a cloud. Yours is blue, madonna. Like the Virgin’s cloak. Like my own.”

The gauze curtain fluttered briefly and he was gone.


Because the Comte is claiming to be Fergus father, the next logical step is that he is an ancestor of Claire.
<\spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

Mrsbooks wrote: "Cait wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "Don't read this spoiler if you haven't read all the books out yet. Including ALITWOAH and TSB.

[spoilers]



I'm not sure it's clear that (view spoiler)[ everyone with the blue aura is a direct descendant of Raymond, just that they share a genetic trait. He uses "daughter" and "son" but also refers to them as "my people." This could indicate a kinship that's not a direct line of descent, or even just a kinship based on abilities.

I think Fergus being the son of the Comte and Percy's eyes offer competing theories of descent for Claire, but Percy makes more sense to me because of the appearance traits as well as the direct name. The Beauchamps could also be travelers/have the blue aura; while the Comte doesn't know about the auras until The Space Between, perhaps that's how he was subliminally attracted to Fergus's mother in the first place. (hide spoiler)]

There is another aspect of this too that's neat. Because of Raymond's time travel, had he already been to the future when he first met Claire? Its possible that he hadnt. He has no teeth when he meets Claire but in TSB he has teeth. This could be dentures. He also didn't bat an eyelash when Claire asked him if he had a vaccination scar.

Unless she had specifically said she was a time traveler he wouldn't have been able to pick up on all the obvious things she says that show what century she's from.

It would then explain why he is looking for her in tsb. After he goes to the future and then thinks back and realizes that's where Claire is from.

Also wasn't he the person that was teaching the Native American boys how to travel?- I cannot remember their names now but the one was humming yellow submarine to Bree. They were from the 60's so that was even after Claire's time.

It was not Roger humming yellow submarine it was the traveler Claire met in the states

At least we don't have long to wait to read the next book. Some of these questions might be answered.

Who's going to start reading immediately?

Cait wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "Cait wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "Don't read this spoiler if you haven't read all the books out yet. Including ALITWOAH and TSB.

[spoilers]



I'm not sure it's clear that everyone..."

Spoiler from Diana's website....
http://www.dianagabaldon.com/resource...
(view spoiler)[


Who/what is Master Raymond? What is his significance? (SPOILER)

Well, he’s a prehistoric time traveler. I think he came from somewhere about 400 BC or perhaps a bit earlier (not technically “prehistoric,” but they certainly weren’t using written records where he started out), and the 18th century is not his first stop.

He is–or was–a shaman, born with the ability to heal through empathy. He sees auras plainly; those with his power all have the blue light he has–born warriors, on the other hand, are red (so yes, “the red man” is iconic). He has a rather strong aversion to Vikings, owing to events that happened in his own time; hence his nervousness when he sees Jamie. He’s afraid of them, but he also realizes just what a strong life-force they have–that’s why he makes Claire invoke it (using the sexual and emotional link between her and Jamie) to heal her.

His descendants–a few of whom he meets now and then in his travels–have the blue light about them, too; in large degree or small, depending on their talents. So he knows Claire, when he sees her, as one of his great-great, etc. grand-daughters. And Gillian/Geillis is another–you notice she has Claire’s sense of plants, though she tends naturally to poison, rather than medicines.

We’ll see him again–though not in Jamie and Claire’s story, I don’t think. Master Raymond should get his own series of books, eventually. So in fact, we’ll see Claire, Jamie, and Geillis again, then– but as secondary characters in Master Raymond’s story (you recall, Geillis mentions having met “one other” (time-traveler) in Voyager, but doesn’t tell Claire who it is).

Heaven knows just when we’ll get to that–in about ten years, at this rate–but we will get to it. {grin}
<\spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

Mrsbooks wrote: "At least we don't have long to wait to read the next book. Some of these questions might be answered.

Who's going to start reading immediately?"

I'm getting both the kindle version and the audiobook - I'll probably start listening - but its superlong...so i'll be able to draw out the enjoyment of the book

Diane wrote: "Also wasn't he the person that was teaching the Native American boys how to travel?- I cannot remember their names now but the one was humming yellow submarine to Bree. They were from the 60's so t..."

Since I've just finished rereading ABOSAA, I know the answer to this one! Wendigo Donner is the time-traveler Indian from '68 who was whistling or humming Yellow Submarine to see if Bree recognized the tune.

I plan to read MOBY as soon as I get my hands on it! I'm getting it in hardcover (for signature) and in audio. Later, will at the ebook to my kindle to join the rest :)

Yes Wendingo was the one humming but wasn't his teacher back in his own time Raymond? The one that helped Wendingo's group to travel.

It's hinted that way, yeah.

Yeah, and Claire asked Donner what Raymond looked like by space cadet-Donner didn't remember. Darn it. But what a coincidence. I'm thinking it HAS to be our Raymond. But I don't get why he was willing to send people like Donner back in time to possibly do damage or most likely killed for being so ill-prepared.

I've just read all the comments here about Rev. Wakefield and had really never given much thought before now to how much he knew or didn't know about James Fraser. I had thought he only did research on his own family history and did a bit for Frank at Frank's request. I WAS surprised that Rev. Wakefield followed through on having that fake tombstone placed, thinking it was unethical. But glad he did, otherwise Claire wouldn't had seen it and eventually learn about Jamie's true fate. *sigh* Why couldn't Frank or Rev. Wakefield discover where Jamie Fraser's real tombstone is located? Or do you think they did but it's not written down or the notes hadn't been discovered yet by Roger while looking through all of Rev. Wakefield's papers?

In the kind of mixed up time line that would exist in time travel, Raymond may have been younger and more irresponsible in the time he sent Wendingo and his gang back, than he was in the time when Claire first met him.

If Raymond is the same guy, and he probably is where its been hinted at...I don't understand why Donner didn't remember what he looked like. Raymond is barely over 4 feet if I remember correctly and looks like a frog! His height alone should have been memorable and made him easy to identify.

Because of the possible time lines, I've already been thinking that Raymond went to the future (Clare's time) after he met her.

Archiving due to already having a thread for Raymond.