Going to Meet the Man discussion

The Rockpile
The Outing
The Man Child
Previous Condition
Sonny's Blues
This Morning, This Evening, So Soon
Come Out of the Wilderness
Going to Meet the Man

continuing the conversation from the previous thread: ok, i'll read one or two in the afternoon :)

The Rockpile

(view spoiler)[
We are with John's family again, we had the same scene different perspective in Go Tell It on the Mountain. The father's violence and anger and ugly remarks and Elizabeth's fear and protectiveness are so vivid here. I was afraid of John being so near his father's foot.


The contrast between staying safe, innocent upstairs and living, hurting, laughing, sinning on the street and then upstairs is no longer so safe. So what to choose safety or life? (hide spoiler)]

Yes it's different after reading the biography :D

Haven't started yet. I'm listening to the audiobook The Remains of the Day and it's fantastic!

I've just checked that out and their is an Anthony Hopkins film - I've asked The Provider to provide as it looks like a good one.

I watched an episodes of the Sopranos last night where Carmela was watching this movie with Anthony Hopkins: D

ETA: I thought the movie was very good.

:D always ready for recs. What did you think of it?

I must have been editing my comment above to say it was a very good movie at the same time you were typing yours :)

I don't remember many details but both Hopkins and Emma Thompson were brilliant in it. I'll watch it again after I finish the book.

I'll tell you how it goes.

The Outing(view spoiler)[lost amongst the the saints rhetoric certain moments stand out, the hurt and the anger between Johnnie and Deacon his father. How the Deacon is so big with Johnnie but so small with Father James, like with Johnnie he is making up for how small inept he feels. So this us one of the ugly side effects that Baldwin speaks of.

Also Johnnie and David, the hurt begins and i saw Baldwin's future and am sad. There is always this conflict between accepting what is and wishing for different, for more. (hide spoiler)]

I can read another story later but if you want to do these today, i have other stuff to read and can stop here for today.

Goid morning and good Sunday Maya : D

morning :)

Yes, please wait for me. I still haven't read anything.
There was a leak from my bathroom to the apartment below me yesterday so I had to find a plumber yesterday and now he's here and I don't know how long it will take to fix and for me to clean afterwards. Ugh. :(

Oh I'm sorry it's a bad weekend for you. Happy that the the plumber came though and you can work on the solution. Bloody leaks.

I'll wait no worries as I want to talk to you when I'm reading these :) I'll catch up on my other stuff.

Sofia wrote: "The Rockpile


We are with John's family again, we had the same scene different perspective in Go Tell It on the Mountain. The father's violence and anger and ugly remarks and Elizabe..."

Just read this one. Yes, that's my interpretation as well - the choice between watching from a distance or throwing yourself in the dangers of life.

Wasn't there a scene in Go Tell in On the Mountain when Roy was hurt and Johnnie suffered the consequences of his father's anger? But I think in that scene someone had cut him with a knife in a fight.

Why do you think Gabriel looked with such hatred at Elizabeth in the end? Was it because she told him that's no way to raise a child? Obviously Gabriel was spoiling Roy because he was his firstborn son, so I thought he hated her for the way she favored Johnnie too.

Sofia wrote: "Oh I'm sorry it's a bad weekend for you. Happy that the the plumber came though and you can work on the solution. Bloody leaks.

I'll wait no worries as I want to talk to you when I'm reading these..."

He promised to be done soon but then i'll be left with all the mess to clean. Oh well, what can I do, these things happen.

The Outing - this one made me very sad. Peace became panic, safety became danger - I understood that as Johnnie realizing what his true feelings for David were just at the moment David started to consider his future "salvation" to please Sylvia.

I really liked Roy in the two stories so far. He dares to challenge Gabriel and has found a way to both please his father and to do what he wants. Brave boy. Johnnie in contrast is paralyzed by fear.

I wonder what the river symbolized on that journey. Now that I know nothing is just one thing in JB's stories I'm looking for symbolism in everything.

I'd love to read one more later tonight. Will you have time?

Yes I have time let's do another one.

I think Roy was younger than Johnnie and he was David's firstborn from Elizabeth named after the his firstborn who died down South. David did look down on Elizabeth a bit, maybe he felt grand that he had 'saved' her and he would not tolerate her telling him off then. Furthermore I think somewhere Baldwin said that the fact that he could not provide very well for his family made him more angry. I did think that this was the scene when Roy was hurt in Go Tell it to the Mountain because it was set exactly like it but from a different perspective. The sofa, the bandage, the cries. I'll go check :D

The Outing - I like Roy too, He did have it easier with David though. I don't know what the river means either - could be life going on with or without us.

I hope the plumber has finished and that you're finished too.

yes, the river is probably the life flowing on its way, out of their control. No wonder he described it as dark and indifferent. Also the boy who drowned in it in the first story ...

I checked in Go Tell It on the Mountain - Roy (Royal) was stabbed there.

In the foreword to this book it's said that Outing was published in 1951 in some magazine. That's 2 years before GTotM and he probably changed some things in the novel to fit his ideas.

Plumber is done for today, will have to come back one more time to close one small opening in the wall as he had another appointment to rush to.

Seeing these short stories gives me an idea of how he wrote. That he had lots of backstory behind the final version offered to the readers.

Glad about the works, enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

The Man Child

(view spoiler)[That one was terrifying. The way I saw it Jamie was in love with Eric's father and it was a story about the denial of love. But the murder of the kid was too much for me.

I mean, Giovanni also killed a man in his desperation and anger but an innocent kid ... (hide spoiler)]

still thinking about the third story:
(view spoiler)[don't you think it's ominous how JB made the transition from Johnnie's feelings in the second story to Jamie in the third story? He's scaring me. (hide spoiler)]

I had the mistaken impression that this was Eric of Another Country so I couldn't believe the end.

I think that Jamie and Eric's father had an imtimate relationship which drove away Jamie's wife, 'killed' Eric's mother, murdered Eric.

Baldwin's may be showing what lying leads too. The illusion that real men must lead certain lives like David in Giovanni's Room and how this destroys everything.

Chilling imaging David and Johnnie instead of Jamie and Eric's father which they well could be. I see why Baldwin insists on the no lies.

yes, I remember his view on what being 'manly' means. But here I think it was not just that. Eric's father wanted to leave a legacy - working this land for his son seemed to be something of real importance to him, not just the idea of having a family because it was the right thing to do.

I think Jamie's love was unrequited.

I agree that the land, the legacy were all tied up with family, being a man, having a wife and children to give the legacy to.

So let's say that the relationship was intimate, reciprocated, then Jamie would never ever come first because the legacy and what Eric's father must do for it would win.

Any which way whether intimate or not all this must have frustrated, angered Jaime and led to that horrible end.

I wonder if something happened to Eric's Mum before she lost her third baby.

If we were to look for symbolism I'd say it would be Man living as himself (no lies) against Man living as per society dictates and then we have the resultant catastrophy, killing of purity the child.

I better go to sleep now, good night Maya :)

I think the mother lost the baby because of health reasons. But she either knew or sensed what was going on with Jamie and that's why she was so worried when Eric was late.

Goodmorning Maya

Shall we do another later?

Yes, i was just thinking to start the fourth one.

Are you having a busy day? I have one meeting in the afternoon but other than that nothing urgent for me today.

It's a busy day in a busy month (end of year, beginning of new year) etc...

I read Previous Condition during my break

(view spoiler)[I just heard the news of David Bowie's death and I was sad about that and then I read this and I'm more sad. Peter reminds me of Rufus. Tired and lost and angry and scared. I get how he gets angry at when people try to console. We talked about this before. On the other hand what can Ida or Jules do more. This makes me more sad and angry really seeing the conflict between the hurt and those that try to help, angry at the situation. (hide spoiler)]

Hopefully I can do another later, but let me know from your end.

Previous Condition: The man without a story, without a place - something Baldwin talked about a lot. I agree Peter seems to be an earlier version of Rufus - angry and lost, the love of his friends not enough.

i saw the news of Bowie's death this morning too :(

Yes, let's read one more today.

Ok will do later - I'm still fighting with numbers :)

it will be tonight for me too.

I just looked back in the biography - Previous Condition was the first fiction he ever published, it was in 1948 just before he left for Paris and after the years he struggled to become an artist in the Village. And Peter was him reaching the end of the line.

he pictures this very well then. His saying that it was either leave or die, I can see that in Peter

I keep thinking of Previous Condition - somehow it keeps bringing Hunger to mind.

Sofia wrote: "I keep thinking of Previous Condition - somehow it keeps bringing Hunger to mind."

moved up to my 'Next' list.

:D

Sonny's Blues - (view spoiler)[the struggles of the artist, his heightened sensibility and the need for his voice to be heard. Again I can see JB here, in Sonny.

I think the ending of this one felt a bit optimistic for a change. Sonny fully revealed himself in front of his brother, and his brother saw and understood.

Throughout the story JB was saying how every generation of kids in the ghetto get to live exactly the same life as their parents did, and yet when Sonny played and his brother thought how this music held the key to the freedom I thought it was an almost happy ending. (hide spoiler)]

but also
(view spoiler)[
Freedom lurked around us and I understood, at last, that he could help us to be free if we would listen, that he would never be free until we did.

sad because Sonny's life would always be like that. Like JB he had a mission. (hide spoiler)]

I really liked this. That bit about each of us choosing what we think would help us in our suffering and that we all suffer and we all try to avoid it. This bit reminded me of You Are Not a Stranger Here and maybe now i understand that title better. We are all in the same boat.

That bit about doing what we want to do rather what we think is our duty. I was brought up with duty first so i do need this other perspective, that it is ok to do what you want/need to do, that it is ok.

I see Jimmy in Sonny too. I think witnessing to Jimmy is not just about the black/white question but much bigger, he is there to mirror us all in our lives with all our suffering and our joys.

Another one later, i like the gap in between as i keep thinking about them, savouring the blues :)

yes, it has similarities with Hasslet's stories because it's about understanding and compassion.

I loved that when they went to the bar Sonny's brother observed that the other musicians were Sonny's family and he was just a visitor. But by the end he and Sonny were familiy again. Maybe not everyone has heard Sonny's blues yet but he did and that mattered.

Sonny was able to say with the piano what he was not able to say in words and his brother saw him.

I think we miss a lot if we 'see' the words only as not everybody is able to talk the same way.

I read a bit of the next story - This Morning, This Evening, So Soon.
And surprise! It has humor in it.
But i don't know if i can laugh because i expect JB to hit me with something even worse than the previous stories now that he's used humor for the first time in this collection.

Ok that's interesting - have to see. I promised myself to do more breaks today as my neck is killing me, so I'll start it soon :)

This Morning, This Evening, So Soon - my favorite story in the collection so far.

(view spoiler)[I think this was JB's idea of abandoning the safety and diving into the danger - it's clear the lives of his wife and of little Pauli will not be as comfortable in America as in Paris. But like the other black artists in JB's stories Pete had to make his art visible in America.

But what made me love this story so much was the fact that there wasn't a villain in it (well, accept America). All characters were good people, perhaps even a little idealized. The young African-Americans he meets in the evening didn't treat Boona the way they've been treated by the whites in America (guilty by default). And I think that's why Pete feels so cheerful in the end.

For me this was a story of hope. (hide spoiler)]

ouch, what happened to the neck?
I think you need a vacation, you work too much.

Neck - computer strain. I'd love a holiday but Jan is one of our busiest months. Trying to remember to get up from my pc frequently.

I think with this one JB used different language because Chico is in a better place, so the problems are different. I like that the kids kept the faith. I also liked that bit where he said that Harriet built a foundation for her son, where he can build and rebuild if need be. Love that image.

There is a poem called City by Cavafy which says that we cannot escape where we were brought up, our culture. Our city is with us always. I kept thinking of it when reading Jimmy's book and now in this story.

Good morning Maya

Read Call of the Wilderness before going to work.

(view spoiler)[ everyone feels lost and alone in this one. Mr Davis represented hope but i don't know. It feels kind of mercenary to want aruth to grab happy with him without wanting him. (hide spoiler)]

The last one later after work. Have a nice day ,:)

Morning :)

I'll try to read the last two stories today too.

Is the neck better?

better because I went to early last night. I just have to keep from overdoing (which is hard :P)

Come out of the Wilderness - the way i understood it it was how Paul not being able to love Ruth affected her. The memories it brought, the unexplainable guilt that has always been with her because of her skin color.
I think Mr Davis represented hope because she sensed she could have a safe life with him - house, children; nothing in him would evoke the negative feelings Pauld did. But she also wouldnt be in love.

huh, why have i called the character from the previous stroy Pete - i have no idea. He didnt have a name, right?