The Sword and Laser discussion

There seems to be a consensus that Sword should be skipped entirely and those interested in this series should go straight to the second book. The show runners at MTV agreed. While I'd give the same advice myself, if I were on the flips idea, something in my nature strongly objects to jumping into the middle of a series!

So to those who haven't read the books and have decided to skip this month's selection based on the reputation, would you have read Elfstones if that was the pick? And can any who have already read the series throw their support behind reading SoS first?

Since I read Sword a long time ago and dismissed it and the whole series as a blatant LotR-retread... yes. Yes I would.

I have read them all. I actually read them before LotR and it was the SoS that got me into "adult" fantasy. This might not be the case here, but despite the first half being very LotR the book and world are wonderfully introduced and the villain in SoS is much more interesting/the sword actually being explained make this a good starting point. Is it the best book in the series, no, but it is a comfortable beginning to the series. This book will seem familiar and as such will either annoy-"That is so unoriginal" or allow a soft entrance into the favorite series of my high school years.

I read the first book a long time ago - if I remember correctly, the second book has related characters. I'd rather start again with the first book.

I haven't read Sword in 20 years so we'll see if it holds up for me, but I'm glad we're starting at the beginning of the series. The similarities never bothered me, and I'm a huge fan of Tolkien. I understand why some might want to skip it, and nothing against them, but I'm excited to read Sword again.

Can't really appreciate the second book without having first read book 1, in my opinion.

Kelli wrote: "The similarities never bothered me, and I'm a huge fan of Tolkien. "

And, of course, Tolkien did not invent elves etc :-)

Gaines wrote: "Kelli wrote: "The similarities never bothered me, and I'm a huge fan of Tolkien. "

And, of course, Tolkien did not invent elves etc :-)"

What?!? Blasphemy. ;)

:-p

The Elfstones of Shannara could be read without the first two. Terry Brooks no longer rips off Tolkien but switches to Peter S. Beagle.

I think you have to start to SoS, but then I think almost every series should be read in publication order (most obvious exception: Discworld, which has multiple threads, each of which should be read in publication order). I think MTV's adaptation (and from what I've seen they've made a number of major changes) starting with Elfstones is more about differentiation from LotR and including female characters. If you're talking about reading the books, I think there's just too much missed if you jump into the second book... character reactions that only make sense if you have the backstory.

I started with Elfstones back when I was 12 (my school library didn't have Sword), and went on to Wish-Song and the Heritage series before I finally tapped out of Shannara.

I did go back and read SoS in university, and kind of wished I hadn't. It's really not necessary: Elfstones, Wish-Song, and Scions give you all the backstory you really need for the story at hand. It's like how you don't really need to read The Hobbit to enjoy The Lord of the Rings, the only difference being The Hobbit is actually a good story by itself.

That said, SoS is important as a cultural touchstone, as the shape the entire fantasy genre takes today essentially starts with SoS' publication.

Gaines wrote: "Kelli wrote: "The similarities never bothered me, and I'm a huge fan of Tolkien. "

And, of course, Tolkien did not invent elves etc :-)"

No, but Tolkien changed them from the terrifying slavers and nightmarish baby-stealers of folklore (which you still see, for example, in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, published around the same time as Lord of the Rings) to forest-dwelling good-guy archers sitting in their enlightened sylvan kingdoms until roused to fight evil. Brooks and Gary Gygax ran with that and between Shannara and Dungeons & Dragons that's now the default definition of "elf" in the fantasy genre.

Joe Informatico wrote: "That said, SoS is important as a cultural touchstone, as the shape the entire fantasy genre takes today essentially starts with SoS' publication..."

Yeah, that's right. SoS did 30 years ago what Harry Potter did 10 years ago. It got a lot of younger readers into reading and sparked a revival.

Well, what happened with the TV show is that in order to make Elfstones being book 2 as the starting point, they had to change the plot points, especially the background of the 2 main characters. Imo this was because in part to fit better with MTV audience, and the other reason because of no back story to the world and characters and families that was part of the 1st book.

Also the TV show, try to emphasize more on the world is post apocalyptic, which was never planned till about 10 years ago. This because that is currently where MTV and YA audience like and treading.

I've been wanting to reread both books because of the show. I'm good with SoS being the pick.

Kevin wrote: "Also the TV show, try to emphasize more on the world is post apocalyptic, which was never planned till about 10 years ago."

It is made very clear early on in Sword of Shannara (Book 1 of the series), that this is post-apocalyptic and set in our world's future (2000 years +)
The show is just making it more clear. I like it, it gives the scenery a surreal aesthetic.

If the book were Elfstones of Shannara, I would probably re-read Sword before getting into Elfstones anyway.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Kevin wrote: "Also the TV show, try to emphasize more on the world is post apocalyptic, which was never planned till about 10 years ago."

It is made very clear early on in Sword of Shannara (Book ..."

That's interesting. I knew it was post-apocalyptic from reading some of the more rec not books, but didn't remember anything from the first few books in the series. I'm starting to feel excited to retread this so many years later to see how it reads.

Barbara wrote: "That's interesting. I knew it was post-apocalyptic from reading some of the more rec not books, but didn't remember anything from the first few books in the series."

Allanon does a lot of explaining about the wars that destroyed the world. It is never explicitly stated that it is "our" earth in the early works, but Terry Brooks does throw in enough clues to make it clear that it is. Of course later on he does make it 100% clear.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I like it, it gives the scenery a surreal aesthetic."

I agree ~ (view spoiler)[love seeing those moss-covered choppers and cars etc (hide spoiler)] :-) Somehow adds to the imaginativeness of the landscape.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Kevin wrote: "Also the TV show, try to emphasize more on the world is post apocalyptic, which was never planned till about 10 years ago."

It is made very clear early on in Sword of Shannara (Book ..."

Yeah, but he really never tried to connected till about 10 years ago.

Kevin wrote: "Yeah, but he really never tried to connected till about 10 years ago.."

I haven't read the recent ones. Does he actually name the warring countries that started the destruction of Earth?

The original trilogy was written in the Cold War era so it is implied it must be the US and USSR. Allanon mentions a retaliatory war, scientifically planned that lasts minutes. Which implied a (MAD) "Mutually Assured Destruction" nuclear war.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Kevin wrote: "Yeah, but he really never tried to connected till about 10 years ago.."

I haven't read the recent ones. Does he actually name the warring countries that started the destruction of Ea..."

Never really thought of the connection to the cold war. I don't know if he actually meant to do that/planned or was it just coincidence?

The original trilogy were released between 1977 & 1985. So he could only have been talking about a USA v USSR Global Nuclear War. Up until 1989 that was the biggest threat.

It is seen as less likely now. But things got pretty tense in the 70's and 80's. Not quite as bad as 1962 though.

I'll have to read a synopsis of the later works. I am interested to see who he made the opponents in a post cold war era world.

Richard wrote: "There seems to be a consensus that Sword should be skipped entirely and those interested in this series should go straight to the second book. The show runners at MTV agreed. While I'd give the sam..."

Where is the consensus that the first book should be skipped? Not disputing the statement just curious. I'd heard that some people think that but not that it was a general consensus.

One of the reasons we picked this book is that it was in the top of the Listopia for fantasy books. Elfstones was not.

Tassie Dave wrote: "It is seen as less likely now. But things got pretty tense in the 70's and 80's. Not quite as bad as 1962 though."

According to the Doomsday clock the risk has been steadily increasing since 1991. In 2015 they moved it back up to 23:57, the same as it was in 1984.

I don't get why the doomsday clock tries to account for both nuclear war and climate change, especially since its run by the Bulletin for Atomic Scientists. Seems to me that if you're looking at the odds of a nuclear war 2016 is a good time to move the clock back, but if you're looking at climate change it should already be past midnight. Why conflate the two unrelated things into one scale?

Kevin wrote: "Also the TV show, try to emphasize more on the world is post apocalyptic, which was never planned till about 10 years ago. This because that is currently where MTV and YA audience like and treading."

Actually SoS pretty clearly states that it takes place in our post-apocalyptic future.

Kevin wrote: "Never really thought of the connection to the cold war. I don't know if he actually meant to do that/planned or was it just coincidence? "

Back in the 1970s and 80s, the Cold War dominated EVERYTHING. We lived in constant fear that a nuclear war was going to break out at any minute.

Brendan wrote: "I don't get why the doomsday clock tries to account for both nuclear war and climate change, especially since its run by the Bulletin for Atomic Scientists. Seems to me that if you're looking at th..."

I believe they're taking the point of view the next big war will start because of climate change. If WWIII happens, it's going to be about water.

Also, is anyone else bugged by the typo in the thread title?

Trike wrote: "Also, is anyone else bugged by the typo in the thread title?"

Haha! I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out.

Tom wrote: "One of the reasons we picked this book is that it was in the top of the Listopia for fantasy books. "

I approve in general of regularly reading things off the Listopia. They tend to be the most popular stuff, and thus it helps when trying to cultivate in oneself a wide knowledge of the genre.

Moved to the correct discussion group.

And no, it's *shouldn't* have been picked because then I would have made some kind of mistake, and I'm not going to admit that here or anywhere.

:)

Brendan wrote: "if you're looking at climate change it should already be past midnight. Why conflate the two unrelated things into one scale?"

It can't be past midnight. Midnight is the end of civilisation as we know it.

Tom wrote: "Where is the consensus that the first book should be skipped? Not disputing the statement just curious. I'd heard that some people think that but not that it was a general consensus."

That was my takeaway reading reviews of the this book some months back. Calling it a consensus may have been an overstatement.

I was going to say, this question sounded an awful lot like treason and/or/schism/ and/or heresy w/r/t our Divinely Mandated Benevolent Sword and Laser Dictators.

I'll start by saying that I completely agree with reading "The Sword of Shannara" as the Book club pick. Never start a connected series mid-stream.

But having finished SOS and being 60% into Elfstones, I can see why people suggest skipping Sword and starting at Elfstones, If and only if, your reason for reading the books is because of the TV Show and you want to experience that story.

There are very few connections between "Sword" and the TV Show. Anything you need to know from Sword, which is not much, is explained in Elfstones.

But "Sword of Shannara" is a great stand alone book and should be read for itself. Then move on to Elfstones and Wishsong. Which is what I'm going to do. 30 years later they're still as good as I remembered them being.

Richard wrote: That was my takeaway reading reviews of the this book some months back. Calling it a consensus may have been an overstatement.

After I read SoS, I read the reviews and like you found that the consensus was that it was a weak first novel and that the best book in the series and he place to start was Elfstones, the second book.

So, I went and read Elfstones, wishing I had read the SoS reviews before getting into the series, and when I finished it I read the reviews for that book and the consensus there was that the first books are not that strong, he was just getting the handle of writing after all, but the best book in the series was Wishsong, the third book.

Well of course, I read Wishsong. I was eager to see why so many people love the series after all. And after I finished that book I went and read its reviews. The consensus there is that Wishsong isn't one of the best books in the series. Rather SoS and Elfstones are the strong books and this was the beginning of the decline.

And that is how far I read into the series.

Nah. Sword of Shannara is great. And I love the illustrations by the Brothers Hildebrandt. It's beautiful work. As I recall Elfstones didn't have any artwork interspersed within the book but Wishsong did. But Wishsong's art, while good, wasn't as high quality as Sword's.

Dwayne wrote: "Nah. Sword of Shannara is great. And I love the illustrations by the Brothers Hildebrandt. It's beautiful work. As I recall Elfstones didn't have any artwork interspersed within the book but Wishso..."

It did. Both Wishsong and Elfstone's artwork were done by Darrel K. Sweet who also did the cover art.

Kevin wrote: "Dwayne wrote: "Nah. Sword of Shannara is great. And I love the illustrations by the Brothers Hildebrandt. It's beautiful work. As I recall Elfstones didn't have any artwork interspersed within the ..."

Oh 'sweet'. Sorry. I couldn't resist. :P

@Kevin: "It is made very clear early on in Sword of Shannara"

Umm...where?

Fezfox wrote: "@Kevin: "It is made very clear early on in Sword of Shannara"

Umm...where?"

Deja Vu. I seem to remember answering this in another group on Goodreads. The fact the story takes place in a post-apocalyptic setting is revealed when Allanon speaks to Shea the morning after they first meet. It takes place under the shade tree at the rear of the inn if you want to get specific. Allanon talks to Shea about the Great Wars. To quote directly from the book:

"... the Great Wars brought an end to an age where Man alone was the dominant race. Man was almost completely destroyed and even the geography he had known was completely altered, completely restructured. Countries, nations, and governments all ceased to exist as the last members of the human race fled south to survive."

Allanon then goes on to talk about the genesis of the Dwarven race.

"Man also discovered that there was another race - a race of men who had fled beneath the earth to survive the effects of the Great Wars. Years of living in the huge caverns beneath the earth's crust away from the sunlight altered their appearance. They became short and stocky, powerful in the arms and chest, with strong, thick legs for climbing and scrambling underground.... When man first discovered remnants of this lost race, they called them Dwarfs, after a fictional race of the old days."

And this is all laid out around page 24 or so in the paperback. So yeah, we do find this out early in the book.

Yes, I read all of this, but whilst you *could* attach this to a post apocalyptic earth scenario, there's nothing there to specifically suggest it (not even some swirly whirly language like "man got so bold they harnessed the power of the stars, and burnt all they had created".

I get the feeling the "post earth-apocalypse" is a retcon by TB many years after SoS was published.

Fezfox wrote: "Yes, I read all of this, but whilst you *could* attach this to a post apocalyptic earth scenario, there's nothing there to specifically suggest it (not even some swirly whirly language like "man go..."

Fezfox wrote: "Yes, I read all of this, but whilst you *could* attach this to a post apocalyptic earth scenario, there's nothing there to specifically suggest it (not even some swirly whirly language like "man go..."

I admit it's little vague. But I don't agree that it's retcon at all. I picked up on this when I first read the novel over twenty years ago without any knowledge of the other novels that were available at the time. At the time, I had to read it a couple of times to make sure, but that's what I came away with right out of the gate. So either it's just clear enough for people to pick up on, or I'm a more astute reader than I give myself credit for.

Or you, like everyone, has Pareidolia ;)

fezfox wrote: "Or you, like everyone, has Pareidolia ;)"

I'm so tired of hearing that word. I really did see Tolkien's visage in my toast this morning! :P

fezfox wrote: "Yes, I read all of this, but whilst you *could* attach this to a post apocalyptic earth scenario, there's nothing there to specifically suggest it......I get the feeling the "post earth-apocalypse" is a retcon by TB many years after SoS was published. "

I think Nuclear Devastation is the only thing you can read into the following paragraphs from "Sword of Shannara" and my copy was printed in 1983 so this is not a retconned version.

Allanon. Chapter 9: (view spoiler)["Suddenly, so suddenly that few knew what happened, the entire world was enveloped in a series of retaliatory attacks by the different countries, all very scientifically planned and executed. In a matter of minutes, the science of thousands of years, the learning of centuries, culminated in an almost total destruction of life. The Great Wars. Very apt name. The power expended in those few minutes of battle not only succeeded in wiping out those thousands of years of human growth, but it also began a series of upheavals that completely altered the surface of the land. The initial force did most of the damage, killing every living thing over ninety percent of the earth, but the after effects carried on the alteration and extinction, breaking the continents apart, drying up oceans, making lands and seas uninhabitable for several hundred years. It should have been the end of life, perhaps the end of the world itself.....Remnants of the race of man managed to survive during the terrible period following the holocaust. (hide spoiler)]

He does also go on to relate the struggle to survive and rebuild the human race. If this is not post-apocalyptic, I don't know what is.