Classics for Beginners discussion

This is the discussion thread for our February group read, The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka.
This novella was published in 1915 and was originally written in German, there are plenty of translations of this critically acclaimed work, hope you guys have a good time reading and a better time discussing the book.
Cheers!

I plan to read with you. Got the text online, still want to finish one other book but should start about halfway next week. Looking forward!

im going to buy it this week, its going to be fun

I got it from the library, but want to finish two other books first.

I'll be joining also, but probably toward the latter part of the week.

Nina wrote: "I plan to read with you. Got the text online, still want to finish one other book but should start about halfway next week. Looking forward!"
I also read the kindle version, I will wait for your views, am sure this book will lead to certain interesting viewpoints too.
It's an intriguing novella.

Great to hear that Oscar, am sure it'll be worth the wait Emily.

RitaSkeeter wrote: "I'll be joining also, but probably toward the latter part of the week."
Its a very short read, but will keep you occupied for a longer time. Glad this was picked for the group read.

I'll be joining in too. I'm finishing off some books. Probably will join next week.

I wasn't planning to re-read this one, but ended up doing so over the weekend as it also fits the 2016 Ultimate challenge for "a book you read in high school." Even weirder and more depressing than I remembered.

I've read this before but will re-read with the group. I have it on kindle and also in a hardcover complete works of Kafka. The complete works of Kafka was on my 2016 reading list anyway.

I just received a dual-language version of this, along with other Kafka short stories, in the mail. I will probably begin reading this weekend.

Amanda wrote: "I'll be joining in too. I'm finishing off some books. Probably will join next week."
Join anytime you feel like Amanda.

Heather L wrote: "I wasn't planning to re-read this one, but ended up doing so over the weekend as it also fits the 2016 Ultimate challenge for "a book you read in high school." Even weirder and more depressing than..."
Weirder indeed! It's so open to interpretation though, am pretty sure there is more to the book than just the words.

Kenneth wrote: "I've read this before but will re-read with the group. I have it on kindle and also in a hardcover complete works of Kafka. The complete works of Kafka was on my 2016 reading list anyway."
Even I have 'Basic Works of Kafka' in print version but ended up reading the kindle version only.

Melanie wrote: "I just received a dual-language version of this, along with other Kafka short stories, in the mail. I will probably begin reading this weekend."
There's still debate about the various translations of the book, through the dual version maybe you'll be able to throw some extra light on the discussions.

I'll read it in German, let's see what that adds to the discussion :-)

Nina wrote: "I'll read it in German, let's see what that adds to the discussion :-)"
That's great, we can compare the differences then!

Long before Gregor Samsa, in another book, by a different author, the major character, also a young man, in the very first pages of the story says, “…I never managed to become anything: neither wicked nor good, neither a scoundrel nor an honest man, neither a hero nor an insect…”

I wonder, did F. Kafka say on reading those lines, “Ah!", or “Oh!”?
Or maybe he just never came across the book?

BTW, does anybody know what book I was referring to?

“Not just wicked, no, I never even managed to become anything: neither wicked nor good, neither a scoundrel nor an honest man, neither a hero nor an insect. And now I am living out my life in my corner, taunting myself with the spiteful and utterly futile consolation that it is even impossible for an intelligent man seriously to become anything, and only fools become something. Yes, sir, an intelligent man of the nineteenth century must be and is morally obliged to be primarily a characterless being; and a man of character, an active figure–primarily a limited being.”

“I swear to you, gentlemen, that to be overly conscious is a sickness, a real, thorough sickness. For man’s everyday use, ordinary human consciousness would be more than enough”

–Notes From the Underground

☯Emily wrote: "“Not just wicked, no, I never even managed to become anything: neither wicked nor good, neither a scoundrel nor an honest man, neither a hero nor an insect. And now I am living out my life in my co..."

:) Yes, that's him, the guy from the underground entertaining us now for more than 150 yrs..
But back to Kafka. I want to reread this story, this time in English. First time I read it in Russian (my native tongue). Unfortunately, I can't read German. With the literature of this type, the original language can be crucial for getting the kick of the book.

It sounds like the translation might also be important when reading this book.

☯Emily wrote: "It sounds like the translation might also be important when reading this book."

Oh, that is always important! I once made an experiment. I read War and Peace in Russian and surrounded myself by three different English translations of it. When I got to a passage like 'you can't possibly translate this', I would check all three versions. Eventually, (maybe after 20-sh samples), the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation won (on average scale); I guess mainly because it's most current translation, and also, that they left French intact as it is in the original (with footnotes, of course), which is very important TMHO. Still some poetic passages remained practically untraslatable. And that with the author (Leo Tolstoy) who is relatively easy to translate (TMHO again). With Nikolay Gogol, even more passages get lost in translation. And with the guys like Kafka, what I heard, the translater's skills are super challenged.

Bigollo wrote: "☯Emily wrote: "“Not just wicked, no, I never even managed to become anything: neither wicked nor good, neither a scoundrel nor an honest man, neither a hero nor an insect. And now I am living out m..."
It is a matter of record that Kafka was greatly influenced by Fyodor Dostevesky, there are similarities between the protagonists of Crime and Punishment[1866] and The Trial[1925].
Dostovesky's books were also a part of Kafka's personal library so the idea of Metamorphosis being inspired by one of his works is not far fetched.

☯Emily wrote: "It sounds like the translation might also be important when reading this book."
The fact that the translation of the very first line in the book which is essential to the whole story is still up for debate, but as I read in an article 'Translations are bridges and not walls.'

Quick question; how many pages is everyone's copy? I dug out a paperback I had with The Metamorphosis and other stories. I can't see anywhere in the edition that it has been abridged, but the story is around 40-ish small font pages. Does that sound about right? Just curious because when I quickly did a search on GR to see the page count it was giving 200 pages just for The Metamorphosis (?).

Thanks in advance!

RitaSkeeter wrote: "Quick question; how many pages is everyone's copy? I dug out a paperback I had with The Metamorphosis and other stories. I can't see anywhere in the edition that it has been abridged, but the story..."
The book is about 50-60 pages, decent font, I have no idea why the goodreads editions are showing 200 pages.

Maybe goodreads is showing for a Kafka short story collection that contains Metamorphosis? Anyway, yeah, mine is 50 pages. I will be reading an entire Kafka collection if anyone wants to join me when we are done with Metamorphosis.

RitaSkeeter wrote: "Quick question; how many pages is everyone's copy? I dug out a paperback I had with The Metamorphosis and other stories. I can't see anywhere in the edition that it has been abridged, but the story..."

I'm pretty sure the 200 pages includes Kakfa's short stories, of which Metamorphosis is one.

If we are ready to start discussions my "weekend" is Thursday and Friday so I can read it any time and be ready to start!

I'll start reading tomorrow or Friday. And yes, same here, mine is about 20 pages A4.

Thanks everyone. Sounds like my copy is okay then.

For interest; this is the GR version I was looking at (turned up first in a search). It must include other stories going by the page count, but that isn't clear from the title or blurb!

The Metamorphosis

Thanks again.

I was on a flight during the last two hours and decided to start reading during it. It was a surprisingly fast read and I'm done. So, if you want to start discussing I'm ready. Just need to digest a bit and try to figure out what I actually think. One thing is sure: it made me sad.

Nina wrote: "I was on a flight during the last two hours and decided to start reading during it. It was a surprisingly fast read and I'm done. So, if you want to start discussing I'm ready. Just need to digest ..."
Let's discuss it over the weekend, some more would've read it by then. What do you say?
Can't help but feel sad, the book is quite moving.

I will read it by Sunday and be ready to discuss. Possibly before then.

Sure, weekend is good.

Nina wrote: "I was on a flight during the last two hours and decided to start reading during it. It was a surprisingly fast read and I'm done. So, if you want to start discussing I'm ready. Just need to digest ..."

I finished it yesterday and yeah...me too. A very odd story, I think people could go searching forever to find the 'point' of it (if there even is just one point) but it was definitely sad. And funny. Not read Kafka before but know of him and the juxtaposition of the mundane (most of the inner monologue) and the crazy (the whole plot!) is just bizarre (but in a good way!).


Also this book also scored me a free seat on the tube during my rush hour commute from a man who spotted the cover, approved of my reading choice, and gave me his seat. So that was nice. Putting that on the list of reasons not to resort to a kindle for tube journeys.

Yet another advantage of reading the classics

There are so many questions popping up in my mind when I think about the book. Just some of them:

(view spoiler)[
Why did Gregor turn into the insect?
What would have happened if his family had reacted in a better way?
Was the end maybe the best possible end given how things developed?
How would I react?
Why did he turn into the insect?
(hide spoiler)]

The more I think about the book the more confused I get.

All in all I couldn't help but empathize with Gregor, and couldn't help but loathe Mr.Samsa.

What a desperately tragic little tale. I've only just finished reading, and think I'll read again in a few days, but preliminary thoughts to your questions Nina.

(view spoiler)[

1. I'm not really sure why an insect, I think it is just a metaphor to demonstrate Gregor had changed. He knew he was still him inside, but to everyone else he looked completely different and was no longer himself. I wonder if that hard beetle shell = the way he became closed off to people.

2. I think things would have ended differently for Gregor. He wouldn't have developed an infection that led to his death for starters. But he also wouldn't have been alone.

I have a lot of empathy for his family though. It's easy to see them as cruel, disinterested, or heartless, but it can't be easy to see your son become incapacitated to the point you no longer recognise him; to have him withdraw not only from you but from the world. On top of that you also lose your breadwinner and need to work out how to ensure you still stay sheltered and fed.

I think the family could have done a lot more - a LOT more - they could have brought Gregor back. But I can understand that they didn't react the way they did through cruelty, but because they were struggling with what was happening as well, and didn't know what to do.

We knew Gregor was still inside the beetle. They didn't know that though - to them, he was a beetle.

3. I think it was an unbelievably sad and tragic ending for Gregor. It's not the ending I would have liked (I'm an optimist!), but I think it was the only ending possible. What I thought was interesting was that with Gregor's death, the family seemed to find a sense of renewal and of hope. Perhaps because the burden of what had been happening had lifted (nb. Not suggesting Gregor was a burden, rather that caring for someone can be a load on ones shoulders, even when it is for someone much loved).

4. The million dollar question. Me, I'd be trying to find some way to communicate, some way to still have connection to my family and to the world around me. Gregor didn't really do either of those things.

I wonder if this tale is one of those blank slates where you bring your own lens to the table. When I read this, I saw it through the lens of my work and what I see is clinical depression. A young man who shuts himself off from the world; he can't sleep; he can't eat; he finds pleasure in few things. He knows he is still himself, but no one else sees that. No one else can find Gregor, and Gregor can't find his way out of himself to connect with others either. Instead he hides himself away.

I see his family struggling to know how to deal with that. We see his sister trying to find what he likes, and to make him as comfortable as she knows how. But it becomes too much; and she becomes angry and wants to get rid of him. He's just an empty shell (beetle allusion!) not Gregor at all. The mother loves him and wants to help him, but doesn't know how and is scared to try. The father just can't cope, is overwhelmed, and shuts down.

(hide spoiler)]

As I mentioned, just preliminary thoughts. May revise my opinion after another read!

RitaSkeeter wrote: "What a desperately tragic little tale. I've only just finished reading, and think I'll read again in a few days, but preliminary thoughts to your questions Nina.



1. I'm not really sure why an in..."


These are very interesting thoughts!!

(view spoiler)[
It was clear to me that the beetle was a metaphor but I struggled to see what for. Your interpretation makes sense to me. The fact that he doesn't communicate anymore - he tries but is not able - but even the fact that his family is even disgusted by him.

Yes, it is easy to condemn his family. Then again, I don't think they are bad people. And haven't we all had these moments where we are annoyed or fed up with someone we do actually love? That we wish to shake them and scream: Just do this or stop doing that or be faster or slower or this different or that different? I at least have. And I felt bad about feeling this way and tried my best not to say anything but it doesn't always work out. Because sometimes we just wish someone to be different from what they are. It's not good and it's not ok but it is also somehow human. I know this is not a good comparison, but what I try to say is: if we sometimes struggle with the ones we love for the way they are, how much harder must it be if someone we love changes so much that we don't recognise anything anymore in them from the person we love? It must be unbearably difficult to keep remining yourself constantly that this is still the person you loved. once more: this is not to excuse the behaviour. I am more saying that from the outside it is easy to say that this is not the right behaviour.

And also in my opinion Gregor himself struggles. Yes, there is some part of his former self left in him. At the same time he also develops 'characteristics' of the beetle, for example the food he likes. He has parts of both in himself.

(hide spoiler)]

1. I'm not really sure why an in..."

(view spoiler)[
I feel like Gregor's transformation into a literal vermin was driving home his insignificance in the world. Even before his metamorphosis he wasn't really considered particularly important or relevant to anyone. He'd been effectively ignored at work for 5 years, except for the times when the clerk or the boss or the people in the offices would say horrible, spiteful things to and about him.

His family didn't really seem to care about having him around, only about his being able to earn money - when they first knock on his door, they tell him off for being late for work, rather than asking if he's ok. After it becomes clear that he won't be able to work, it turns out that his family are completely capable of supporting themselves. The loss of his support doesn't really impact them much, even though he spent all those years struggling and striving for them.

I see it as being quite a poignant, relatable allegory for the fear that perhaps we're not as important in the world as we hope we are, and for the worry that if we suddenly became incapacitated somehow, would anybody really care?
(hide spoiler)]

It's a depressing little book, but in spite of that, it's not without humour, especially at the beginning. Some of the early scenes wouldn't be out of place in a Douglas Adams work.

Finally finished the other book I was reading so I will be reading this book today. If I don't finish it today I will finish it by tomorrow.

Holls wrote: "1. I'm not really sure why an in..."


I feel like Gregor's transformation into a literal vermin was driving home his insignificance in the world. Even before his metamorphosis he wasn't really con..."

That's a very interesting approach! And when reading your post I suddenly felt very grateful for having at least some people in my life that - I think at least - do think I am important. And maybe that is it also: focus on what is really important in your life, not the job or the money or the things your colleagues say. But make sure that there is at least one person who will do they can to pick you up when you fall. Because if you don't have this person, in the end you don't have anything.

Will do a reread, maybe coming weekend.

RitaSkeeter wrote: "What a desperately tragic little tale. I've only just finished reading, and think I'll read again in a few days, but preliminary thoughts to your questions Nina.



1. I'm not really sure why an in..."

Rita, I really enjoyed reading your take on Nina's questions, specially point two, I too am one of those who formed an opinion regarding the family rather easily.
(view spoiler)[
Just thinking of their own hardships and putting myself in their boots I don't really hate Grete and Mrs.Samsa's actions anymore.
Yet I still can't seem to justify Mr.Samsa's reaction to Gregor's situation.
His lack of gratitude towards what Gregor was going through to wipe off the losses and keep their family afloat, getting up at four and traveling to make the extra buck he was giving up on his passions and social life just to stride further as a model employee, while the father enjoyed long breakfasts and had enough time for newspaper and beer and to top it all his utter arrogance of pushing Gregor back in the room and hitting him with apples.
I saw a sense of fake pride in his character and despised it.
Plus even when he started working he was still burdening his wife and daughter emotionally, I mean come on even those two are working, give them a break!

As for Gregor I still feel really sorry for him, poor fellow never got to live the life he would have wanted to. The strange thing is the kind of connection that so many would connect with Gregor in today's time, the idea of making a living is important but your passions and social being is as important.

To me the idea of not giving up on life while making a living is subtly and beautifully highlighted in the story. (hide spoiler)]

@Nina - I agree. (view spoiler)[ It is a hard position to be in; both wanting to be supportive but the at times the push it has against our own needs. Then subsequent frustration; and then the guilt felt feel from getting frustrated when we want to be supportive. And so the cycle goes. (hide spoiler)]

@Dj - (view spoiler)[ Agree with your thoughts also. I think this is one of those books that I will see different things in and experience differently depending on what's happening in my own life.

I especially like your last sentence. Always something important to be reminded of. I agree with you that Gregor was burdened, and forgot to live (or more likely, didn't have the time to live). (hide spoiler)]

@Holls - love your analysis; very helpful - thank-you.

@kenneth (and anyone else reading) - look forward to your thoughts.

I really enjoy all your different thoughts, for sure I feel enriched in my reading experience thanks to discussing it with you! Thanks a lot for proposing it, Dj, it was an excellent pick!

Nina wrote: "I really enjoy all your different thoughts, for sure I feel enriched in my reading experience thanks to discussing it with you! Thanks a lot for proposing it, Dj, it was an excellent pick!"


Glad that the book is well received, the discussions really do enhance the reading experience!

Holls wrote: "1. I'm not really sure why an in..."


I feel like Gregor's transformation into a literal vermin was driving home his insignificance in the world. Even before his metamorphosis he wasn't really con..."

I got the same impression from the book. The German language version starts off saying that Gregor transformed into a "tremendous vermin," as opposed to the translated version in my book which states he turned into an "enormous bug." (view spoiler)[Kafka later has the cleaning lady call Gregor a Mistkäfer, which is indeed a beetle. I think Kafka chose the word "vermin" for a reason. His family expected him to live for them, but when he is incapable of providing for them, they begin to show their true feelings. It was not the fact that he could not earn money for them anymore that upset his family so much; it was that he was now considered ugly and a nuisance. His mother is the only one that I picked up any feelings that a family member should have for Gregor.

One thing that bothered me while reading the book is that his family members believed that Gregor could not understand them. Wouldn't it be a simple matter to just ask him to give a specific response and see if he performs? That alone makes me believe that the family wanted to believe that Gregor was not capable of understanding them. It would make it easier on their consciences when they openly showed their disgust towards him. (hide spoiler)]