On Paths Unknown discussion

Hello, all. Here is a clock in thread for Smilla's Sense of Snow.

Our schedule is so hectic, that it's touch and go to keep up - will start posting here soon - hopefully later today - apologies for the delay!

Traveller wrote: "Our schedule is so hectic, that it's touch and go to keep up - will start posting here soon - hopefully later today - apologies for the delay!"

No matter, I haven't started reading it yet.

The first few interesting things about the book, is that it's written by a male writer with a female as his first-person protagonist, which so far, I think he's doing rather well, or what do the rest of you think?

It's starts in Copenhagen, Denmark, but the protagonist hails from Greenland, and apparently one of the aspects of the novel, is that we get a bit of socio-historical background around the Greenland Innuit and so forth.

I'm not there yet, but I like the setting of the stage so far, with how Smilla is talking about all the various manifestations of ice and snow, and the quality of the long long winter night in Scandinavia- how the snow makes everything much brighter than you would expect it to be. Maybe some input from Ruth and any other Scandinavians around here? Plus about "frazil ice"? There was something else rather unusual that Smilla mentioned about the snow that I'd wanted to ask about while reading on my tablet, but I can't find it right now.

The story is not in chronological order - the first chapter starts with Isaiha's funeral, then works back to when his body was found in the next chapter.

Oh, and Derek, I'm sure you would be familiar with the infinite rooms in the hotel scenario, but I'm sure I saw it mentioned in a slightly different form in a different context. (A maths context).

I read it twice and watched the film :) which I recommend as well. Let me find my copy to make I don't cross into a later chapter

Fazil ice ... let me see if I can post a picture http://summitvoice.files.wordpress.co...

Nope, can't, but there are some cool videos. Google "frazil ice video".

I'm starting chapter 3 now. What a tragic beginning, all the descriptions of snow and ice. Snow is a very, very rare thing in South Africa so I'm always fascinated by it.

During one or two cold winters it has snowed lightly, but I have never seen heavy snow in my life. This is why, when it actually snows like it did two or more years back, can't remember exactly, you will see people on social media posting pictures of it because to us it is a phenomenon ;)

Ruth wrote: "Fazil ice ... let me see if I can post a picture http://summitvoice.files.wordpress.co..."

Wow, that looks dangerous.

Traveller wrote: "The first few interesting things about the book, is that it's written by a male writer with a female as his first-person protagonist, which so far, I think he's doing rather well, or what do the rest of you think?"

That struck me immediately, but of course I'm of the wrong gender to really know if he did it well, but he seemed to.

Traveller wrote: "Oh, and Derek, I'm sure you would be familiar with the infinite rooms in the hotel scenario, but I'm sure I saw it mentioned in a slightly different form in a different context. (A maths context)."

I wouldn't be surprised, it has lots of mathematical implications, but I'm not sure what you're thinking of.

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Oh, and Derek, I'm sure you would be familiar with the infinite rooms in the hotel scenario, but I'm sure I saw it mentioned in a slightly different form in a different context. (A maths context)."

I wouldn't be surprised, it has lots of mathematical implications, but I'm not sure what you're thinking of. .."

Okay, well... if the number of rooms is infinite, wouldn't that imply... hmm. Well, then... see I kind of instinctively feel that there shouldn't be a number 1, that it should be infinite in both directions, but ... well, anyway, if its infinite, then how can it be full - then where does the infinite number of people come from that made it 'full"? There seem to be contradictions in it. I need someone more into maths to help me formulate what I'm trying to say here...

Ah, but there's different types of infinity. The set of all "Natural Numbers" is integers 1→∞. It's a countable infinity. The set of Real numbers (-∞ < 0.0 < ∞) is an uncountable infinity, because for any two real numbers you choose, there are an infinite number of real numbers between them.

For a countable infinity, S, there's always an infinite subset S1 such that S - S1 is a finite set.

But if you can have an infinite hotel with an infinite (and countable) number of rooms, I don't see a problem finding an infinite number of people to fill them. "There are more things in heaven and earth … Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Shakespeare had it figured out.

Sorry to barge in here. It's true that the set of Real Numbers is uncountable, but not for the reason mentioned, because, for instance the set of Fractional numbers has the same property (there are an infinite number of Fractions between any two fractions), and Fractions are countable too. It was Cantor who proved that there is a kind of infinite which is more than countable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor&...

As for (Hilbert's) Hotel Paradox:
The number of rooms is infinite, but countable. There are rooms 1,2,3,... and each one has a guest in it. So one can say the hotel is occupied. But you can easily make room for another guest by "shifting" each guest simultaneously to the next room. 1->2, 2->3, 3->4 ... and so on. After that room #1 remains empty and a new guest can move in there. The paradox lies in the fact that you can take away a finite set of numbers from a (countable) infinite set and the remaining set is still (countable) infinite.
For instance the set of all even numbers 2,4,6,8,... is "just as infinite" as the set of all number 1,2,3,4...
HTH

Okay, this is the part where my mind boggles, though: (and I realize you've explained it, but....) if there's an infinite set of room and an infinite set of people, so much so, that each room is filled - doesn't that then imply that the one infinite set (people) = the other infinite set (rooms) , so that if you moved them all up, then there should now theoretically be a person who had a room, who now doesn't have a room.
I realize that the nature of the paradox makes that since the number is infinite, you probably won't be able to identify the now roomless person - but that's what frustrates me so much, because it feels like there should now be a de-roomed person, a person who had lost his room because of this new addition.

Matt wrote: "The paradox lies in the fact that you can take away a finite set of numbers from a (countable) infinite set and the remaining set is still (countable) infinite."

I said that -- inasmuch as as addition and subtraction are associative and commutative :-)

I confess, I would have said that fractions were an uncountable infinity too. I can't see how you can put the set of Rational number in one-to-one correspondence with Natural numbers. However, wikipedia says they're countable (though without justification), and who am I to argue with wikipedia!

OK, I guess wikipedia doesn't need to justify their countability, it follows from the formal definition (view spoiler)[(The rational numbers can be formally defined as the equivalence classes of the quotient set (Z × (Z \ {0})) / ~, where the cartesian product Z × (Z \ {0}) is the set of all ordered pairs (m,n) where m and n are integers) (hide spoiler)] ;-)

btw, I see the reason for the two different english titles, Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow and Smilla's Sense of Snow is another case of multiple translators.

... or is it!

The former would appear to be translated by a native English speaker, and the latter by a Dane, but it turns out that Tiina Nunnally is an American and for reasons unknown she sometimes uses the name Felicity David (as far as GR knows, apparently just for this and some of Karin Fossum's books.

Traveller wrote: "you probably won't be able to identify the now roomless person - but that's what frustrates me so much, because it feels like there should not be a de-roomed person, a person who had lost his room because of this new addition."

Like a person who falls off at the end of the hotel? ;-) Fortunately there isn't such a person, because there is no end to infinity.
I find the example not very good, because we all now that there will never be a hotel with an infinite number of rooms and neither will there ever be an infinite number of persons. So the paradox is counter-intuitive to begin with.

In fact there is no infinity anywhere in nature. The time the universe existed so far is finite, and so is the number of particles in it. The concept of infinity applies only to the abstract world of mathematics. Even the number of books in Borge's library is finite (albeit very very large).

Maybe it's easier to imagine the scenario using functions. Let R be a function that gives the room for a person x.
R(x) = Room number of x
At the beginning we have R(x)=x, if we count the persons and the rooms the same way. Each person is in their respective room.
After the shift we have
R(x) = x + 1
Now we see that there is no person y that satisfies the equation R(y) = 1, hence room #1 has become empty.

Let's expand the situation and (with the hotel occupied as before) let a (countable) infinite number of new guests arrive. We even could satisfy the demand for empty rooms in this case, if we let the current guest move to the resp room that has the number 2*x:
R(x) = 2 * x
Now rooms 1,3,5,7,... (infinitely many) have become empty, and provide room for the new (infinitely many) guests.

Yes, I saw that she uses at least one alias and wondered why...

But listen here, guys. If a number is infinite, how can you detract another number from it? I mean What is infinity minus 1? What is infinity minus 10, for that matter? <_<

EDIT: Ah, okay, thanks, Matt - we must have posted at the same time. I think after your post #17 I feel more satisfied about the matter. (Posted the above lament before I saw your post # 17).

Traveller wrote: " one infinite set (people) = the other infinite set (rooms) "

This is where you go astray. ∞ ≠ ∞ Or, in the vernacular, "they're the same but different"!

Traveller wrote: "What is infinity minus 1? What is infinity minus 10, for that matter"

Infinity is not a number, so you cannot subtract from it. To me infinity is a concept to describe the cardinality of sets. If a set is infinite you can take away any finite number of elements, and the resulting set is still infinite.

'Smilla's Sense of Snow' is to me a much more satisfying title than the other one.

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Traveller wrote: " one infinite set (people) = the other infinite set (rooms) "

This is where you go astray. ∞ ≠ ∞ Or, in the vernacular, "they're the same but different"!"

Sure, but for me, the clue lay not in the tag that they are both infinite, but that each room was occupied by a person and that each person occupied a room - if you look at it from that angle and ignore the "infinite" tag, do you then see why it frustrated me? Because if each room was already occupied, then there is no additional room to move on into, even if the line is infinite- because the property of every single room in that (infinite) line is that it is already filled with a person.

And that's where Matt's point about infinity not existing in nature is important ;-) [though that's a little debatable—the universe is unbounded: does that make it infinite?]

A question I would ask, is: Could infinity possibly / does infinity exist in reality, or is it just a human-made abstract concept that we use because it is useful in the discipline of mathematics. It almost seems to me as if that might be the gist of what Matt was pointing out?

..and your q fit in with that, Derek.

I'll let Albert Einstein answer this question:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/sear...

LOL, well-said! :D

Here's the Wikipedia link for (Hilbert's) Hotel Paradox thatMatt mentioned earlier:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert...

Thanks Ruth. Interesting, also, that Isaiah and Smilla's association starts over Euclid's Elements . I have a feeling maths is a theme that runs through the book?

Oh hey, look what I found when I was looking for Rasmus Klump on the Ice Cap ! http://www.bookdrum.com/books/miss-sm...

Well! No wonder Miss Smilla has a rather special sense for or feeling for snow: He mother's people have the following words for snow:
Inuktitut words for snow

aaniuvak 'perpetual snow patch
aksakaaqtuq 'snowball'
aluiqqaniq 'overhanging snow'
alutsiniq 'deep snow hollow'
aniu 'snow for drinking'
apijuq 'covered with snow'
apigianngaut 'first snow'
apilraun/apilraut 'firs layer of snow'
apun/aput 'snow on the ground'
apujjaqsuqtuq 'digs it out of the snow'
aputainnaruuvuq 'has much snow on clothes'
apusialukpuq 'covered with a lot of snow'
apusimatiqtuq 'snow storming'
apusimiriikkusijuq 'has placed it on top of snow covered'
apummiungujut 'tent on snow'
aputisiut ;used for snow/snow-probe/knife'
aqilluqqaq 'soft under crust snow'
atairranaqtuq 'squeaky snow'
autturunniq 'snow pressed melted frozen'
aujaqsuittuq 'eternal snow'
auviq/savuujaqtuaq/qulluaqtuq 'snow block'
igluvijaq 'snow house'
ijaruajuq 'snow in the eye'
ijaruvak 'new soft snow (which has packed)'
illaujait 'dark ice'
illaujiniq 'candle'
illiti 'vertical snow house wall'
immiugaq 'ice water'
immiuqtuq 'ice melts'
immiugainnaatuq 'snow water'
ivrarniq 'moderately soft snow'
ivunrit 'piled ice'
ivvuit 'rough ice'
kakkikulivuq 'wind blows snow'
kanangnaq 'snow wind'
kapuqqalukpuq 'look for snow house'
kapuraq 'test the snow'
kalirraq 'sound of sled in snow'
kaniqtuq 'ice crystal fall'
kavisilaq 'roughened snow'
kijjiqpuq 'snow house drips'
kiniq 'viscous snow'
kiniqtaq 'viscous mixture of snow and water'
kusugaq 'icicle'
kuvvisiq 'sprinkles new snow'
makkaq 'snow house dome'
mannguktuq 'melting snow'
mannguuktiqtuq 'stuck in melting snow'
manngumaaqsijuq 'walk in soft snow'
makpattuq 'snow becomes flat'
maqpakitigaq 'snow blocks cut horizontally'
masak 'slush'
matsaaq 'half melting snow'
masangnaqsijuq 'wet snow'
maujaq 'deep snow'
mimiqpaaq 'knob on rod to search for snow house snow'
misaliraq 'snow and water mixed'
muranaq/muruiniq 'soft ground or snow'
murjuniq 'mixture of water and ice'
naannguaq 'snow mound'
nataqqurnaq 'sleet'
natiruviaktuq 'ground drifting'
nilak 'freshwater ice'
nilaruvak 'snow marbles'
ninniq 'pile snow'
niummak 'deep soft newly-fallen snow'
nutigiikkut 'something to prevent the snow from getting a burnt taste'
patuktuq 'ice crystal'
piiqsiliqtuq 'beginning to snow'
piiqturiniqtaataq 'ligh snow'
piqsiqtuq 'snow blowing/blizzard'
piqtuluk 'blowing snow'
puikkangajuq 'salt on snow'
pukaq 'uniformly soft snow'
pukak 'sugar snow'
pukajaaq 'granular/crystallized snow'
pukaingajuq 'harder but breakable snow'
qairniq 'flat ice'
qaniktuq 'SNOW/falling snow'
qanikkuk 'wet falling snow'
qaniaraq 'light falling snow'
qaniut 'fully snow/on the ground snow'
qanniapiktuq 'snow flurry'
qanniqtuq 'snow fall'
qannitaijaqtuq 'snow removed'
qaquviraq 'snow house roof'
qarruaq 'soft snow'
qilaktittuq 'soft snow
qilatirinaq 'snow house roof hole'
qillaaniq 'sparking snow'
qimugjuk 'snow drift/shaped snow'
qingainnguq 'brilliant ice crystals falling'
qiqirrituq 'snow squeaky once'
qiqumaaq 'snow with frozen surface'
qiqsuqaq glazed snow in thaw time
qiqsuqaktuq 'Snow crusted'
qukaarnaqtuq 'Light snow is made of small flakes or crystals of snow'
quasaq 'glare ice'
quna 'slush ice'
saligaq 'fashion snow blocks'
salittutuq 'thin block for snow'
sapgut 'rod with rounded end for testing snow for snow house'
sapgusaqtuq 'test snow with snow rod'
siiminnasiuqtuq 'sled catches on hard snow'
siku 'ice'
sikuliaq 'youngest ice'
siqumniq 'ice pan/broken ice'
sikuuttuq/immiugaksaq 'freshwater ice'
sisuuq 'avalanche'
sisaguqpaa 'compress snow'
sitilluqqaq 'harder packed snow'
taluaq 'snow screen'
tammaaqaaqtuq 'new snow house (and feels cold)'
tiluttuut 'snow rod'
tugaliaq 'ice house'
tugu 'shore ice'
tukiqsinilijuq 'harden snow into ice'
tullaaliuqpuq 'make snow house with trodden snow '
tuvaq 'ice floe/shorefast ce'
tuvaruqpuq 'ice is thick'
turuuq 'ice chiseler'
uqalujaq 'snow lump'
uqaluraq 'tongue-like snow drift'
uqqusiiqtutuq 'flurry of hail/snow'

This had to come up... somebody once said Eskimos have forty words for snow, and now you can't kill the myth with a harpoon.

It's in the nature of agglutinative languages that they have a lot of words for everything.

My linguistics is far weaker than my mathematics, but that looks like no more than about ten root words with a lot of suffixes and prefixes.

And what's "yellow snow"? That's the most important one I know.

Some of these descriptions I have definitely heard my neighbors use, for example the kind of snow a sled catches on, crystal snow, snow with a frozen (or crusted) surface, wet falling snow, sugar snow, dark (black) ice, snow pressed melted frozen, squeaky snow, and one I didn't see here, crackly snow.

Was qillaaniq 'sparking snow' really 'sparking', or should it have been sparkling? I ask because both make sense. 'Spark' is a Swedish work meaning kick but it is also the word for a sled sometimes called in English a 'kick sled'. So 'sparking snow' could be that snow that is best for using a 'spark'.

Interesting. :)

Anyway, I love how Smilla loves her maths.
"Then there is the feeling that always comes over me at the mere thought of that book: veneration. The knowledge that it is the foundation, the boundary. That if you work your way backwards, past Lobachevsky and Newton and as far back as you can go, you end up at Euclid.

Next thread here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I found myself wondering what Smilla's voice would sound like. Is it silky? Is it smoldering? Is it reedy? Does it inspire confidence? Safety? Desire? What would Euclid's Elements sound like in Danish? Or was it Greenlandic? What quality of it made Isaiah sit still for so long, rapt? I am very curious.

She's obviously a very practical person, but she's also embued with her fair share of empathy, and a sense of justice. A very interesting combination.

I very much doubt there's a version of Euclid's Elements in Greenlandic, or any of the Inuit languages. Just not a large enough audience. I studied math in university (got kicked out...) and I haven't read it. Consider that there are 100,000 Inuit speakers in the world, of which generously maybe 2,000 might have that kind of interest in mathematics. Every one of those 2,000 has already had to learn English or French or Danish. Similarly, only a century ago, English mathematicians would have read Euclid in Greek.

As for the voice, I've always had the feeling that it would be pretty much "none of the above". Gravelly and unharmonious! That and geometry should be enough to attract any young child.

Interesting observation, Derek. I've been meaning to look up the author's ethnicity.

As for the attraction for Isaiah , I suspect there must be a sort of mystery to Euclid, like secrets explored, and then of course, Smilla's passion for it, and the fact that they're both Greenlanders and that he's an outsider like her, but also, lonely.

"When… Greenlanders began arriving in Denmark… one of the first things they wrote home was that Danes are such pigs: they keep dogs in their houses."

That seems like a very odd thing to say. It's a prevalent attitude from various peoples of tropical lands, because feral dogs live off garbage, but I find it hard to imagine that Greenland has ever supported a feral dog population, and sled dogs aren't kept outside because they're unclean, but because they don't tolerate warmth! (not to mention that they take up quite a lot of room).

Yeah, I also wondered at that, and thought that perhaps "pigs" was meant in the sense not of uncleanliness, but rather unkindness, because of the fact that the dogs would suffer from the heat in houses.